Better Together in the EU
We’ve got a bit of a dodgy Freeview picture this morning thanks to the weather, but we THINK this is what we just heard on the news from all the Tories (and others) who want the UK to leave the EU, but Scotland to stay in the UK.
Thanks to many alert viewers for sending in some we didn’t quite catch.
“Why do we have to wait until 2017 or 2018 for this vote? The separatists have wanted this referendum all their lives, why don’t they just get on with it now?
“While they run scared, UK businesses will be crippled by uncertainty and foreign investors won’t want to invest in the country.”
“We need to know all the policies that the future UK government has in place if it wants to separate from the EU, what they’ll cost and how many jobs will be lost as a result. And we need to know all these things right now, in every last detail, in order that the electorate can know exactly what they’re voting for rather than being asked to endorse some British-nationalist pig in a poke.”
“What’s the point of becoming separate from the rest of the EU, only to remain in the single market? That’s not REAL independence, and will ultimately just lead to us coming back into a political union. Why go through all this fuss and trauma just to arrive back at the same position?”
“Although, of course, if we vote to leave the UK it’ll be irrevocable and forever, with no going back.”
“But we WILL eventually go back. Definitely.”
“We proudly fought two world wars alongside the French. Why do we want to tear ourselves apart from them now? Also, they might bomb our aircraft carriers if we separate.”
“49% of our exports go to EU countries. Obviously, this will stop if we leave the EU and all our companies will go bust.”
“A referendum on leaving and the matter of possible further devolution are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT issues. Before we discuss any potential changes in the relationship with Europe we have to first decide whether we’re in or out.”
“European culture will no longer be ours. We won’t be able to watch The Killing or Borgen or the Eurovision Song Contest if we’re a separate country. We’ll have to stick to morris dancing, The Only Way Is Essex and parochial, inward-looking programmes like EastEnders.”
“Will ex-pat Britons be given the vote? My aunt lives in Europe which means her half-Scottish sons will have their EU citizenship and identity ripped from them. Surely they must therefore be entitled to a say in what happens? And given this will affect the whole EU, shouldn’t everyone in the EU be allowed to vote on whether Britain should leave?”
“The timing of this referendum in 2017, is nothing more than a cynical attempt to capitalise on the 600th anniversary of Henry V’s invasion of France. Or, if it’s in 2018, the 100th anniversary of the surrender of Germany in World War 1.”
“Britain is too poor and too small to go it alone. It couldn’t even bail out its banks without creating hundreds of billions of pounds of imaginary money!”
“Basically anyone who wants to leave the EU is just a swivel-eyed anti-German racist who’s watched ‘The Dambusters’ too often.”
“We’ll no longer have a voice at the top table. Look at all the things Neil Kinnock and Peter Mandelson have achieved for Britain at the European Parliament. Do you really want to lose that influence?”
“If the UK left the EU, there’d be nowhere to put Europe’s nuclear submarine force, leaving the whole continent completely defenceless against attack from [SOMEONE FILL IN HERE PLEASE].”
“What if people in England vote to leave the EU but people in Scotland vote against? Should they be allowed to stay in the EU on their own and keep all the oil? Ha ha, that’d be ridiculous! Wait, I’m getting confused now. I might have to go for a lie down.”
We wouldn’t mind being a fly on the wall in “Better Together” HQ today. Our guess is that the Unionist alliance must be a little bit strained and tense over the cream teas.
Can I add that one can never watch “The Dambusters” too often. I particularly like Guy Gibson’s delightful black labrador, what’s it called?
Glad to see the SNP website is, unusually, up to date on this..
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2013/jan/eu-speech-no-campaign-impaled-own-arguments
Do you agree that Britain should be an independent country?
Absolute fracking love it. Ready made arguments courteousy the independence-deniers.
Ireland will be forced to take Dara O’Briain back and France may be forced to bomb British airports to counter terrorism.
Swello says: Do you agree that Britain should be an independent country?
Heheh, classic.
“I particularly like Guy Gibson’s delightful black labrador, what’s it called?”
“Trigger”. I especially enjoy the bit where it falls through the bar.
Do you agree Britain should become an independent country?
The above is clearly a scurrilous attempt to solicit a YES vote by the separatists! It is infested with cognitive chutes!
There’s no end to the fun you and your family can have playing UNIONIST HYPOCRISY, the new game from Mattel!
So what currency will they use? Will they still want to stick with our pound or will they apply to use the Yankee dollar?
Will Guernsey , Jersey and the isle of man wish to separate and join the EC.
I guess this is why Labour in Scotland are running with the Scottish NHS loopholes crisis non story; keep the stupid Jocks distracted while the Brit-big boys deal with the Euro in-out crisis.
These are interesting times.
I hope all will enjoy hoisting them by their many many petards.
Britain will become another Greece. Some say Cameron is just another Mugabe and that Britain will become like Zimbabwe.
Funny thing is, here are the Tories handing, not just a golden egg, but a Hen that lays them over to Yes Scotland, proof that the Tories will choose to do whats best for the Tory party and not the UK, even to the point of contributing the dissolution of the union.
As Rev points out on in the last article too, Labour pretty much have to support a referendum on the EU now, handing the Yes Scotland team another Hen that lays Golden eggs, its either that or lose the next UK election. Even if this particular egg laying Hen lays eggs that grow up to be Golden Unicorns. But as we have seen since the 90’s nu-Labour are only interested in whats best for nu-Labour.
What if the UK votes to leave the EU, but Shetland votes to stay in?
Wir sind #BesserZusammen ins EU.
It’s an actual fact that IKEA will leave if we separate from the EU.
It will be impossible to have a bacon and cheese sandwich, as there’ll be no more Danish bacon or Dutch edam, and you can forget about that Italian wine to go with it. Don’t think you can drive to Lidl in your German car either.
Everyone will have to shop in Costcutters and live off tripe.
I always thought it was ‘Digger’.
This article is class.
Its the uncertainty that this seperatist referendum creates, really bad for buisiness.
Of course it is only in the remake of the film Dambusters that the dog is called “Trigger”! That’s obviously done deliberately to remind us all that we are Better Together with the PMs finger on the nuclear trigger!
When the original film was made we didn’t need reminding as the Tories had just got 50.1% of the Scottish vote (and 36 of the 72 seats) at the 1955 General Election.
You have to admit, it’ll be funny watching the gymnastic efforts made to try to say that the Scotland/ Eu questions are different.
Totally different.
In no way similar.
Completely unsimilar.
Similar in no way whatsoever.
Two differently-unsimilar-unconnected (and did I say dis-similar?) things.
Quick break out the Thesaurus…
Swello:”Do you agree that Britain should be an independent country?”
That’s a biased question in my opinion. Solicits a ‘Yes’ over a ‘No’.
Will my wife need a passport to visit her mother in France?
At the moment she just needs her identity card.
Nigel
Does that mean Clegg is Cameron’s robot? That’s one I will believe.
It will be impossible to have a bacon and cheese sandwich, as there’ll be no more Danish bacon or Dutch edam, and you can forget about that Italian wine to go with it.
Reading that sentence made me THIS hungry!
Cheers Doug:}
This sort of British nationalism stinks to high heaven. It is redolent of stench of Nazi pyres? It’s supporters are driven by hatred of the French and Poles. Theirs is a race-based credo. A manifesto of bigotry.
The world is coalescing and these backward-looking malcontents want to wallow in the mud of their ignorant tribalism.
Cameron’s doing it deliberately 😉
Tim says:
23 January, 2013 at 12:39 pm
“What if the UK votes to leave the EU, but Shetland votes to stay in?”
.
Priceless!
With oubts about Euro membership.
The loss of Trident.
The accelerating privatisation of the NHS in England and Wales.
One by one the Dependency Tendency are having their favourite tattie-bogles removed by events in Londonia.
And the biggie, the relative UK prosperity mythos , is about to explode when the UK loses its AAA status and we are hurled over the fiscal cliff like lemmings over the white cliffs of Dover.
Already it is clear that free education, free care for the elderly, free bus passes will disappear with a No vote.
People won’t need to be delusional to vote YES but they will need to be deluded. Somehow, against the odds, we must prevent that.
Britons will no longer be able to receive Wallander.
Where are you Darling, Sarwar, Lamont, Curran, both Davidsons, all the Scottish Liberal Democrats etc, McMillan and the CBI, BBC Scotland? What bunker are you hiding in? As Delia Smith once said, “Let’s be havin’ you!”
We’ll, that’s another 60,000 yes votes in 2014 from EU nationals alone. 1.4% could swing it.
🙂
The thing the separists keep saying is: what is the EU’s substantive positive case for Britain remaining in the Union?
Of course the answer is, it is they who want to change the status quo, and it is for them to make the case for leaving. The case for Britain staying in the EU is evident to all and requires no delineation.
2017 is the 800th anniversary of the First Baron’s War. By September the war is ended in England by the Treaty of Kingston upon Thames: French and Scots are asked to leave. How ironic.
@s_s
You say Cameron is doing it deliberately. Do you mean he is doing it to fuck up the No campaign, or to buy UKIP votes at the next general election? Or both?
Lidl and Aldi forced to leave the UK if there is a No vote.
An unforeseen effect of Cameron’s recklessness in EU matters is that it could, quite probably, bring our friends in the EU on-board with the Scottish YES campaign, perhaps being more vocal supporters than they have been of late. Cameron, surely, is making no friends in Europe over this.
I heard an EU official (van Rompuy?) say recently that a UK exit from the EU could be utterly disastrous for both parties.
If Britain tears the EU apart they will be but an insignificant little state with no leverage in the world. As part of the EU they have influence far in excess of their size.
In the event of a terrorist attack on Britain, the forces of the EU MAY HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO BOMB IT’S AIRPORTS!
@Major
If Cameron had left in to 2018 it would have been the centenary anniversary of the end of the First World War.
@Muttley
I can’t help feel ‘both’. That’s one hell of a torpedo he’s just put into the Better Together Campaign.
Personally, I doubt they’ll hold a UK EU referendum, but this will force Labour to follow suit, making the whole anti-independence issue of the EU – something the better together campaign have made such a fuss over – look like a joke.
@Stevie Cosmic
Excellent point on potential EU support for Scottish independence.
@Muttley
“Where are you Darling, Sarwar, Lamont, Curran, both Davidsons, all the Scottish Liberal Democrats etc, McMillan and the CBI, BBC Scotland? What bunker are you hiding in? As Delia Smith once said, “Let’s be havin’ you!”
I thought you were going down the road of the famous Norwegian football commentary on ‘Winston Churchill, Maggie Thatcher, Lord Nelson, Lord Beaverbrook etc.. your boys took a hell of a beating!’
‘Tis indeed a great day for the Yes camp.
To paraphrase Bjørge Lillelien’s fantastic commentary after Norway beat England
“It’s absolutely unbelievable! We’ve beaten England! The Brits. England, birthplace of giants – Lord Nelson, Lord Beaverbrook, Sir Winston Churchill, Sir Anthony Eden, Clement Attlee, Henry Cooper, Lady Diana! We’ve beaten them all!
Maggie Thatcher, can you hear me? Maggie Blair, Brown, Darling, Michael Kelly, Alan Cochrane, BBC, Terry Kelly, those intellectual giants the Alexanders… have I missed anybody out? I have a message for you: We beat you. Your boys took a hell of a beating!”
In a boxing contest the ref would stop it now and give us the tie.
Will all of the EU have a vote in Cameron’s referendum? It does effect them after all. I suspect the EU may call for a second referendum to ‘validate’ the result.:-)
It is no accident that the craft Cameron has chosen 2017 for this stupid distraction of a referendum nobody wants.
As most of you will know, this is the 223rd anniversary of the battle of the Glorious First of June is fought, the engagement between Britain and France during the French Revolutionary Wars.
This is a crass attempt to stir-up jingoistic patriotism by the sly Briton. He is manipulating this for his own self aggrandizement and leading the people of Britain to ruin.
Has Cameron had advice from the Law Officers in the context of the debate?
“Nigger”. I had to put it in quotes or be accused …
from right wing Allan Massie:
alexmassie?@alexmassie
Cameron today has torn down 2 Unionist arguments: 1. Uncertainty! 2. Scotland will *have* to join the euro. Good day for the SNP. #indyref
Wait for the poll boost for the Tories as UKIP voters return home.
What was it that Panelbase poll said? I think it was that if it looked like the Tories would win in 2015 then there’d be a strong majority for Yes in 2014.
I think this is fantastic. David Cameron of course has chosen 2017 for an in/out EU referendum because by that point both the countries of Scotland and rUK will have re-negotiated their EU membership. I think the establishment believe we will leave the union.
If Scotland votes Yes in 2014, a Tridentless rUK voting to leave the EU would see its seat on the UN Security Council pretty swiftly removed (and possibly given to the EU). If that day comes I shall breakfast well as I read The Telegraph and Daily Mail.
The French won’t buy cheddar cheese any more, the Germans won’t buy Walls bangers, the Belgians won’t buy Cadbury’s chocoloate and the Dutch won’t want Adele, Lady Gaga or warm Red Barrel.
I live in Latvia, but I love Manchester Unitedand and have feel a strong affinity with the British people. Sepratists tearing apart the Union would affect the all of us and it is only right that all of the people of the EU should have a vote.
““Nigger”. I had to put it in quotes or be accused …”
We knew that, man 😀
@s_s
I can’t help feel ‘both’. That’s one hell of a torpedo he’s just put into the Better Together Campaign.
Certainly is that indeed. Pity we don’t have a picture of Alastair Darling’s coupon after watching Cameron’s speech.
@Training Day
Both are applicable in this situation.
Barroso has said:
“A new state will have to join a long queue for membership of the planet, that is to say that a new state is a new state in the context of international law. I see no state leaving the planet, but I see many wanting to join.”
Barroso was later observed running backwards around a Ferris wheel.
Frances, excellent point. The end of the UK Union will mean that the rUK will have to renegotiate with the EU anyway… (despite the NO crowd pretending that would be absurd). 😉
interesting to note that the telegraph are running a story on how oil will last another 100 years lol, i fully expect the MSM to big up (and in the process completely contradict their current stance) our ability to rely on Scotlands assets.
It will be like living in 2 parallel universes, one where during discussions on Scottish independence the oil will run out in 30 years but during discussions on how the UK will survive outwith the EU the UK oil will last 100 years.
Rev Stu says: We knew that, man
I wondered who would break ranks first. 🙂
We knew that, man
I like to play Ernie in relation to Eric.
Europe isn’t a democracy in the traditional sense
Europe is our No. 1 customer – if we were to be independent they would become our No 1 competitor.
Pom – Frits – bag-o-chips – we’re better together
“I am British and I am Europoean. I consider myself to be a true Brit”.
Here’s an easy solution to everyone’s problems:
Make Scotland the sole successor state in 2014. We get to stay in, rUK gets straight out. Everybody wins.
@dads
I see what you were doing: playing all the right notes, just not necessarily in the right order.
Alistair Darling must be ruing the day he agreed to be the ‘leader’ of the Bletherthegithers – can’t wait to see him and Brewer having another of their chats. ‘Where, oh where should we start darling…’
Doug Daniel says: Make Scotland the sole successor state in 2014. We get to stay in, rUK gets straight out. Everybody wins.
A simple and elegant solution.
@dadsarmy
Yes, you can be both British and European. It’s terrible to be forced to choose between the two by the separatists.
Don’t you just hate these small minded separatists?
That wee jowly Cameron wanting to rip us apart from our European partners.
I think that Britain is too wee and too stupid to go it alone.
Doug Daniel says: Make Scotland the sole successor state in 2014. We get to stay in, rUK gets straight out. Everybody wins.
A simple and elegant solution.
No its bloody not!!!
That would make us solely responsible for all national debt!!!
I’ll keep the 8.4% option instead
Seasick Dave
It’s certainly too poor.
Crivens!
Scott – ah yes, a slight oversight there!
Although those suggesting Scotland will be treated like a new state are less quick to suggest we’d therefore have no debt either…
Dave wants to create an isolationist dictatorship with him has King Cameron.
Those evil separatists want to destroy the union.
@MajorBloodnok
That’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it!
I don’t think that Scotland should be placing orders for its Navy with foreign shipyards south of the border.
Its not the done thing.
We need to always have absolute certainty, that is why we are waiting four years to hold the EU referendum.
I’ve got a nasty dose of flu and I feel like shit, but Cameron and his madness… and all the fantastic responses, here and on Bella, have cheered me up immensely.
Way to go. You couldn’t make this up…
The thing is that amongst the English the man has probably made a good call; he may well rise in the opinion polls. A conservative government may once again be a possibility… which is grist to our mills.
I never thought I’d say it, but THANK YOU MR CAMERON… you idiot.
Does anyone know if Alex. Salmond and David Cameron play chess?
Removing themselves from the EU would see the loss of all the protected food names (PDO, PGI and TSG). Just think, anyone would be able to make English wine. Oh.
Dont those British know they can walk tall in the European Union. Just ask Wendy ‘the brain the size of a planet’ Alexander.
Someone ask Davison MP if Pollokshields asks to be in EU and Drumpchapel out EU, this is no problem.
Dunno if this has been asked, but is anyone keeping an eye on the Better Together site today to see if changes/deletions on certain words or arguments occur after todays’ events? Their Twitter feed has been silent for a good while now…
Severin Carrell has a new article in the Gaurdian:
“Cameron accused … please fill in the blanks”.
Those who want Britain to withdraw from the EU are predicating their opinions on the mistaken belief that Scotland will still be part of the British Union and they will be assuming that all of Scotland’s wealth (fish, coal, oil, renewable energy sources etc) will be theirs to use.
What do you think their opinions would be about withdrawing from the EU if Scotland was to be taken out of the equation?
Folks, you have to visit this story on the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jan/23/ed-miliband-in-out-eu-referendum?commentpage=1
Don’t bother reading the article, just go to the comments.
It is just priceless. 😀
james morton says:
23 January, 2013 at 1:39 pm
“Europe isn’t a democracy in the traditional sense”
Correct. It has an unelected commission that decides policy. And a rubber stamping ‘parliament’ that rubber stamps the policy with majority voting. Similar to the USSR ( Frau Merkel is former GDR youth leader)
“Europe is our No. 1 customer – if we were to be independent they would become our No 1 competitor.”
We already compete with Europe with all of our goods and services. Norway is part of the single market via the EFTA but maintains it’s independence.
“Independence for Scotland outwith the EU !”
“Down with the NWO and Agenda 21 ! “
Mike Weir: “Why is it that the Prime Minister thinks that Scotland’s two year referendum process is too long, but that he thinks his five year near-marathon is just fine?”
David Cameron: “It’s a very easy answer; which is that the Scottish Nationalists, in my view misguidedly, want to leave the United Kingdom as it is. I will be arguing and I think right across the house we’ll be arguing, that Scotland should stay in the United Kingdom. What I want to see in Europe is a changed Europe, then we ask the people.”
So, according to David Cameron, all that negotiating to ‘beef up’ the Scotland Bill – wanting crown estate powers, tax powers, economic levers etc, followed by all the arguments about wanting devomax on the ballot paper (i.e. to reform the structure of the UK) were completely different from him, now, wanting to reform the structure of the EU. It seems to me that his argument falls flat on its face. The SNP tried to change the Scotland Bill and it tried to include devo max, but they were flatly rejected. Now the people are being asked – David Cameron should be happy since it completely matches his scenario for the EU referendum!
Furthermore, he didn’t actually answer the question that Weir put to him, of course.
I just noticed the title Rev: “Better Together in the EU” you beat me to that. I guess it’ll be led by Alistair Darling. On a serious note, the SNP as a political party need to capitalise on this in a hurry, while it’s still a hot issue. I think they should declare somthing like:
“In the event of a YES vote, negotiations with the EU should be concluded by 2016. We expect that Scotland will remain in the EU, and for the time being, that will be our policy. We will keep an eye on the UK EU referendum, and once it’s complete we will consider holding a Scotland referendum on EU membership. It may be that if the rUK leaves the EU we would want to do so too, or stay in the EU. This will have to be considered carefully at the time, but just to repeat, our policy will be to stay in the EU meanwhile.”
I think that has the effect of including 100% of voters in Scotland, regardless of their / our views on the EU.
dads – I’m not sure such a statement wouldn’t just lead to an open goal becoming a missed sitter.
Remember that it’s not just unionists we’re battling here – it’s also the media, and they’ll take any opportunity to misrepresent what the SNP say. I think a statement similar to yours would just be interpreted as “SNP say vote Yes to become independent to stay in the EU, but then pledge to just do whatever England does anyway.” I think it would be far better to emphasise the point that, between 2014 and 2016, we’ll be negotiating our terms with the EU, and that in doing so they’ll make sure we’re joining on terms that suit us.
I think it would be better if one of the other Yes parties took a position similar to what you propose – after all, the Greens are quite Eurosceptic (in the proper sense, rather than the Europhobia it is used to describe) and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Socialists are not too enamoured with it either (as it’s often seen as being too focussed on the free market.)
I agree with Doug Daniel. This is going to be a very long campaign. There will be moments of doubt along the way. We should ponder that we have a one-question referendum to win, which means the unionists have risked everything on the result. They can only offer Jam Tomorrow now. Also, the media and the No campaign went to town on the EU issue late last year, which was two years away from the vote. Now we have a Tory government indicating there will be a referendum on the EU. This is a big problem for the No campaign now because they kept on talking about uncertainty, isolationism, and separatism of independence. With one speech that has been blown out of the water.
Actually, following on from that comment, we should bear in mind there are nine possible types of voter here:
1. Pro-indy, pro-EU
2. Pro-indy, anti-EU
3. Pro-indy, not sure on EU
4. Anti-indy, pro-EU
5. Anti-indy, anti-EU
6. Anti-indy, not sure on EU
7. Not sure on indy, Pro-EU
8. Not sure on indy, anti-EU
9. Not sure on either matter
1, 2 and 3 are in the bag, and I would suggest even the staunchest Europhobic nationalist would rather have indy Scotland in the EU than remain in the UK with no chance of indy for a generation at least. But can we guarantee a pro-EU indy voter wouldn’t be put off by a sudden lurch towards an anti-EU stance?
4 could possibly be tempted towards indy if their EU feelings are stronger than their UK feelings.
5 have no reason to suddenly become pro-indy if the SNP say we’ll have a referendum on the EU, because they’re getting that with the UK.
6 would be tough to win over regardless of the position on the EU, but at least a different EU stance gives us a unique selling point.
7 could be persuaded to vote for indy if we highlight that staying in the UK guarantees an EU exit.
8 would go for the position that looks most likely to lead to an EU exit – and like grouping 5 they get that by sticking in the UK.
9 probably just don’t care about the EU either way.
So of the six groups we’re looking to get votes from, two of them are write-offs, while a strong pro-EU stance could tempt two of them, maybe even three. An anti-EU stance tempts none of them, since we don’t offer them anything they aren’t already getting from the UK, but it does put off those two who could be tempted with a pro-EU stance.
There are those such as Margo who will argue Scotland should get out of the EU. I’d say let them speak, rather than try to get the SNP to just offer the same as the Tories.
And so the game changes. Milliband and Labour left to look like clowns at PMQ’s, whilst Cameron pleases his Euro sceptic chums in the Tory party. The fact is, this is the first sign of the way in which I have always believed Cameron will skewer Labour given half the chance.
Labour, especially in Scotland have been left holding the bitter together baby, and must surely be wondering why they have sided with the Conservatives. In 2014, it will be Labour who will be shafted by the entire process. They will be found dumped by the Conservatives, and found bound and gagged by three years of anti Scottish ‘No, No, No rhetoric lying at the side of the road somewhere North of London.
Darling, Curran and Lamont are quite literally sacrificing their party, Labour, in some twisted self centred self preservation exercise which they cannot win.
I’m getting some popcorn and will settle back to watch as Lying London Labour literally shaft themselves many times over during the next year.
“David Cameron of course has chosen 2017 for an in/out EU referendum because by that point both the countries of Scotland and rUK will have re-negotiated their EU membership. I think the establishment believe we will leave the union.”
Very good point. I hadn’t considered that. But yes, if there’s a Yes vote in 2014, both parties will be re-negotiating as separate, new countries anyway. Which leaves the door open for the Tories to win on a “vote for us; we’ll promise a referendum” card, pulling back the UKIP voters. But also not to hold a referendum on the grounds that “well, we’ve re-negotiated and got what we wanted”.
The theory that the Tories and establishment are secretly on board with independence, and Better Together is nothing but a massive bear-trap for Labour in Scotland is still looking plausible.
@R Louis
Labour, especially in Scotland have been left holding the bitter together baby, and must surely be wondering why they have sided with the Conservatives. In 2014, it will be Labour who will be shafted by the entire process. They will be found dumped by the Conservatives, and found bound and gagged by three years of anti Scottish ‘No, No, No rhetoric lying at the side of the road somewhere North of London.
Darling, Curran and Lamont are quite literally sacrificing their party, Labour, in some twisted self centred self preservation exercise which they cannot win.
Yes, you could also point to Cameron calling the No campaign the Yes/Alastair Darling’s campaign. Arguably the Tories have already shafted and dumped Scottish Labour, even before today’s speech. They have given the money to Darling and said ‘It’s your job to save Scotland from independence.’ At the same time, the Tories are trying to pull the UK out of the EU. Scottish Labour types you mentioned are classic careerists, they love their London lifestyles. More and more it looks like Scottish Skier’s theory is looking correct, that the Tories in London are deliberately sabotaging the No campaign.
I have to agree Muttley, it does seem like the Tories might happily sabotage the NO campaign, if it bests Labour electorally. It isn’t so far fetched either, when you think about it. The senior Tory MP’s have the same careerist self, self, self mindset as those in Labour. My honest opinion is, that if it will benefit the Tories, then all Cameron has to do is make it appear to the casual Telegraph reader that he wants dearly to keep Scotland, whilst all the while using Scottish independence to trash Labour. To the tories, Scotland is an electoral liability, not an asset.
Darling et al. will regret the day they jumped into bed with the Conservatives.
What happens if Govan votes to stay in the UK AND to stay in the EU? Will we still be able to use the Subway?
I’m surprised Milliband and co never saw this coming. There are two irresistable forces now driving conservative policy on Europe: 1) Protection of the London Banker Mafia from proposed EU legislation, and 2) the potential immigration of tens of thousands of Romanians and Bulgarians into the country (they are still smarting about all the poles that got in. Labour should have tried to beat the Tories to it and offer a referendum. In spite of the tough talk today, Labour will soon panic and offer an in/out referendum. Unfortunately, it’s too late for Labour now, they will be seen for what they are, remember the 11th hour promised council tax freeze in 2011? Labour well behind the game as usual. The silly party?
Macart – Those comments over at thre Guardian you sign posted- Jings! I having a cup of tea to recover before I go over to the Telegraph for more pointing and laughing 🙂
O/T
Severin Carroll’s latest article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jan/23/support-scottish-independence-slumps-devolution#start-of-comments
“Although, of course, if we vote to leave the UK it’ll be irrevocable and forever, with no going back.”
Should that not be EU rather than UK?
Link does not work, but the article is on the Guardian site. I wonder why he chose today to run this story?
Lots of greetin-faced Labour politicians on TV, starting to contradict each other. Looks like the penny has just dropped – Labour have been well and truly shafted. The Lib dems are bearing up remarkably well, they seem to be a bit bemused by it all. Probably their low expectations have dampened down the pain somewhat.
Can anybody find the Guardian story about the decrease in support for independence? The link does not work, but the story disappeared from the main page, and I can’t find the article of Carroll’s for some reason?
The link says that it’s been embargoed, odd.
It was a story about a survey that had run from last July-November. Independence got only 23%, sample was around 1,200 voters in Scotland. Quotes from Blair Jenkins, Lamont, Curtice. It had just opened for comments, and was only a headline on the front page for a few minutes. It then disappeared for some reason? This is part of it I copied because I was going to comment on it.
John Curtice, the lead author of the Scottish Centre for Social Research study, which interviewed 1,229 people, said that before devolution hardline supporters of independence had highlighted the paradox now faced by Salmond.
For hardliners, “this was always a trap of devolution: it’s success would help the system. While Salmond’s effectiveness has given them this unparalleled opportunity to hold the referendum, there’s this paradoxical backdrop that grievance about the union has become less. That has made the referendum rather more difficult to win.”
You know what’s amusing about all this (on topic)? We can already look on the eccentric goings on at Westminster from afar – ’cause we’re sitting in the lifeboat with all the rum and rations as the good ship UK goes down….
The great threat from Europe is actually tightening the very loose banking controls. This is a threat to the City. Again UK government policy is to protect the City crooks at all costs and to the detriment of everyone else.
Getting more interesting by the day.
Glad I bunged WoS some cash.
What the fuck does an embargoed report mean?
Very strange and cryptic on the Guardian site,
“This article has been taken down as it breached an embargo.”
My dictionary gives
“ban the publication of (documents), as for security or copyright reasons”
Would like to know more. Where are the investigative journalists when you need them?
Who did the banning and why?
Probably the SSA is embargoed by the ESDS until midnight or something. I think that would just be normal practice (?).
@ AndrewFraeGovan
If worst comes to worse you can aye use the ‘subway’ shoppie inInverness!
Oh that’s a hoot! Just saw a Conservative Party Political Broadcast on the tv. David Cameron faces the camera and, with an intense stare, declares “People don’t just want to hear from ME, they want to hear the FACTS!”
Don’t know who writes his speeches but they should have test-run that one.
”
MajorBloodnok says:
Can I add that one can never watch “The Dambusters” too often. I particularly like Guy Gibson’s delightful black labrador, what’s it called?
Also liked (not) the bit when they are picking the pilots for the raid and having gone through all the commonwealth ones, one officer turns to the other and says “lets not forget the english”. Always made me wonder why my dad fought in WWII.
This is fantastic. What a boost to the Yes campaign! the Better Together lot must be in a mad panic of damage limitation, back peddling, PR and instilling double-think as a desperate last measure.
Are we sure that Alex isn’t the UK prime minister in secret too? The SNP couldn’t have crafted this any better if they were writing tory policy.
I read the guardian article and i am confused about its removal as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_embargo
Guardian article can be read on news sniffer.
Muttley79- Guardian article is available through Google currents using a tablet, usual fluff piece. The poll compares against devo-max, “56% want to run taxation, 64% the welfare system. Two-thirds want Hollyrood to control nearly all Scotlands affairs”. Basically talking up jam tomorrow without any real info.
Google cache of the Carrell Guardian article
http://tinyurl.com/aql6s97
not sure why it’s been embargoed.
Doug Daniel
Maybe. Seems to me that there isn’t much difference between Scotland and the rest of the UK when it comes to the EU – most would like to leave. Those who feel more strongly about that thatn indy, might vote NO or change their mild preference for Indy to a NO, because they see their chance of getting out of the EU by staying in the UK, whereas accoeding to the SNP there’s no chance.
I think the SNP should keep the door open.
What? They want to have a referendum on separating from the most successful union the world has ever known? A union that can accommodate 27 member states – oh no, that can’t be. Everyone knows that the UK is the most successful, involving just 2 countries, one province and one principality. That can’t be right, can it?
Also, why is it that Westminster says that an indepedent Scotland can’t be really independent if it’s in the EU, while currently the UK is in the EU and claims to be independent. By their logic, the UK is not an independent state?
Typical London Brigadoom Empire Biscuit Tin mentality – or what thinks the one and only, the great anti-Scottish / Irish Republican / Brit Unionist / Eurpophile / Globalist: Terry Kelly…?!
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=12368
An interesting session by the committee for Separation.
As I said on Better Nation earlier…..
Quite a big day and a real fork in the road for “Britain” and for Europe.
It seems to me that this is a fairly clear signal that Cameron and the Conservatives are already preparing for (and in their hearts, wishing for) a post-Scottish Independence future. An EU withdrawal really would be the start of an English National Party in all but name.
The choice for pro-EU Scottish voters is clear, only a YES in 2014 can deliver a continuing and engaged relationship with Europe.
Another day closer today I reckon.
IS THIS THE TIPPING POINT?
VOTE YES 2014.
Emm, from the cached Guardian:
“The survey found support for staying in the UK now stands at 72%”
“Two-thirds want Holyrood to control nearly all Scotland’s affairs.”
Does this include the 23% in favour of Indy I ask myself?
“it hit 23% in 2010 and again last year.”
So this is a 2011 report! Maybe it’s this old one:
http://www.scotcen.org.uk/study/scottish-social-attitudes-2011
Doesn’t make a lot of sense, but then Severin has a habit of using old material. Perhaps the embargo was put on by the Guardian because of sheer luncay!
Just to make the point more from the figures. If 23% want independence and 72% want to stay in the UK, then that’s 5% don’t know.
But if 66% want Devo-Max on top of that, that would leave only 6% Status Quo – the definite NO vote. So basically spin reporting can be unspun in seconds.
Since Devo MAx is not on the ballot sheet, that would leave 23% YES, 6% NO and 61% undecided. Which I doubt somehow!
Maybe the survey hasn’t been released yet?
@ Dadsarmy
I also had a look at the Severin article that´s currently disappeared.
Maybe I´m reading it all wrongly or am looking in the wrong places but I also cut and pasted the quotes from the article into google.
Most of these quotes from the article simply lead back to the self same article where it´s been linked to by other sources and also some other quotes link to old articles from months ago. I remember doing the same thing with another Severin Carrell article a few months ago to source the original quotes and they only ever led back to the self-same Mr Carrell article, no official quote sources were ever found.
What is more the Scottish Social Attitudes study link doesn´t show any of the report the article purports to quote. It only shows other previous reports.
Curiouser and curiouser.
http://www.scotcen.org.uk/media/965810/ssas-2011-scottish-gov.pdf
Use that link to get to the report summary
Attitudes towards the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament were significantly more positive in 2011 compared with 2010
71% in 2011, compared with 61% in 2010, trusted the Scottish Government ‘just about always’ or ‘most of the time’ to act in Scotland’s best interests
60% in 2011, compared with 42% in 2010, felt that having a Scottish Parliament gives ordinary people more say in how Scotland is governed
Perceptions of the UK Government remained more negative than those of the Scottish Government. For example, just 18% trusted the UK Government to act in Scotland’s best interests.
Growing the economy remained the most commonly chosen priority for the Scottish Government (chosen by 36%, in comparison with 17% who chose the next most popular option, ‘cut crime’).
Views of the economy were a little more positive in 2011 compared with 2010, though the balance of opinion remained negative (57% felt the economy had got weaker in the last 12 months). More (67%, compared with 54% in 2010) felt the standard of living had fallen in the last year.
Mean satisfaction with people’s own standard of living changed little between 2007 and 2011 (7.79 in 2007; 7.75 in 2011).
The most common view of standards in the health service, education and public transport in Scotland was that they had stayed the same in the previous year.
56% were ‘very’ or ‘quite satisfied’ with the way the NHS runs nowadays.
More people felt that government rather than private companies would provide more cost effective (56%) and better quality (60%) services for older people who need regular help. This picture was reversed in relation to charities or not-for-profit providers – 56% felt charities would provide a more cost effective service than government, and 54% that they would provide better quality services.
While 51% of people said that the government should always pay for personal care for older people, 46% thought who pays should depend on how much money a person has at their disposal.
But in actual fact it doesnt seem to be lifted from that report either…
A mystery then
Mmm, the one I found (I’m looking at) is (2011) at
http://www.scotcen.org.uk/media/794001/john-curtis.pps
I’ll save it, as it took 2 or 3 attempts to get it.
I’m thinking maybe Severin trotted out an old article, ready to update with his new spin on it, and it got publishesd by mistake. Perhaps as said, embargoed till midnight or some other date.
I found the 2010 version of the report but the 2011 one doesnt seem to be published yet.
Re Severin Carrell’s latest anti-Scottish independence propaganda piece in the Guardian:
Having followed M4arkyboy’s Wikipedia link (above) it seems like the Guardian in its rush to expound ‘more bad news’ about the chances of a ‘Yes’ vote in the 2014(!) referendum jumped the gun in publishing before an agreed upon time, thus ‘breaking the embargo’!
The obvious conclusion is that investigative and fearless Guardian journalist aka “Scotland correspondent” Severin Carrell has based his ‘article’ on a press release…Quelle-horeur!, Surprise-surprise!, Who knew?!, etc.!!
By the way, I wonder what his take is on his fellow Guardian/Observer ‘Scotland commentator’ Kevin McKenna’s “Scottish independence is fast becoming the only option” article?
Just seen this from a poster on the Guardian’s “Ideas for 23 -24 January” thread: a copy and paste from Carrell’s Twitter account:
Severin Carrell@sevincarrell
@BaffieBox there was an inadvertent embargo breach.
Production issue. It’ll be live again at 22.30.
So, folks, if you have the time, the inclination, or both, to, yet again, rip apart another Severin Carrell article BTL Guardian at 22.30 tonight it is then!
What I think would be a laugh is if Nicola Sturgeon maed an announcement about the Severin article, before it was published. When asked how she managed it she was reported as saying: “The NO campaign insist we use a crystal ball so we got ourselves one, and now really can see into the future. In 2016 we’re Independent, and it’s absolutely wonderful.”.
@Dal Riata
Thanks, I might just do that. It might be an incentive to get our self-assessments finished and celebrate!
@dadsarmy
Indeed, dads., indeed! 🙂
Wow
http://www.scotcen.org.uk/media/794004/rachel-ormston.pps
Scotland hard done by on spending? (2011) 42% less than fair, 39% pretty much fair, 11% more than fair, but that’s not it – the next page lumps together pretty much fair and more than fair to get Scotland’s share of spending looking like slighly in favour of fair/more than fair. That’s hiding the significant data. As a statistician I protest.
Apparently Scotland Tonight is running with some interesting new polling data on independence, so presumably the same thing. And probably with the same unionist spin.
The report above is called: “Independence: a pocket book issue?”
http://www.scotcen.org.uk/media/794004/rachel-ormston.pps
This is a great “slide” show by the way, see at a glance, not much to read.
I’m looking forward to the 2012 one – maybe this is what Severin’s article is about, in which case his article is absolute spin.
My apologies if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I was slightly perplexed, during reading the BBC article “How Experts See UK Role in EU” on the website today, when this little gem popped up courtesy of Derk-Jan Eppink, a Belgian MEP…
“I am worried about a fiscal union (in Europe) – it will create a transfer economy in the eurozone, with one part permanently subsidising the other part, and there is not public support for that.
It is already difficult in the UK if you subsidise Scotland or Wales, but if there is no shared nationhood this support is very thin.”
This idea of Scotland being “subsidised” seems all too common, and I’m sure that the Westminster government are all too happy to let it stand uncorrected.
Ach, thon ancient poll was rushed out by mistake. Poor souls are a bit jittery today. It’s all been too much. 23% yes, when devomax is off the table? I don’t think so!
dadsarmy
Most people I know want Scotland to ,remain in the EU and those who don’t when asked, admit they buy the Daily Express of the Daily Mail which immediately disqualifies them from any activity that requires coherent thought.
An important thing about today’s announcment is that it creates a hard to disguise division between Scottish Tories and a lot of their colleagues in the Better Together camp.
2017!!!! Why not have it now? Its not a referendum, it’s a neverendum.
The embargo is just a normal device used in press releases, etc. An organisation – in this case the Scottish Centre for Social Research – is releasing its report and wants any press stories to coincide with the timing of that release. No point in the Guardian website running with the story if the report isn’t available just yet. No one is imposing the embargo, it’ll just be an agreement between the two parties.
As for the contents of the Severin Carrell piece, as you would expect the headline and the thrust of the article are a bit misleading. The study is still asking the same three-way question it has been asking for years: independence, devolution or no parliament. Ironically, it seems, the better the SNP act in government, the happier the public seem to be with the devolution settlement as it is (and, consequently, less interested in full independence). The 2012 report doesn’t seem to be there yet, but looking at past reports the ‘peak’ in support for independence, and the low in terms of support for devolution, was during the dying days of the Lab/LibDem administration in 2005/06.
From a November Guardian article, small sample:
“While the UK-wide figures were very firmly in favour of quitting the EU by 48% to the 31% who preferred to stay in (presumably because of the eurozone debt crisis), in Scotland opinion was more cleanly divided. YouGov found 42% would vote to leave the EU against 43% who would vote to stay.”
I think with independence and the chance to have our own representation, this would become more “stay in”, especially with some success in re-negotiating fishing rights for example. Even I might vote to stay in!
Both Scotland Tonight and Newsnight Scotland have been trailing this poll in their tweets. It seems obvious the embargo is in place to allow the telly to air the story first.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/
Ok ok.I am not much into the conspiracy theories but the Guardian article appeared and the Herald published it at the same time.
Why are these media outlets acting in concert?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/
And the Telegraph
@Holebender
Both Scotland Tonight and Newsnight Scotland have been trailing this poll in their tweets. It seems obvious the embargo is in place to allow the telly to air the story first.
Yep. Who knew…Scottish media in cahoots to fool Scottish electorate.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-scots-support-down-says-poll-1-2754708
Scotsman also
I wrote an article for a student newspaper back in 2000 that posed the hypothetical idea that a Euro referendum might speed independence because a Scottish “in” vote would be countered by an English “out” vote and that would open people’s eyes to the disconnect between what is right for Scotland and what Scotland gets.
I revisited this question in my blog ( http://redthistle.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/scotland-and-the-eu/ ) , which was echoed in the last sentences of your piece:
“What if people in England vote to leave the EU but people in Scotland vote against? Should they be allowed to stay in the EU on their own and keep all the oil?
when I considered an In/Out EU referendum last Wednesday. What I wrote a 13 years ago and what I wrote a week ago still might be the case. If you want to stay in the EU you have to vote Yes to Independence.
@ R Louis says at 4.28pm:
Indeed. They are utter troughing scum.
@ MajorBloodnok says at 6.17pm:
So true! A feast of tasty treats, a cheeky drinkie or three and a party hat at a jaunty angle.
@ Robert Kerr says at 6.18pm:
Be interesting to see, over the next couple of years with our leaving, combined with the steady drip of uncertainty over rump UK’s euro future, if these financial institutions simply follow the money and it’s new gravitational pull towards Edinburgh and Frankfurt. I think being defended by the right wing nuttery will have a diminishing return as a sweetner on the city when faced with substantial business realities changing and having a greater presence elsewhere just makes more sense.
@ Mines An 80 bob says at 6.35pm:
Yes, that’s something about England that’s always been very jarring, the breezy disregard for everyone else’s existence and contribution – particularly when, without it, they would have been seriously diminished. I think a combination of our independence and them getting short shrift from the EU, will put all that to rest once and for all.
That’s the Guardian article now:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jan/23/support-scottish-independence-slumps-lowest?fb=native
The co-ordinated timing and wording is indeed very odd. Clearly a Better Together press release the media are willing just to run with, without thought or analysis. Propaganda at its best. But it also reeks of desperation.
Devo-max is off the table. Why are we not seeing yes/no polls?
Frankly I don’t think this will harm the Yes campaign longer term, as it will have the result of making the No side complacent. But short term, it’s the kind of thing that makes people scared to state their views – which it’s intended to do. To make those supporting indy feel they’re in a small minority.
“The co-ordinated timing and wording is indeed very odd.”
A word against conspiracy: remember Cameron’s EU speech was SUPPOSED to be made a couple of weeks ago. Unless the SSA data was delayed to coincide with it, nothing to see there. But the coverage on this evening’s Newsnicht and Scotland Tonight, on the other hand, was utterly extraordinary.
Unless my memory’s failing, when the SNP had their bumpy ride over the EU, the reporting was EXCLUSIVELY focused on the SNP. Nicola Sturgeon got a one-on-one battering from Gordon Brewer with her mic switched off. Labour and the Tories weren’t dragged in and made to defend THEIR positions alongside the Nats in the way that Fiona Hyslop and Humza Yousaf were tonight.
I also don’t recall the Panelbase poll putting the Yes-No gap at just 8% getting 10 mins each on the two shows. Maybe I’ve just blanked it out. Anyone correct me?
You know, this is quite incompetent.
http://www.scotcen.org.uk/media/1021487/ssa12tables.pdf
“And what if Scotland remained part of the United Kingdom, but the Scottish Parliament made all decisions for Scotland apart from defence and foreign affairs – sometimes called ‘Devolution max’. Would you feel confident about Scotland’s future, worried, or neither confident nor worried?”
The thing is Independence supporters could say “very worried”.
Yup, I’m confused.
It reeks of a certain desperation to be so tenatiously clinging to old polls like this, even when they really don’t actually show what the unionists want them to. Even on the No facebook pages people are not really being fooled by them.
From looking at their posts, I think the No campaign’s next move is to try and change “no” to “devolution” and make out that they are campaigning for devolution and more powers will be coming our way, and to try and sieze the devo-max vote as their own. So in fact, this co-ordination and timing possibly has more to do with the release of that devo-more report.
It’s risky for them though. For one thing, they may all fall out and their own supporters start demanding to know what they should vote if they want the status quo, or less powers for Holyrood. Another is that each party will have to have different policies and put them in manifestos and rely on people trusting them.
The Yes camp just has to keep reminding people it was the unionists who wouldn’t allow devo-max on the ballot paper.
Cath
And said manifestos won’t be published till April 2015.
Overheard with a listening device: Cameron: It’s safe now. The hue and cry about the EU break-up has died down. No danger, that. Might as well have a go at them, now, hadn’t we?