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Better not together

Posted on September 16, 2015 by

Dear Blairite MP,

I’m writing on behalf of hundreds of thousands of Labour Party members; some new, and some, like me, who have been loyal party members throughout our adult lives. I’m not writing to any one of you in particular.

The ones I’m addressing will know who they are.

newlab

It’s time to talk about us.

Come on now. We all know this was never much of a relationship. We never really liked you, and you certainly never liked us.

The whole New Labour project was based on effectively creating a new party, which as far as possible just ignored the old structures of branch meetings and conference resolutions. The leadership spoke to the membership of this new partly directly, via a sympathetic media, while minimising opportunities for members to talk to each other.

Key decisions like the revision of Clause 4 and the election of a leader were made via postal ballots, with almost no deliberative discussion or campaigning. A plebiscitary model replaced the old, complex party democracy.

Members were a passive body who were expected to ratify leadership decisions, make regular contributions, perhaps help to get the vote out at elections, and otherwise remain silent. ‘Activist’ was a term of abuse.

In this new party, the career success of an MP depended almost entirely on how well they could perform a very particular role, always staying ruthlessly on-message, embodying in dress, posture and vocal manner a kind of vaguely classless aspirational culture largely modelled on the behaviour of upper-middle management in the City, or the more conservative media and PR companies.

Tony Blair was the template and Peter Mandelson the ultimate arbiter of success: the chief casting-director of the permanent performance which was New Labour.

You were great at playing this role. Unfortunately, that part has been written out of the script now. So why not move on, eh?

Some of you, we know, really do remain committed to a particular moral vision of meritocratic free-market capitalism, in which social inequality is tolerated – even encouraged – but equality of opportunity is enabled; provided that the only opportunities anyone asks for are those offered by the corporate financial and media sectors (or perhaps, at a stretch, the less political sections of the voluntary sector).

Those of you who really do adhere to that as a moral vision, however limited, should of course stay and fight for what you believe in. So should those members of other tendencies who have genuinely-held beliefs which don’t happen to coincide fully with those of the new leadership.

But many of you don’t. Instead you simply accept, as you always have done, that there is nothing worth knowing or caring about beyond the world of the corporate elite, its assumptions and its interests, and you have yourselves sought a route to prosperity and advancement in the service of that elite: a route which happens to have taken the form of becoming a Labour MP.

corbynvictory

The thing is – and we know this is hard for you to take on at first – that route is closed for now, and doesn’t look likely to open up again any time soon. The members have returned en masse, and we’re not getting back in our boxes any times soon, no matter what happens to Jeremy Corbyn and his leadership. Being a Labour MP just isn’t going to be good way to serve, and then join, the global elite class any more.

Because – let’s be honest – if you really ask yourself, isn’t it true that that’s what you were really hoping for out of this job? It’s nothing to ashamed of. You wanted a way into the upper reaches of the professional classes, and becoming an MP is still frankly more interesting and a bit more glamorous than just working your way up through the City or the commercial media.

It’s a career path that even carries with it a decent enough chance of following Blair and others to the heights of the global, billionaire-befriending, super-elite; and if not that, then at least to some Bilderberg meetings, or Davos. Nobody can blame you. You’ve done nothing illegal. Mostly.

But it’s not going to be like that any more. You’re going to be under increasing pressure from a membership whose values and priorities you have never shared, and a corporate class which will become increasingly irritated by your inability to pacify that membership. There is no mechanism for you just to get rid of Corbyn, however badly he may perform, and even if he goes, the membership are just going to be looking for a younger and more dynamic model of basically the same thing.

It’s going to a dreadful bore for you. At best, if you stay on in this job, you’ll have to join your political – but not spiritual – allies, the remnants of the old Labour Right, with all their dogged loyalty to party traditions and their tedious personal integrity, committing yourselves to the gruelling task of just being a good constituency MP for many years. At worst you’re going to face embarrassing re-selection battles and the derision of your Tory counterparts.

You know from the experience of New Labour that a whole new party formation can be created in a very short time. This is exactly what’s happening now. Against all expectations, Labour is transforming into a mass democratic socialist party. Whatever happens to that party, it isn’t going to change back into the one you had a home in.

So why not save us all the pain? Why not just move on?

Follow your heroes David Miliband and Alan Milburn into the corporate end of the NGO sector or the private healthcare industry. Take up those City consultancies. Become a TV historian. Let someone who actually wants the job of being a Labour MP in this new party take it up. Avoid the conflict and the mess and the mutual recrimination. We’ll be better off without each other.

Best of Luck,

Jeremy

.

This article by Jeremy Gilbert was originally published on OpenDemocracy.

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  1. 16 09 15 16:43

    Better not together | Speymouth

  2. 16 09 15 17:05

    Better not together | Politics Scotland | Scoo...

252 to “Better not together”

  1. heedtracker says:

    Against all expectations, Labour is transforming into a mass democratic socialist party.

    Sure they are, after 4 days of JC. He’s not the messiah is he?

  2. BLMac says:

    The Yuppies are finally on the run…

  3. R-type Grunt says:

    So this site is now a Labour mouthpiece? You’ll be missed.

  4. Dr Jim says:

    Yeay, Yeay

    Now lets get up to Scotland and take it back

    Until the next time… Ooops !!

  5. Cadogan Enright says:

    @heedtracker 3.39

    Yea, right. Dream on

    The only good thing about Corbyn is the MSM will be so busy monstering him they might lay off the SNP a bit

    BUT I suspect the MSM will monster him in England – and laud him in Scotland

    Catch yourself on heedtracker, Vote SNP in Scotland

  6. Gillian_Ruglonian says:

    Is this for real, does this guy believe in this scenario actually happening?

    An example of an optimist if ever I’ve seen one – much more likely that the intended targets of the plea will just keep their head down for the time being (whilst looking for opportunities to plot, of course).

    But best of luck to him 😉

  7. Marie Clark says:

    No heedtracker, he’s just a very naughty boy.

    I’ll get ma coat.

  8. Jim Thomson says:

    @heedtracker

    I wouldn’t start counting those chickens just yet.

    Young Jeremy has already reneged on at least two of his principles. It seems he WILL now use the ministerial car and he WILL now sing GSTQ.

    Slippery slope.

  9. Bill Steele says:

    I’ve never been able to understand why a political party of workers would elect millionaires like Blair and Milliband as its leaders. How could millionaires have any notion of life on a minimum or low wage? How could they have any idea of what it’s like to be dependent on welfare? Nothing against welfare. I grew up dependent on welfare. What notion do they have of living in a council house? I’m grateful for council houses. I grew up in one.

    It’s time for ordinary people to stop choosing millionaires as party leaders. It’s only natural their interests lie with the wealthy elite, big business and finance. We need to choose people like Nicola Sturgeon, who is one of us, not one of them.

    In case anyone objects to an Us and Them bifurcation, it is a reality. The wealthy are those who are conducting class warfare to keep down the poor and deprive them so they the poor pay for them to be rich. For evidence just consider the legislation and policies of Cameron and his Tory government.

  10. Grendel says:

    No, he’s just a very naughty boy!

  11. gordoz says:

    Jeremey this message was sent to the Labour party in Scotland in 2011. (They are very unlikely to hear the words and will only pretend to listen).

    Unfortunately found some leftover Metros on the train recently –
    Anyone else read the several ‘Yes voters’ returning to Labour letters?

    False flags or what – when you read them they don’t even know what YES movement was all about.

    All refer to Nicola promised this was for a generation & broken trust ??

    Orchestrated campaign methinks and Metro too implicated to care to vet.

  12. gordoz says:

    Sorry Jeremy/ Rev: Only just read the Dear Blairite MP tab

    Will Blairites cross floor to Osborne?

    Now that is dynamite if true (even in part) !

  13. theMadMurph says:

    there’s going to be a new social democratic party. I like that!

    To paraphrase someone!

  14. heedtracker says:

    Marie Clark says:
    16 September, 2015 at 4:20 pm
    No heedtracker, he’s just a very naughty boy.

    And lo, the spirit of JC moved across the face of Kezia and they were red tory SLab no more, and it was good.

    Real world-

    SLabour leader Kezia “also warns that a Jeremy Corbyn victory in the UK contest could reduce Labour to “carping on the sidelines” for years.”

  15. manandboy says:

    Say what you like, since Saturday the planet politics is not the same. In Scotland, Corbyn can either work with or fight against, the SNP. If he’s smart he’ll do the former.

  16. Luigi says:

    Well, it’s really up to the grassroots/constituency parties now. Labour MPs do not give up the gravy train easily – they may have to be turfed out. Go on, new party members and returnees, if your really want your party back, you know what you have to do:

    De-select the blairites at the earliest opportunity and nominate real Labour replacements. Encourage candidates to stand against them.

  17. tartanfever says:

    Dear Jeremy Gilbert,

    No mention of the illegal war in Iraq that murdered tens of thousands of innocent civilians in your letter to Blairite MP’s ?

    Just another typical Labour supporter, carefully whitewashing away a criminal legacy.

    Bog off.

    Tartanfever

  18. Andrew McLean says:

    Actually I am developing a liking for Corbin, to me he is what Wolfi would have become, if he was real, an Islington MP all caftans and beards, not so much “Come the revolution, you’ll be first against the wall” but “I’ll be asking a question in the house”
    Anyway back in the real world, london lovies stick to your own, The Scots have the real “Power to The People” in their grasp!

  19. Andrew McLean says:

    Sorry for the younger members of our fraternity, that was a reference to The TV program from the 70,s called Citizen Smith, and His Tooting Popular Front!
    http://www.tootingpopularfront.com/
    Now tell me that’s not a young Corbin!

  20. yesindyref2 says:

    Quite a cynical piece of satire.

  21. Mark says:

    He’s not the Messiah…He’s a very naughty boy!

  22. Thepnr says:

    It doesn’t matter now how Labour paint themselves in Scotland, they are finished.

    Jeremy has saw the light and knows this just as I do. Welcome on board I say. The more the merrier.

  23. galamcennalath says:

    It wasn’t just the Blairite faction of Labour who played a central role in totally f*cking up our referendum with lies, deceit, false promises, and scaremongering.

    I know, much of the left did abandon ship and joined the Yes side. However the official organisation, full spectrum, are up to their necks in derailing the nation’s future.

    Labour has been no friend of Scotland since well before the Blair Rich Project.

    They are totally beyond redemption for me, and cannot be trusted to act for Scotland’s best interests.

    We need to destroy the last vestiges in Holyrood next year, and the councils in 2017. That is the safe and certain way to move forward.

  24. louis.b.argyll says:

    Hmm, it’s the parliamentary Labour party that counts when it comes down to it.

    It’s a good letter/post..but..
    Deselect Blairites asap? For what? When is the next selection process?

    The Labour right, has until then to move the goalposts, fudge the records and put up pseudo centrists, backed up be current Mps.

    And what about the existing local donors.? These are the ones who will cross the floor, so to speak.

  25. Cadogan Enright says:

    Slab is wall to wall Blairites and or careerists

    The only positive thing in the Post above is the possibility that Labour in Scotland will be riven by re-selection battles

    But if it is not, and the MSM weighs in with tosh about mass conversion of Yessers to Labour, then you will all know what is going on ~ lies to convince folk that the likes of McTeiran and Kezia have suddenly changed their spots

    Meanwhile I am sending another £20 to IScot as there is only a few hours left in their funder and it has not yet hit 70% http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-phase-2-be-the-change/x/10763804#/story

    Please. Post to other sites

  26. Weegiepolitik says:

    Old Labour. New Labour,whatever Labour flavour you fancy; as far as helping to advance Scotland’s interests and listen to what the Scottish electorate want, its no gonnae happen,ken.

    JC was elected leader by a majority of new members/supporters in England (whatever title 3 quid got you), who are looking for change and someone to finally represent them.

    That same mainly English membership base who voted for JC are his target audience; so as lomg as theres a labour party in Scotland rather than an actual Scottish Labour party, labour voters in Scotland shouldnt expect to be top priority for JC and co

    Cadogan Enright makes a valid point that the furore over Jc will take some of the flak away from the SNP, but those who support independence should leave labour and JC to either implode further or concentrate on helping their supporters in England; and remain commited to the cause of Scottish indepedence as a means to a fairer democracy and society in Scotland.

  27. gavin C Barie says:

    @ heedtracker: Kezia warns “that a Corbyn victory …. carping on the sidelines” No she didn’t say that – recently! Currently Kezia is kittening up to Corbyn is she not? Next up she’ll be off to Halfords for a Maoist bicycle. Now how does a lady deal with the crossbar?

    Left foot pushes down on the pedal, up on the seat, now, lift your right leg over and across the crossbar to the right side pedal. Seen it done in Pakistan. Word of caution, don’t do this bicycle mount towards your photographers.You have been warned!

  28. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Mr Heedtracker hear hud oan tae yer cotton picking socks,two Messiah.s in the wan party in wan year. Dimjims no assended oanywhere yet.

  29. Proud Cybernat says:

    Jeremy, I don’t give a hee-haw about your coming Corbyn socialist utopia. I don’t give a hee-haw about Corbyn ’cause he sure as hell doesn’t give a hee-haw about Scotland. Labour never did. They were all just careerists up here. Thankfully there’s only one of them left.

    The Labour Party needs Scotland more than Scotland will ever need the Labour Party. The Labour Party’s Scottish Accounting Branch Office utterly betrayed the people of Scotland in the IndyRef (and reaped the reward for that betrayal in GE2015). Scotland has changed for the better–we no longer will vote Labour like the sheeple we once were. Those days are finished. History.

    And do not misunderstand me here. My solidarity/humanity towards others doesn’t end at Dover. And neither will it end at Gretna when Scotland becomes independent (soonish). So you can dump your ‘all socialists together’ pish where it belongs. In Tory Blair’s tea mug.

  30. Capella says:

    I hope Jeremy Corbyn does well in England. Left Labour will be treated to the venomous MSM for the first time since the Michael Foot donkey jacket smear. Let’s extend the hand of friendship as Mhairi Black suggested. The more people who see through the propaganda miasm the better. The anti austerity movement extends well beyond Scotland.

  31. Macart says:

    Interesting post Mr Gilbert, but happily such action is not required in Scotland. You’ll be glad to know we have already shown the Blairites the door. We replaced them with a party which gave a damn and remembers what the term public servant means.

    Still, we’re more than willing to offer our best wishes to the future of any progressive movement in England.

    It sorely needs it.

  32. Dr Jim says:

    In a thousand years this guy will never be allowed by his own party let alone England to be even close to sniffing distance of Number Ten

    So for those deluded Red Rose tinted glasses wearers with the Mid Sixtys haze in front of their eyes, If you hold your breath long enough you’ll die before you ever see Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister

    What you’ll get is a few weeks, even months of interest maybe and then it’ll be Dear o Dear while the English Media destroy him and the Scottish Media attempt to talk him up

    Dear o Dear

  33. Jimbo says:

    Against all expectations, Labour is transforming into a mass democratic socialist party. Whatever happens to that party, it isn’t going to change back into the one you had a home in.

    Jeez, I’ll have some of whatever Mr Gilbert’s smoking. If he really thinks Labour is turning into a mass democratic socialist party he should take a look at the right of centre, Trident loving, incompetent Labour careerists who frequent Holyrood.

    His mass democratic socialist party fantasy would be destroyed.

  34. Ken500 says:

    Just vote them out in Scotland. 2016/17

    Labour were raising £600Billion in taxes, borrowing and spending £150Billion more = £750Billion

    The Tories are raising £466Billion, borrowing and spending £90Billion. Thatcher raised £449Billion over twenty years ago. (lower pop)

    Scotland raises £54Billion and gets £50Billion? Back.

    Take £54Billion (1/12 UK pop) from £466Billion = £412Billion Divide by 11 = £39Billion. The rest of the UK borrows and spends £90Billion more.

    Scotland would be £10Billion better off Independent. A tax on ‘loss leading’ drink, cut Trident etc.

  35. schrodingers cat says:

    nnn

    lfi fined 1500 by the ec
    the ec also investigating wings

    severen in the guardian

  36. schrodingers cat says:

    mhaire on twitter

    Tories sniggering every time Corbyn mentions a member of the public’s name. At least they are real people, unlike those the DWP made up.

  37. Grouse Beater says:

    Englishmen writing about the UK and talking about ‘my country’ when they mean England are ten a penny.

  38. Al Dossary says:

    Left-wing, right-wing – I really could not care either way.

    What is clear to me is that they despite the “Emperors New clothes” the now only partly Red (or is it slightly left of Red) Tory party still have the same speech writers and advisors pulling the strings.

    The more I see and hear of him the more it seems to me that he is nothing more than a patsy thrown to the front of the line to try and reawaken their sleeping members. When our right wing elite are finished with him the a Red Torys will zimplyvcast hike aside t bebrepplaced by a more centrist red Tory.

    Corbyn with his questions from real people at PMQ is the same sort of spin that Slabour try to put on every time at FMQT by quoting a name in an attempt to humanize their point by referring to a real person.

  39. schrodingers cat says:

    more than one of them (labmps)has told me that they could not possibly remain in Corbyn’s Labour Party for long if it looks as though Corbyn will endure.

    question, if jc is knifed in the back by his own mps, will this help the yes cause?

  40. Cal says:

    Stu, Sorry to hear about your dad. Hope he makes a full recovery from his mini stroke.

  41. Capella says:

    Has Stu’s dad had a stroke? Hope he recovers fully. Stu will need lots of time now. May not be any more posts for a while.

  42. gordoz says:

    O/T

    Looks like IScot funding has stalled at £28,500 (63%) still not a bad figure and respect to all who contributed.

    (It really is a cracking mag)

    (13hrs left and ticking)

  43. Pedro says:

    London Labour? Not interested!

  44. JLT says:

    Not a bad article, Jeremy. Possible a Labour love song. It certainly highlights the differences between Blairites and Socialists …but the only problem is that this is the wrong site to air such differences.

    The vast majority here seek Independence, and yet, not once was Independence, or Federalism, or Devolution mentioned in the article. More to the point …Scotland isn’t mentioned anywhere either.

    Sorry Jeremy …it’s a great love letter to Labour as you tell them how you feel, and also why you can’t love them back if their Blairites …but most folk here have washed their hands of Labour altogether …and forever.

    And after today’s performance in Parliament, I’m wondering about Corbyn. Reading letters in Parly may sound like a new trick, but if he intends to do this week in, week out, then folk will eventually ask who is the opposition; Labour or the general public. Plus …I found out nothing today of what Corbyn’s policies are; what he intends to question Cameron on …and certainly reading letters won’t cut it!

    The Blairites could be smirking in the backbenches if this is Corbyn’s idea of opposition.

  45. heedtracker says:

    question, when jc is knifed in the back by his own mps, will this help the yes cause?

    Jeremy’s got that covered SC-

    “There is no mechanism for you just to get rid of Corbyn, however badly he may perform, and even if he goes, the membership are just going to be looking for a younger and more dynamic model of basically the same thing.

    It’s going to a dreadful bore for you.”

    Since when has miracle work been boring, let alone dreadful. Here in their Scotland region, BBC already been hard at work ukok commanding SNP to give up to all new exciting JC, work alongside with JC, let the rightful Slabour ruler of Scotland land take over, under Morningside’s Ian Murray MP, another JC miracle acolyte convert who might well have been a redtoryboy who “sought a route to prosperity and advancement in the service of that elite: a route which happens to have taken the form of becoming a Labour MP”

    Ian has forsaken the bad old ways of Blair/Broon/Flipper. Let us pray.

    Actually JC is the lowest expenses claimer in Westminster, which must make him really popular with redtory Lord Flipper Darling and Lord Foulkes:D

  46. I stumbled across this earlier today, though it’s just taken me 15 mins to find it again on the BBC News site. Robert Peston: Will Blairites cross floor to Osborne?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34267886

  47. Dave Hansell says:

    O/T. Given the clear problem many supporters of this site have with the BBC readers maybe interested in a petition currently going around on change.org calling on the BBC to provide balance in its references to the PM and the leader of the opposition.

    The basic argument being that the BBC had taken to referring to Corbyn as the left wing leader of the opposition. The petition is calling on the BBC to now refer to David Cameron as the right wing Prime Minister.

  48. Dr Jim says:

    Isn’t the Telegraph and it’s readers just the sewer of humanity
    The comments that publication allows on it’s website are without doubt some of the most foul I’ve ever seen

    Nobody in my memory has ever written anything on this site (thank goodness) even close to the vile outpourings of that paper and it leads me to wonder, surely the type of hateful vitriol they encourage should be cause for intervention by the proper authorities

    If it was supporting Isis it would be shut down so what’s the difference that it supports the most violent of anti Scottish sentiment you could read

    I do enjoy laughing at Drunky Cochrane every now and then but to embrace these comments and actively encourage them is way too much

    If somebody on Wings commented in the same manner not only would everybody be on their back but Stu would likely block them so why can’t the Telegraph be as civilised as Wings

    What am I saying ( never happen )

  49. EphemeralDeception says:

    Grousebeater “Englishmen writing about the UK and talking about ‘my country’ when they mean England are ten a penny.”

    Aye, and JC did exactly that in his very 1st FMQs, question #1, today. It makes it very clear that his country and what he primarily represents is England. I have nothing against that, I just wish they would come out and say it and then we can all move on.

  50. Paula Rose says:

    Darlings stop being so beastly – It’s interesting to find out what people are thinking in other parts of the British Isles.

  51. gordonbrownstuff says:

    Still red tories with or without Corbyn. Labour are no friends of Scotland the indyref showed them up for what they are. Anyone thinking otherwise is a fool!

  52. Gary45% says:

    Interesting picture.
    Who is that murdering war criminal in the middle( the one with the rubbish Nazi salute?)
    Crash looks like he was on the bong.
    I take it the other is Milburn!?!? whoever he is?
    Looks like Mr Corbyn is cracking already, regarding god save Brenda.
    Labour party RIP

  53. gordoz says:

    O/T

    IScot fundraiser has started to tick over again and is at 64% with 12 hrs to go.

    If you are interested in contributing visit here.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-phase-2-be-the-change#/story

    Ken is it worth sending a wee reminder via Indigogo as time is marching on ?

  54. Bob Mack says:

    We would have to stretch the grounds of credibility somewhat to believe that as Labour South go into meltdown and dissaray that Labour North would somehow thrive.

    The electorate in Scotland would have to believe that the two are separate entities in totalis,which I do not think is feasible.
    I and many others know who is really in charge courtesy of Ms Lamont.

    Somebody somewhere will have to give up deeply held pricipals and that my friends is the ammunition we need to widen the cracks which will inevitably appear in the facade.

    Onwards and upwards.

  55. ben madigan says:

    @JLT at 7.05 pm who wrote ” folk will eventually ask who is the opposition; Labour or the general public”

    Since parliament’s original function was to hold power to account, maybe grassroots questions are not the wrong way to go?

  56. jim mitchell says:

    This message is about 40 years to late!

    However there will be those who will change over-or back over, those like oor Kez who like to keep in with whoever is really at the top of that party whatever they might be saying or doing.

    BTW As far as Scotland is concerned I don’t think Mr Corbyn will be any different from the rest.

  57. gordoz says:

    Typical :

    The National front page exposes the Vow as ‘The Con’ ans no Scotland Tonight – only English Football ????

  58. Could Corbyn be an extreme form of Astroturfing.

    He looks grassroots he sounds grassroots he is being sold as grassroots where in fact he is just their to try and invigorate the disillusioned/disenchanted Labour lefties into thinking the party has changed and start voting/working/contributing to the cause.

    Nothing will actually really change but they keep making it look like in might.

    Stu hope your dad has a speedy recovery,is he a Dons man like youreself?

  59. CameronB Brodie says:

    Capella
    I feel a bit uncomfortable talking about the Rev.’s dad but he had a TNI (‘mini-stroke’), not the full Bhuna. I thought the Rev. might take the rest of the day to himself but it’s the evening now. 😉

  60. Broch Landers says:

    The last 12 months has been quite something to behold.

  61. Capella says:

    BBC up to their tricks again. Big headline:
    “JEREMY CORBYN ‘WILL SING NATIONAL ANTHEM IN FUTURE'”
    But nowhere in the interviews does he say this.
    Turns out it was “sources” who said it to the BBC’s Norman Smith.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34263447

    All eyes will be on JC at his next opportunity to not sing the national dirge. Why would a republican sing that awful song? It reminds me of Billy Connolly’s sketch.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9nnnM-__JQ

  62. Capella says:

    @ CameronB Brodie
    Thanks. I realise it must be on twitter and I don’t do twitter. Yet.

  63. Wuffing Dug says:

    Stu,

    Hope your dad has a quick recovery.

    Labour, jist gies peace eh?

  64. Cadogan Enright says:

    @gordoz 8pm
    The on-line edition of the National is great . It has really come on as a paper.

    I was surprised there was not more in the MSM reflecting the aticles in the edition of the 10th covering Broon’s admission of failure on the Vow

    One would think that it would have the sames rights to display as the Heralds Daily- I presume the distributor is the same?

  65. Chris says:

    No, he’s not the messiah, he’s a very naughty boy!

  66. Paula Rose says:

    Don’t fret about Jeremy having to sing – he’s been sent this version…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7QFXFTQZhw&feature=youtu.be

  67. gordoz says:

    IScot fundraiser 64% with 11 hrs to go.

    If you are interested in contributing visit here.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-phase-2-be-the-change#/story

    Next contribution will take it to £29,000. If it got to £30,000
    would leave No voter nothing to crow about

  68. Chris says:

    With all this irrelevant hype about a republican not singing the praises of the Queen (i.e. Jeremy Corbyn) we should just count ourselves lucky he didn’t burst into a rendition of the sex pistol’s version. Now that would have been disrespectful.

  69. Dr Jim says:

    For SNP members check your in boxes for Nicola’s email survey
    it’s important and I’m a wee bitty excited

  70. Paula Rose says:

    @ Capella Come and twit dear – it’s lovely and warm once you get in.

  71. Tam Jardine says:

    What strange times we live in. We’ve had a couple of years of Scotland being front and centre and now its back to grown up Westminster politics… proper politics. Back in the box with us.

    Corbyn’s first order of business when he comes up here to ‘take back’ Scotland should be to apolgise for his party’s conduct during the referendum and since. Lying to pensioners, putting the fear of God into vulnerable people, telling folk organ transplants are at risk, telling EU citizens they will be deported in the event of a Yes win. The whole fucking lot of them are an absolute disgrace- and I didn’t hear anyone in labour object to these tactics, including Corbyn.

    And what about a wee apology for the duplicity of his entire party in backing up the vow and Gordon Brown in the big con. Where was Corbyn while the greatest deception of our times was perpetrated?

    If I was English I would vote for him but the ‘revolution’ in England is going to find itself pinned down under the blitzkrieg from the right wing press for 5 years. The yes campaign survived under it but their political element was well disciplined, professional and used to it. And the people had been hearing the same pish for years, only at a lower volume.

    Watching Corbyn on newsnight the other night and it looked like a couple of days had been enough to wear him down. Again- where was the labour party when the yes campaign was being demonised and the entire london controlled media machine was terrorising the people of Scotland a year ago. They were complicit, and Corbyn was silent. They came after the xxx and I did nothing and all that.

    I want out of the union- I don’t want to live in a country where a democratically elected political leader can be all but destroyed by the press in a couple of days. The whole thing for me is like a sideshow- like the US presidential election.

    England will do what England does- we live under their control and need to buckle down, learn our lessons and get ready to take our chance. The UK is disintigrating and the rate of disintigration is increasing.

    Last September was the right time to leave the party- unfortunately due to old people being frightened and attached to outdated and unfit institutions we are staying to the bitter end when the police are called, folk are spewing their ring and everything kicks off.

  72. kininvie says:

    The big question is – just how wedded is our Jeremey to UKOK? It’s quite obvious he’s never really had to think about Scotland – but I imagine there will be plenty of the 56 willing to put him right about a few things…

    The shrivelled remains of ScoLab must also be turning things over, wondering how they can get back their piece of pie.

    It wouldn’t surprise me at all if we found that the Labour Party’s new-found principles suddenly included Devo-to-the-max and a wonderful new Vow to go with it.

    I wouldn’t buy it, but some might.

  73. crazycat says:

    @ Gary45% at 7.42

    The man on the right in the picture is Jack Cunningham, sometime MP for Copeland and since 2005 Baron Cunningham of Felling. Offhand, I can’t think of any good points about him.

  74. heedtracker says:

    JEREMY CORBYN, LABOUR LEADER FACES DOWN PRIME MINISTER AT PMQ

    say
    Nicholas Watt, Rowena Mason and Frances Perraudin of rancid old Graun

    The messiah has returned. Why it takes three liggers of one broadsheet to come up with this, faced down Cammers bleh is another teamGB mystery.

    JC’s been sitting on the cheap seats for so long he probably here here hered Lloyd George. If he’d frozen or self levitated or pulled out his lightsaber and did his Obi wan kenobi impression, that might have taken so many of Graun chancers.

    A 20 year old MP from Paisley was far and away the better speaker than the messiah but then she’s not English or a dude, or Labour etc

  75. call me dave says:

    Just catching up from this morning.
    Wishing you all the best about your dad.

    PS:
    Jeremy’s too busy!

    As political parties prepare to mark the anniversary of the Scottish independence referendum, sources confirmed Mr Corbyn would not now be coming to Edinburgh this week as had been previously suggested

    Sources said “diary commitments” meant there had been a change of plan; a visit next week was possible.

    https://archive.is/4SzJS

  76. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    @Nana,

    thanks for the Shetland News link. A great local paper that is not afraid to highlight these issues.

    “Great is the Truth and it will Prevail”

  77. Grouse Beater says:

    Tam: Corbyn’s first order of business when he comes up here to ‘take back’ Scotland should be to apolgise for his party’s conduct during the referendum and since. Lying to pensioners, putting the fear of God into vulnerable people, telling folk organ transplants are at risk, telling EU citizens they will be deported in the event of a Yes win. The whole fucking lot of them are an absolute disgrace- and I didn’t hear anyone in Labour object to these tactics, including Corbyn.

    Seconded.

    He has to be made aware that his party all but terrorised certain sections of society, including thick headed ninny Balls and his No to sharing the pound. Unforgiveable.

    Unfortunately, Corbyn’s entire mind is concentrated on English issues which he likes to call British.

  78. call me dave says:

    Interesting developments continue at Grangemouth.

    https://archive.is/fIDfH

    PS:
    Bannockburn up another 1% to 33% and BoB now 23%

  79. De Valera says:

    I think the UK establishment are secretly pleased with Corbyn. He will never be PM, his role is to neutralise the real radical threat – the SNP. Remember the support of the Daily Record?

    They hope he can “win back” Scotland, then his job is done. Now if I were a conspiracy theorist……………

  80. HandandShrimp says:

    Pleasantly surprised to see that Bannockburn is up at 33% now. 🙂

    Even more pleasantly surprised to see that the iScot funding drive is up at 65%

    🙂

  81. Macart says:

    @Tam Jardine

    They have a lot to apologise for.

  82. Cal says:

    @Paula Rose 7.27pm

    Paula, I’m more interested in what the other 99% of the world are thinking. “Stop the world, I want to get on”, as someone once said.

  83. Wuffing Dug says:

    Tam & Grouse Beater,

    Thirded, bravo.

  84. heedtracker says:

    The mesiah says he’s green but another day of if only we voted YES farts along.

    Huge fracking licence issue by blue tories.

    “While the government has pledged to restrict fracking in national parks, in July it made a U-turn on a pre-election promise to protect the thousands of SSSIs in the UK. There are 4,000 such sites in England, more than 1,000 in Wales and 1,425 in Scotland.”

    UK.gov destroyed Scottish renewable wind energy industry but its going to be interesting listening to protests of same UKOK Scottish red and blue tories that went vote NO mental over Trump at Mennie SSSI.

    UK.gov “SSSIs make up a very small percentage of the licence areas that the government has offered, therefore ruling them out would have almost zero impact on the industry but could be a major benefit for wildlife.” Unless its Trump and the BBC etc can use it to monster Alex Salmond. What a bunch.

  85. louis.b.argyll says:

    Lots of links in comments to ‘get Corbyn ‘ media trash.

    ‘Our’ “BBC / MEDIA” should be interviewing ‘the MAN/WOMAN on the street’.

    Where are the stories about successful democratic engagement? We’ve seen very little of those people who have ACTUALLY CHANGED their views.
    THAT’S what’s actually newsworthy.

    Was it not the public, after all, (those members of a political party simply exercising their democratic right) who created this ‘news’ to be reported.

    THE PUBLIC, ‘ITSELF’, WAS DEMONISED DURING THE LATTER STAGES OF THE CAMPAIGN.
    ..’election might be hijacked’ etc…

    Now, throughout the media,
    ALL WE SEE IS A ‘HIJACKED AGENDA’.

    Rolled out 24/7 and FORCED HOME BY (ESTABLISHMENT TYPES) THOSE WITH MOST TO LOSE) – be they Tory or Blairite, correspondent or pundits (spits, sideways).

    Who the hell do the BBC think they are.

    They should be tempering the Tory/Blairite incumbent party politics and the advantage they have by being close to power.

    Journalistic standards.? Range of views.?

    What are the communications trade unions doing?
    Lying can’t be in the job description, not officially.

  86. Tinto Chiel says:

    I see Emperor Corbynius isn’t leaving Londinium to visit his Scotland Province after all. A pleasure deferred, no doubt. It will give his bonds woman Kezia more time to explain her “carping on the sidelines” comment.

    BTW, my cosmologist friend Harvey says the three entities in the photograph at the top of the thread offer incontrovertible proof of the existence of Dork Matter.

  87. @call me dave says:

    PS:
    Bannockburn up another 1% to 33% and BoB now 23%

    Might be worth archiving that as the Beeb have ways and means.

  88. Nana Smith says:

    @Hoss

    I did not realise just how thick skinned some lib dems are and appear to have no problem with lying to the public.

    I think gofundme will not come off well in all this. I certainly would not use their services.

  89. Al-Stuart says:

    Better Not Together – Bye Bye Blairites

    Another TOP posting from Stuart and WoS.

    Really hit the nail on the head.

    The millionaire ex-banker Labour MP and ex Shadow Work & Pensions Rachel Reeves is one who real socialist Labour people have been asking to resign as an MP…

    https://archive.is/s0gNs

    and…

    OUCH

    Just read what other real Labour people think of Rachel Reeves a.k.a. Iain Duncan-Smith in drag…

    https://archive.is/yuxsb

    https://archive.is/jKofX

    The Better Not Together letter is SPOT ON as this clearing out of Blairite Red Tories is taking hold…

    The Hon. Dr. Tristram Hunt MP resigned with undue haste immediately as Jeremy Corbyn was elected. Tristram gave a somewhat two-face hypocritical Tweet…

    https://archive.is/Ehxbg

    Cambridge educated Tristram is son of Baron Hunt and cousin of Conservative Baroness Virginia Bottomley. What on earth Tristram was doing in the Labour Party is a mystery. A real Red Tory. Exit stage right Tristram.

    Another New Labour Shadow Minister resigner is Chuka Ummuna – He who actually writes articles about “BLUE LABOUR”. Unbelievable.

    Not wishing to intrude upon private grief, but his some real Labour supporters have harsh words for Chukit…

    https://archive.is/6pC0T

    Next to resign from New Labour front bench is Yvette Cooper – ex Secretary of State of Work, Pensions. Yvette was at the controls of the DWP who in turn have so far killed off 80,000 cripples and sick people: FACT https://archive.is/j0nAF

    Yvette too has had hard words from real Labour people…

    https://archive.is/F84ZJ One Labour wag put it well: “you abstained on the welfare vote and paid the price”. Many priceless comments for Yvette to mull over on the link above.

    Last and least…

    Arch Blairite Liz “4.5%” Kendal. Just scope some of the acerbic comments from fellow Labour members wishing her well on the Tory benches…

    https://archive.is/yGcD9

    WoS has hit the nail on the head – Blairite Labour MP’s need to resign and go join their soulmates over on the Tory benches.

  90. ben madigan says:

    Hope your dad makes a speedy recovery, Rev.
    All best wishes and supportive thoughts to everyone in your family at this worrying time
    Ben

  91. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Cal.

    “Paula, I’m more interested in what the other 99% of the world are thinking. “Stop the world, I want to get on”, as someone once said”

    For you…
    https://sites.google.com/site/webgaffer/home/badge-designs/UN-Saltire-black-red-crop.jpg

  92. Iain More says:

    I don’t really want the Blairites to leave Labour. I want them all in jails for war crimes etc. Letting them just leave Labour or breaking away from Labour is letting them off lightly in my book.

    Oh and he still has an effin unelected Lord in his shadow cabinet. He is no effin Messiah.

  93. Fred says:

    Was Corbyn with our imperial masters when they shuffled up Buchanan Street & shuffled back to Central Station?

    @ Stu, thinkin aboot ye!

  94. Tackety Beets says:

    Tam Jardine @ 9.19pm

    Ditto , well said.

    The lies spewed out by the BT which Labour were complicit , frightening those not online pensioners, for me they should never be forgiven.

    Call me Dave @ 9.51 PM

    Ref your link to Ineos investment , my first thought was , that investment will be withdrawn if those fracking permits don’t arrive soon . Watch this space. I feel another SNP bad cummin on !

  95. galamcennalath says:

    Some nonsense from the Hootsman

    https://archive.is/8XzPv

    “Democracy … should be observed. For those who fought and won the referendum on the No side, talk of a second poll is deeply unsettling”

    That stuff really annoys me. If they had delivered DevoMax/Home Rule as promised then, OK it wouldn’t have been Indy but, the democratic will of the Scottish people would have been observed. The Unionists screwed up and IndyRef2 is now needed sooner or later. Why can’t they see that?

    And ..
    “Now is the time for the pro-UK politicians to make a more positive case for the Union.”
    … that should be entertaining. I can’t wait to see what they can say positive about the whole UKOK fiasco which is unfolding.

  96. heedtracker says:

    https://archive.is/AEsM9

    At this rate, Graun’s really going to need adult nappies over the second coming. Hope Kezia’s red tory SLabour crew aren’t Graun readers. Jim Murphy must be glad he’s still backpacking round south America too.

    “For the first time in decades, an unapologetic socialist is at the head of one of Britain’s two main parties.”

  97. Gary45% says:

    Just watched Misreporting Scotchshire on the I-player.
    I think Pathetic Quay should be renamed Jackanory.

    The usual sensational headlines with a pointless story to back it up.

    Mr Corbyn is basically a plant from the establishment, to try and win back Slab voters.

    Methinks more pointless headlines coming our way from the EBC, because they still don’t get it.

  98. silver19 says:

    @De Valera it would not surprise me if Tories and Labour planned and wanted Corbyn as leader of Labour to neutralise the SNP as they are real threat to all Unionists and their corrupt and immoral united kingdom union. No doubt many tories joined labour to vote for the Labour leadership battle.

    We will be getting full blast in Scotland via our biased and corrupt MSM how great Corbyn is real Labour man of old back to the found trading union roots from now until next Scottish Election and no doubt after.

  99. Democracy Reborn says:

    Dear Jeremy,

    An interesting article regarding Labour.

    On a separate but topical note : are we still better together?

    Yours,

    DR

  100. Capella says:

    @ Paula Rose – Temptress!

    @ Cal – If you missed the Yanis Varoufakis address to the anti-austerity meeting in London here’s the link again:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=4219&v=HJXqqL9t9kg

    One of the 99% contributing his experience from Greece. Warns about the nasty media assault Corbyn will have to endure and Project Fear. From 1hr 05 mins approx 40 mins long.

  101. Quakeawake says:

    I saw and heard the BBC tonight giving completely unbalanced airtime to Cameron’s response at PMQ’s to Robertson on the vow.

    They are actually trying to sow doubt on the very obvious sham of the vow. Cameron’s facile statements get full airing, but none of Robertson’s counter response is heard, where he names some of the many organisations who have pointed to the failure to deliver. Then they just leave the question hanging. You’re left wondering, well, maybe it was delivered after all.

    It’s a disgusting display in what is, very clearly now, a propaganda war.

    The BBC MUST be discredited and shown for what they are, to the masses. It’s essential if independence is to be won.

  102. I love a good old Mills and Boon style romance. If anyone thinks for one second that the Blairites will simply give up and walk away, they have no idea of the influence of the gravy train. Electing Corbyn as leader is only as effective as his ability to keep the party elite away from cameras and microphones when he tries to carry out his promises. The likelihood of that is, frankly, zero.

  103. Paula Rose says:

    Um – don’t want to appear rude but – why is anyone watching the BBC as broadcast? We pay the Rev to do that, the rest of us can save money and gain sanity.

  104. Alcedo Atthis says:

    Weird the way Chuka Ummuna stepped aside like that — alarm bells were ringing even then. Of course, he wasn’t the only big gun to keep out of it. Anyway…

    The funny thing about Corbyn and the rightist media attacking him, much like the SNP; the more they attack him, the more popular he gets and will continue to get in certain circles.

    This is all programmed for sure. Let him clear out the stables for a few years, inject some life into the roots and branches, inspire the Facebook generation, etc. Most important of all, Labour need to win back their colonies in Scotland and who better to do that than a genuinely well-meaning lefty.

    In two or three years they’ll ditch him and go through the whole “we need to appeal to the middle ground” sketch all over again. It’ll probably work. Chuka and the gang will be back for sure.

    Anyway, time to batten down the hatches and prepare for the inevitable: “duh, why do we need independence if we can get social justice with Corbyn within the UK?” and “you can hardly accuse us of being Red Tories now”, etc.

    As for the rightist media, well, they’ll soon see sense and get off Corbyn’s back. Wait and see, this time next week they’ll start selling him in Scotland rather than ridiculing him. They can go back to bashing him in a year or two once he’s served that most overarching purpose of all: smash the SNP!

  105. Papadox says:

    IMHO Corbin is being used by the Establishment and its security services to try and neutralise the SNP and its Scottish power base by appealing to old labour members to return to the SLAB FOLD.

    When he becomes a member of the Privy Council he will have sold some of his principals. If he becomes to unmanageable he will be out on his ear and with his tail between his legs. He will be replaced by another Establishment place man, Maybe Tom Watson???

    If the new SNP members stick with the party then Corbin will go and what the Establishment do then will be very interesting.

  106. Onwards says:

    Luigi says:
    16 September, 2015 at 4:51 pm

    “Should the Scottish government accept the proposals for more powers, or should they refuse on the basis they are unworkable and not what was promised?”

    I’m beginning to think that John Swinney is serious about refusing limited extra powers, stuffed full of vetoes.

    Economic powers that can grow the tax base are needed – a full package of tax, regulation and borrowing powers.

    Devolving only the most disadvantageous and ineffective taxes could see Scotland take a hit on future Barnett-based block grants that would be hard to compensate for.

    Personal income tax in isolation is pretty ineffective, especially without control of allowances.
    We have a different tax base with an ageing population and less top-rate taxpayers. And the Cuthberts have identified a gearing problem where Scotland suffers disproportionately if rUK MPs alter income tax to fund reserved areas.

    Income tax can’t effectively be reduced much due to Labour/SNP competition for socialist votes, and it can’t be raised as the richest would simply cross the border.

    So limited and inflexible devolution is the worst of both worlds.

    The SNP could take the calculation that a budget hit is worthwhile as a further step towards independence and longer term prosperity. Insufficient powers and a falling budget will either boost the demand for independence.. or hurt the SNP.

    It’s a hard call.
    Ineffective devolution that leaves Scotland worse off is a dangerous game for unionists also.

  107. Truth says:

    Off topic but I had to share.

    Today I saw a guy wearing a “No thanks” t-shirt. I mean, I never saw one during the whole campaign and here I see one in Motherwell only a couple of days before the referendum anniversary.

    It was well worn, so perhaps it was all the guy could afford. Either that or he was a complete zoomer.

  108. Andrew McLean says:

    Dam broke my promise to myself not to read the Scotsman comments section, now I can’t sleep knowing their are such absolute nut jobs living close by! In fact knowing they reside on the same continent gives me the willies!

  109. Paula Rose says:

    Just been reminding pals around the world about this –

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-phase-2-be-the-change#/story

    Are you doing the same?

  110. Chic McGregor says:

    Corbyn is not a ‘plant’ but if polling evidence shows he is winning back Labour ‘defectors’ in Scotland the Establishment heat will come off until after the 2016, at which point he will quickly become toast.

  111. i have a question says:

    let’s give the guy a chance, he appointed tom watson deputy, that’s the guy that got up in westminster and spoke about paedophilia in westminster. his shadow chancellor’s a guy who believes as we do that a serious re-order of the mechanics of taxation is long overdue. and also, for fexsake, let’s give the popular english left a chance, there is still a popular english left. they get one chance! one. this is it, i’ll be voting snp in 2020 no matter what, but let’s not write off our compatriots down south just yet, there’s still time, the rev lives in bath ffs…. that’s it, don’t rise to the bait, absorb, understand, hope. well maybe prepare, yeah, prepare, it’s gonny be a long few years

  112. Dr Jim says:

    @ i have a question

    I agree he should be given a chance
    in his own country

    Absorb? Understand? Hope?

    What are you 12

    We’ve been absorbing their Shite for 300 years
    While they’ve been absorbing Scotlands wealth

    Not even a good try…. must do better

  113. yesindyref2 says:

    On the other hand @i have a question, indy’s in the air, everywhere I look around, and the Unionists are falling over themselves to kick themselves in the backside to give Indy that last boost onwards and upwards.

    I think things are falling into place, and the timing of it all is as near perfect as it can get.

    Won’t be long now.

  114. DerekM says:

    sorry but as old labour i can tell you to get your damn head out your arse.

    The labour party is dead and Corbyn will not save it,and if you think us old scottish socialist are going to come flocking back then you are dreaming,you screwed us you got in bed with the tories and for that you will pay the price.

    One man does not make a political party,if he had a set of balls on him he would throw those red tories out the party but he will not,he has already tried to find a consensus with them.

    Which is an act of sheer stupidity because they will stab him in the back first chance they get.

    Fuck your labour party independence for Scotland.

    tick tock

  115. Kevin Evans says:

    Listened to the SNP at PMQ’s.

    The vow was so empty of substance the PM can make it out to be whatever he wants it to be but on the same hand everyone in Scotland in the final few days of the refurendum had there own views on the vow also.

    Some seen it as a pay off, some as a document that wouldn’t be lived up too. Most heard and expected “devo max or federalism”. But no one in Scotland accepts Cameron’s interpretation of the vow. Even no voters unionist understood the vow meant more powers and they know under there breath the vow hasn’t been delivered.

    Scotland knows it was shafted. Yes, no and maybe voters.

  116. john king says:

    Kevin Evans says
    “Scotland knows it was shafted. Yes, no and maybe voters.”

    I watched Cameron with growing anger and distaste as he stood with his back to Angus Robertson insisting that he HAD delivered on the “vow” and attempting to deflect attention away from him and onto the SNP by insisting they should put up or shut up,

    trouble with that little scam Davy boy is that only 9% of people in Scotland actually believe the “vow” was delivered in full so in fact a very large percentage of no voters believe we’ve been shafted as well,

    How do to explain that Mr Cameron?

  117. The Isolator says:

    Note to the two Jeremy’s,the British Labour Party remain an enemy of the people of Scotland.

    Yours sincerely disgruntled with the memory of an elephant.

    The Capital City

    Rev hope all is well.

  118. Luigi says:

    The problem with the “Corbyn is a plant” theory (either unwittingly or as a useful idiot) is that expectations of a huge number of people in England have now been raised. If this all has been a cunning plan by the establishment to attack the SNP, it is a dangerous game indeed they have played. A can of worms has been opened and this can quickly get out of hand and backfire spectacularly.

    IMO Corbyn is not a deliberate plant, but the establishment will now respond to his rise and use him in any way they can. He is the unexpected result of clever Labour MPs who thought the party would look good with a leftie leadership candidate. He was considered to be unelectable (or they never would have nominated him). The establishment are far better at responding to events than deliberately creating them.

    Corbyn will stir things for a while, but TBH he is not up to the job. He already seems to be wilting under the pressure. If he really does not want to sing GSTQ or bow to HM in order to be elected to the Privy council, then he should not do it. Even if refused the Privy council, the media will go apeshit but he will have huge support. He seems to have made a career of making statements and taking stances. He stated off well but he needs to stand his gound, not melt. If he compomises now, he is finished. If he starts with a stance then backs down he will end up looking a prat.

    In short, he needs to create standoffs, no matter what problems ensue. That’s why he was elected IMO. He needs to stick with his guns no matter if all hell breaks loose. Is he man enough?

  119. JLT says:

    Ben Madigan says:

    Since parliament’s original function was to hold power to account, maybe grassroots questions are not the wrong way to go?

    Yes and No. Politicians are elected to represent the people. For myself, Corbyn can rightly note what folk have written to him, but he should then draft up something for Parliament and PM’s Questions.

    What Corbyn did yesterday seemed to smack of ‘Call Kaye’ or in this case ‘Call Corbyn’. Reading out Maries, Dave, Tom’s letters may highlight that these are the problems facing real people. But as it was noted, Cameron relaxed, and he batted each question away into the bleachers, simply because there was no real effective opposition. If Corbyn had tried to interevene, Cameron could easily say, ‘but Jeremy, I’m answering the question that Marie put to me …a question asked by Marie; not you’.

    If such a format was to continue, then we may learn nothing of Labour’s position on anything. So, when a contentious issue arises in that moment (say the Refugee Crisis), Jeremy can avoid it by continuing to read out letters that avoid the issue entirely, when in reality, he should be discussing what is truly pressing.

    Personally …it sounds great in theory, but possibly weak in practice.

  120. CameronB Brodie says:

    Was the letter reading perhaps a gimmick thought up by some focus group or PR agency? “The people’s champion, reaching out to his constituents”? “I feel what you say”.

    Cynical? You bet.

    @ Mr. Corbyn
    What is the difference between Scotland and the Palatine, apart from the military occupation and apartheid, of course, though that might be on it’s way (EVEL)?

    Does Scotland not desserve to be liberated in the way you suggest for the Palastine?

  121. gordoz says:

    IScot fundraiser 69% with 1 hr to go. TIME RUNNING OUT

    If you are interested in contributing visit here.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-phase-2-be-the-change#/story

    70% contributions will leave No voters nothing to crow about !!

  122. woosie says:

    This piece seems to assume that Scots want indy because labour are so poor. I don’t care about labour, or tories, or libdems, or anyone else! Lets get independence, then sort out where our micro-political sympathies lie.

    I feel these arguments are pointless, and may even dilute the resolution of some yessers. I always vote SNP, but I realise they are a means to an end; after indy, and after a settling in period, I’d expect SNP to weaken, and perhaps dissolve, having achieved their prime objective.

    That’s when, and only when, we should be giving these parties – parties who, remember, from their wm base, pillaged and cleared Scotland for 300 years – a hearing.

  123. Arabs for Independence says:

    O/T
    From BBC England webpage
    “1. From 12:00 on 11 September 2015 until 11:59 on 18 September 2015 you will be invited to vote for your choice of the most decisive battle fought on the British Isles from a shortlist of nine”

    Bannockburn at 33% – less than 30 hours to go and it is 10% ahead.

    🙂

  124. louis.b.argyll says:

    Bannockburn may be in the lead, but the winner might suffer the BBC cut n paste routine.

    Remember the UK establishment are the current winners of the ‘wars’ of independence, and will treat history appropriately.

  125. Cadogan Enright says:

    Some so-called academic called Bell from Sterling University was just on Radio Ulster doing the Will Podmore independent review of the case for Scottish independence one year on

    Does anybody know this twerp before I ‘phone in ?- it was a Truely embarrassing – but many here will have no idea that he was talking through his arse

  126. Glamaig says:

    wow, Radio Scotland GMS really going for it this morning with Project Fear / SNPBad. What a bonanza. Too much to even remember.

    If we had voted yes we would be going to hell in a handcart because of low oil prices, oil no good, shortfall due to low oil price coincidentally same as outlay on pensions (this is the one that had me raging with the pure evil of frightening the elderly, intentional but false implication – you wouldn’t have a pension).

    World security situation, safer inside secure UK… blah blah

    New powers bad, SNP members against fracking (subtext here is looking for divisions in SNP), upland farming subsidies too low, SNP Gov bad, want wild land everywhere, clearances, crofters no more.

    Quebec 20 years on, so glad we are still part of Canada etc, Sturgeon promised, once in a generation, drone drone, blah blah.

    Very little time for any actual news this morning after that onslaught of Project Fear 2.

  127. Macart says:

    Devil’s advocate time

    Let’s throw one out there

    It could be argued Mr Corbyn has to succeed for progressives in England to prosper and to secure our own future good relations. If he fails, or is allowed to fail, then their hope dies just that wee bit more and the establishment become that much harder to shift or indeed fight at all.

    We’re fortunate y’know?

    We have an ‘out’ in the shape of dissolving that bloody treaty, a pretty good government, as yet approachable and manageable by the public. That and the party which forms that government is pretty much singing from the same hymn sheet. They still remember who they are, where they come from and what a duty of care and service means. Which is a plus for any political party you’d think. We have a strong progressive grass roots cross party/no party civic movement and a strong belief in the common weal. In short, we know where we want to be and we are determined to get there for all the right reasons.

    The question is, what kind of neighbouring government do we want after we regain our independence? Do we care? Should we care?

    Bottom line…. If Corbyn fails in reawakening and engaging popularly with England’s electorate, there is no ‘out’ for the progressive left in England and the neighbour’s government will remain the same twisted, corrupt, self seeking, greedy, murdering sociopaths we all know and loathe.

    I reckon the best help Mr Corbyn could have in his quest is to see us regain our independence personally. Nothing would shake the establishment more deeply to its core than to lose Scotland to a peaceful, democratic, progressive movement. That this movement show some solidarity for Mr Corbyn’s aims and if Mr Corbyn is smart, he could do worse than approach the Scottish benches in Commons in a spirit of compromise and reciprocity. If he needs to find out about Scotland or its politics for instance, perhaps he should avoid parties and approach us directly.

    Something to think about anyways.

  128. jacksg says:

    Morning Folks,

    Is there any point complaining to STV and other broadcasters?

    Two nights in a row i have caught the STV headlines and guess what was the main headline fecking CORBIN..sorry what relevance does this have to us?.

    There was no mention last night of Angus Roberstons spat with Cameron yesterday.Sorry but that has much more relevance to Scotland than the Labour party down south.

    As far as i am concerned the Labour party screwed us over and not just last year when they got into bed with the tories so they can rot.

    Not a happy camper 🙁

  129. Brian Powell says:

    jacksg.

    STV and BBC are establishment broadcasters. Corbyn is in Westminster as part of the old politics which they understand.

    To give too much cover to the SNP leads to a place they don’t understand and don’t want to be in.

  130. Molly says:

    Glad at last the left in England ( not including Billy Bragg , George Monbiot etc) have woken up because they certainly slept through the last few years when a bit of support would have been welcome .

    Good luck to Jeremy Corbyn, hope we can work with you but not for you.

    Was down in Newcastle last week and as we swung round a roundabout going into Newcastle , here’s a sign with £60 million being invested in the infrastructure etc.

    With our phoney, you can raise taxes in Scotland while cutting the equivalent and the money being spent on the Northern Powerhouse , theres more than the left in England needing to wake up.

    I read the ” but what about our brothers and sisters in Manchester etc guff we can’t abandon them ” . it seem to the unions who backed a No and the so called left leaning Labour politicians in Scotland , they’ve abandoned you because it’s funny they’ve only found their voice in the last few months in the Labour leadership campaign , when it directly effects – them !

  131. Cal says:

    @ 11.27pm Hi Capella, thaks for the link I’m sure he’s right in what he says. I know how bad the press and the other media are. I lived through the referendum.

    I get my world news from French, German, Belgian, Swiss, Russian and Chinese sources. And I try to avoid English language versions too where I can. It’s a revelation when you hear the perspective of non English speakers – I recommend it to all. Of course, all are biased in different ways too and you have to do a lot of filtering.

    I have now pretty much given up on mainstream English language media entirely and you may not like this but I’m not hellish interested in what’s happening in the other bits of the “United” Kingdom. I have been completely turned off by all this brouhaha about Mr Corbyn. It all seems very remote from my life. I know what happens in London will impact on my life and that of my family but since I’m powerless to do anything about it after what happened last Sept, I feel I’ve just got to get on with things regardless. I have no trust whatsoever in what anyone from the labour party does or says. They are the least trustworthy of all the parties – far less honest that the Tories.

    I will not be buying a copy of the National today again because it has another cover with a picture of…yes, you guessed it… Jeremy BLOODY Corbyn. Every day they put his picture on the cover is a day I will refrain from buying the paper and I’m regular reader. Take note The National.

  132. Nana Smith says:

    @Macart

    Don’t hold back Macart you wee devil’s advocate you.

    “England and the neighbour’s government will remain the same twisted, corrupt, self seeking, greedy, murdering sociopaths”

    A treaty which was brought about by threat is much about the same as all the threatening behaviour from the unionists last year. Always been the way with Westminster keep the people down and subjugated with a smile [labour] and a sneer [tory]

    As you say we have a chance to get the hell out if we stick together. But please let it be soon, my nerves are frayed!

  133. heedtracker says:

    What a difference a year doesn’t make. Another day in the UK, another day of sneering malice via our chums in the UKOK media. Libby Carrell also back from hols with a UKOK vengeance

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2015/sep/16/steve-bell-on-a-new-era-of-politics-cartoon

    Another rancid Graun slander on Scotland, or rather vile separatists, what want to get as far away from these lying hypocrites as possible. Already this year, over 50000 Scots have done just that and left.

  134. call me dave says:

    Early yet and already feeling a bit bruised as I foolishly reached out and switched on the radio for a wee while before getting up.

    Hill farmers not getting the same grant from the EU as the rest of the UK because of the SNP. The SG not fracking good enough says SMUAG the magic dragon. Prof Bell’s irritatingly hesitant and fractured delivery of his ‘where are we now 1 year on’ from the referendum gloomy summary. Mundell keeking over the wall waving the union jack telling us it could have been worse for us.

    OH did Jed Bush really propose the Maggie T’s face appear on the $10 bill?

    Switched it off before ‘Your call’ I’m off to eat my porridge 🙂

    PS:
    Prof David Bell and David Eiser Stirling Uni:

    http://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/blog/funding-smith-budget-2018-evidence-devolution-further-powers-committee

  135. Robert Peffers says:

    @Andrew McLean says: 16 September, 2015 at 5:11 pm:

    ” … Now tell me that’s not a young Corbin!”

    Actually, Andrew, it is much more like a young Alastair Darling but then there’s plenty other Red Tories we could compare the new nuLabour leader to. They were always all Tories in Wolfies clothing.

  136. Famous15 says:

    The Unionist media in propaganda overdrive.

    To save any sensible analysis of what Mundell etc are saying here is a conclusion.

    The extra powers over taxation and welfare are a trap. A little line of crumbs to draw Scotland into the trap. Why else is Mundell and Cameron foaming at the mouth about the “frit” SNP.

    As a Yorkshire word much used by Maggy Thatcher you would think Cameron would be cautios in its use after his kindly description of Yorkshire people.

    Be FRIT ,be very FRIT. Albion is foaming at the mouth!

  137. Capella says:

    @ Macart – I agree. I hope Jeremy Corbyn succeeds in reviving the progressive left in the UK. England desparately needs to break out of the neoliberal prison that restricts their political vision. Seamus Milne’s article in the Guardian echoes that.

    A few voters may drift back to Labour in Scotland. But I believe most who are committed to independence will stay the course. There is no going back.

    Surely a progressive party which recognises every country’s right to self determination is an asset? If Corbyn’s Labour does not support that for Scotland (though he does for Ireland) then they are not progressive but colonial.

  138. galamcennalath says:

    Sir Tom Hunter in the Hootsman …

    “For me, personally, it’s time to move on, move forward and use the powers we have. The population decided, politicians are democratically elected and should and must respect the decision of the voters.”

    By this he means, the SNP should accept the No win in isolation to the wider picture.

    He doesn’t mean, WM should deliver the promises they made to achieve that No win!

    Nor, WM should respect the results of the GE in Scotland.

    What does it take to get some of these people to see what’s happening around them?

  139. Nana Smith says:

    Earlier post vanished?

    News full of Scotland can’t do this and can’t do that. Sick of it and especially sick of the likes of Mundell the clown who will give a speech later today. Here’s a wee snippet…

    Mr Mundell will claim that if the union did not exist, it would be invented and people would vote for it.

    “We must never forget that the people who benefit the most from the United Kingdom are not the strong and the successful, but the poorest, the weakest, and the most vulnerable,”

    Do these clowns ever listen to themselves.

    Anyhow here’s a few O/T links

    http://www.cityam.com/224490/scottish-independence-low-oil-prices-would-have-been-benefit-independent-scotland

    http://gulftoday.ae/portal/2b719f60-36f4-473c-9867-b2b9d16f31e0.aspx

    http://www.cityam.com/224347/scottish-independence-business-and-political-climate-scotland-calling-more-control-and-more

    Alex Salmond: Scotland Would Vote Yes If Another Referendum Was Held This Week

    https://archive.is/fYYYI

    https://antioligarch.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/revealed-how-naval-intelligence-tested-lethal-plague-bombs-off/

  140. Ian Brotherhood says:

    The article linked-to below is in a journal called Accounting, Organisations and Society’, and it’s called ‘Accounting for the dissolution of a nation state: Scotland and the Treaty of Union’, by Crawford Spence (2010).

    It won’t be accessible to everyone via the link- I only managed to read it because my uni subscribes to the provider. But if you can get a swatch at it somehow, please do. Basically, it explains where the ‘Equivalent’ went – the money that was paid to ‘smooth the process’. Who got that dosh?

    It’s perhaps a bit dry for some, but our old friend Daniel Defoe plays a major part, and the conclusions are pretty damming for BTUKOKers. It’s made pretty clear that the ‘Union’ was only ever about cash – the way that cash was handled gives the lie to there being any goodwill at any stage in the proceedings.

    The ‘Equivalent’ was, in effect, the great grand-daddy of the Barnett formula, and unless we can get our heads around what happened in 1707 then the descendants of the original ‘rogues’ (and their buddies in the City of London)will simply continue to play the same old trick.

    ‘The 1707 Treaty of Union remains the principle basis of Great Britain’s constitutional arrangements. Moreover, modern day ‘Equivalents’ are produced in the context of Scottish devolution, in the shape of the Barnett formula, in order to debate the extent to which the continually nebulous entity of ‘Scotland’ benefits from or contributes to the British exchequer.’ (p. 390)

    http://www.sciencedirect.com.eor.uhi.ac.uk/science/article/pii/S036136820900097X

  141. Jim says:

    O/T but what the fuck was Ally Ross on about today in ‘The Scum’?

    On Jeremy Corbyn’s debut at PMQs he supposes, ‘He’d just whine on about food banks, like all left-of-sanity nerds do when they are out of their economic depth.’

    I know Mr Ross likes a laugh and a bit of banter in his tv review column but I fail to see any joke in this.

    Now if you have a problem with food banks you shouldn’t ask the question as to why they should exist in this union but keep your mouth shut for fear of being branded an left-of-insanity nerd.

    Well fuck you Ally Ross and the horse you rode in on.

  142. Training Day says:

    Give Corbyn a chance?

    An unreconstructed Britnat who stayed loyal to Labour despite their prosecution of an illegal war? Who objected to New Labour so much that he er.. stayed in New Labour? Who stood shoulder to shoulder with the Tories to make us ‘better together’? Who appointed a supporter of Trident as his Defence Secretary and an unelected Lord-a-leapin’ to his Cabinet?

    Give Corbyn a chance? No chance.

  143. Grouse Beater says:

    WARNING

    Wingers might have spotted this already:

    There’s a concerted campaign from the extreme Right – no doubt Bitter Together somewhere behind it – to vilify the entire Referendum debate, all two years of it, and more. The line being taken is ‘it was divisive, it set Scot against Scot, family against family.’

    Indeed, the Scottish section of the Times published an article just a few days ago saying the same thing and quoting a poll – who concocted the poll and why is another matter.

    You’ll see people on the social media condemning the entire democratic debate as having absolutely no merit, it did no good, and caused only heartache. I’ve encountered those phony comments a lot this last week as the anniversary of the Referendum approaches.

    What they’re really saying is, Why don’t you bastards shut the fuck up and get on with your miserable lives!”

  144. Grouse Beater says:

    PS: I thought Corbyn’s PM QT pathetic.

    Every night is amateur night.

  145. Cadogan Enright says:

    @Glamaig 8.24

    Was the ‘independent economic review’ of Scottish Independence on Radio Scotland this morning by someone called Bell from Sterling University?

    If so, it was the same extraordinary drivel that was on Rdio Ulster

    Let me know

  146. gordoz says:

    Is anyone interested in Sir Tom Hunters views apart from the press. Hes all over the place and is feart of change
    Def not on Yes side so is quoted lots

    A real pain winger

  147. craig murray says:

    I would like to clear one thing up. I have shared platforms with Jeremy pretty often and he is not a plant, of that I am quite sure. He is what he seems to be.

    It is also true, I think, that he has not thought much about Scotland. I don’t much blame him – how much do we think about Islington? We actually don’t want English politicians bothering Scotland.

    Jeremy has specifically stated he is not a unionist, but a socialist. It is hardly surprising that his starting position should be that he would prefer the UK to stay together, given that Scotland originated the Labour Party and it is so difficult to get a socialist majority in England. But he is NOT a Britnat, he takes the view that Scotland is entitled to a referendum any time Scotland wants one. He does support Scotland’s right to self-determination, I know that for sure.

    The reason he has been so reticent on Scotland (even in Scotland) is that he has quite enough fights on his hands with the Labour “elite” already and doesn’t need to do this one yet. But there is no way a Corbyn led Labour Party would join in the antics of Project Fear.

    People in Scotland have good reason to hate the Labour Party. But from the comments here, we need to ask ourselves whether the goal is independence, or tribal hatred of the Labour Party? Corbyn has precisely the same corporate and mainstream media enemies as the SNP, and for precisely the same reasons. He is an extremely important potential ally. To treat Corbyn automatically as an enemy is foolish.

  148. unchillfiltered says:

    The MSM may well talk up Corbyn in Scotland an an attempt to dent the SNP’s return in June. But they cannot simultaneously screen out the savaging he will also be receiving from the London based media.
    Like with the FPTP voting system now favouring the SNP, the tipping point has also been reached where the London-centric nature of the media favours the supporters of Scottish independence. Because you cannot get away with playing two different games on the same pitch in front of the same crowd without them noticing.
    I was concerned about Corbyn’s effect on Scotland until he stood up at PMQT. He needed to exude “I can win a majority in 2020”. I don’t think he convinced anybody. His huge party mandate ensures deep divisions within the more right leaning PLP for the period running up to May ’16. Sticking with the SNP and a second referendum now looks like the shortest, surest route out of perpetual Toryland.

  149. Macart says:

    @Capella

    Y’know what they say Capella, ‘once you have seen or learned a thing, it cannot then be unseen or unlearned’.

    Westminster will always have Westminster’s best wishes at heart. The best anyone can hope for in Scotland is that those who inhabit those chambers are either a. amenable to friendly neighbouring parliaments or b. ignore us once no longer under their control.

    It will and can never have the best interests of Scotland or its electorate at heart. What it can be, with the right government, is a good neighbour and the only way I reckon it can have such a government is to encourage the people of England to engage with their politics and government again.

    I reckon the best way to do that is lead by example. 🙂

  150. Ken500 says:

    As part of the UK Scotland receives the lowest CAP payment in the EU. The EU gave Scotland an extra payment and Westminster took it and gave it to farmers in the rest of the UK. The Tory Minister actually said, ‘Better Together’.

  151. Grouse Beater says:

    Craig: Murray: “The reason he has been so reticent on Scotland (even in Scotland) is that he has quite enough fights on his hands with the Labour “elite” already and doesn’t need to do this one yet.”

    Is he so short of confederates that he needs a proxy, a spokesperson to explain his thinking, or should he not make a statement to the people of Scotland to apologise for the way his party demeaned a nation and undermined its democratic process?

    Can he take time to make plain how he wishes to develop the relationship in positive ways, and what real powers he hopes to agree to should he ever win a majority? We are, after all, part of the United Kingdom he seeks to serve.

    “To treat Corbyn automatically as an enemy is foolish.”

    He is being treated with all the scepticism an Englishman deserves.

  152. Nana Smith says:

    O/T links Third time lucky maybe?

    I tried to post earlier with a link to Mundell’s speech which he plans to spew today but as the links did not show up, there may have been a gremlin somewhere.

    and if one Mundell is not enough the junior is standing for election next year, he knows how well Westminster pays it’s liars.

    http://www.cityam.com/224490/scottish-independence-low-oil-prices-would-have-been-benefit-independent-scotland

    http://gulftoday.ae/portal/2b719f60-36f4-473c-9867-b2b9d16f31e0.aspx

    http://www.cityam.com/224347/scottish-independence-business-and-political-climate-scotland-calling-more-control-and-more

    https://www.facebook.com/Smaug-SNP-Members-Against-Unconventional-Oil-and-Gas-1146464535367153/

  153. Glamaig says:

    @Cadogan Enright 9:47
    Didnt catch the name, but of Stirling Uni, so doubtless the same.. Another Professor being wheeled out ‘yes I’ll gladly speak on the radio – how much are the expenses? what would you like me to say?’

    Was broadcast on GMS sometime between 6.45-7.30 during the biggest and most shameless Project Fear session Ive heard for oh, about a year. Makes me almost nostalgic. Worth listening to the whole lot.

  154. Grouse Beater says:

    Murray: Jeremy has specifically stated he is not a unionist, but a socialist.

    Authoritarian socialists are very quick to slap down the SNP, telling us we are small, narrow minded people, while they are outward looking internationalists, as if somehow, an independence supporter has no yearning for Scotland to be a true functioning nation in international matters.

    My essay on Corbyn here:

    https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/08/14/the-corbyn-effect/

  155. Jim says:

    @Grouse Beater

    There’s a concerted campaign from the extreme Right – no doubt Bitter Together somewhere behind it – to vilify the entire Referendum debate, all two years of it, and more. The line being taken is ‘it was divisive, it set Scot against Scot, family against family.’
    ________________
    Yeah, in ‘the scum’ today, that staunch independence/UKOK supporter Bill Leckie was saying at the same tactic.

    In my own experience the only visible anger I witnessed was from one person that I know telling everyone and his/her dog how wrong we were to want Independence for Scotland.

    The only other comment which did rile but were not worth rising to came from an old English woman who was very arrogant, condescending and apparently found it extremely humorous that Scots thought they could survive without subsidies from the Motherland.

    Oh how she laughed and really pissed me off but I didn’t react as nothing I said would have removed the fact that she imagined she was some kind of missionary who missed the trip to Kenya and ended up in Scotland.

  156. Glamaig says:

    I heard the words on GMS this morning ‘Nicola Sturgeon promised there would not be another referendum for a generation’.

    I am fairly sure she has never ‘promised’ any such thing therefore this is a lie. Does anybody know what she actually said? There is a complaint going in if I can find what she actually said.

  157. heedtracker says:

    “He does support Scotland’s right to self-determination, I know that for sure.”

    Its a nice thing to say, but JC’s red tory SLabour loathes, detests and fights everything and anything concerning Scotland’s right to self-determination. If they ever get back in control of their Scotland region, they’d maybe not destroy Holyrood but they’d do everything they could to end Scots self determination. Such is the power and glory of ukok bettertogetherness.

    JC’s SLab are fully backed by UKOK media in Scotland, led and coordinated in Scotland by BBC vote SLab Scotland, all of it run by red and blue tory placemen.

    Its only been 5 days now, so maybe JC really is the social democratic messiah his acolytes keep saying he is.

  158. Capella says:

    BTW by “progressive” I mean tending to promote democratic decision making. Any policy which develops democracy is good. The Greeks invented the word from demos = people and kratos = power.

    Of course the plutocrats will attack democracy and anyone who promotes it. Of course they have far greater means at their disposal. Let’s not help them in this forum, which is the only platform most of us have.

    BT made much about the evils of “narrow nationalism”. I agree – and yes they were the worst offenders. So we can appreciate the efforts of Podemos in Spain, Syriza in Greece (albeit badly led now) and other international movements supporting self-determination and greater democracy. If such a movement emerges in England surely that deserves our support too.

  159. Jim says:

    craig murray says:
    17 September, 2015 at 9:52 am

    I would like to clear one thing up. I have shared platforms with Jeremy pretty often and he is not a plant, of that I am quite sure. He is what he seems to be.
    _______________
    He is undoubtedly what he seems to be but I can’t help feeling that he is a boon for the Tories as he may well attract a great chunk of those that helped elect the 56 back to the bosom of the Labour party but still not have a chance of winning the next general election.

  160. handclapping says:

    @Glamaig
    Neither Alex nor Nicola had any authority to promise only one referendum in a generation.
    Apart from the ridiculosity of attempting to subvert the sovereignty of the Scottish people, he/she is subject to the power of the people in the SNP at their National Conference.
    If their Aberdeen Conference says their will be an opportunity for a Referendum in the next Parliament, then it will be in their manifesto and, if that opportunity arises, there will be a Referendum.

  161. Al-Stuart says:

    Chic McGregor says: 17 September, 2015 at 1:47 am …Corbyn … winning back Labour ‘defectors’ in Scotland ..

    Chic, your point is understood, but as I am one of the Labour voters who “defected (in the 2007 election) please let me disavow many of the possibility that we can somehow be simply “won” back.

    I will NEVER EVER vote Labour again. They betrayed me and MANY, MANY other Labour voters.

    New Labour welfare reforms were brought in by the Labour Blairite Secretary of State for Work & Pensions James Purnell. He hired ATOS to carry out New Labour’s gerrymandered crooked Work Capability Assessment, which in part killed my friend Mick Moore ( https://archive.is/4dl4p ). So far tens of thousands of “fit for work” people with disabilities have died under DWP harassment and duress. FACT.

    So if any Labour people read this, understand that Alex Salmond will more likely join New Labour than I, and many former Labour voters would or could ever simply be “won back”. New Labour are complicit with Old Tory in killing the most vulnerable in society. Labour, old, new, rebranded, reinvented or whatever has structural problems that may well be terminal

    As for that creep – Blairite millionaire James Purnell ( https://archive.is/d0Kzx ) ? This Better Not Together article has it right – these career politicians put themselves first. How do I know? Just look at where James Purnell is now: https://archive.is/E9IkF Red Tory New Labour Purnell is a dodgy socialist – as a comrade of the Labour Party he now takes £295,000 off of the BBC every year. So far he has had £590,000 off of this post-parliamentary taxpayer funded sinecure at the BBC.

    Best of luck to Jeremy Corbyn, but all I want is for Scotland to become independent from the Tory hell-hole of the southern UK.

  162. craig murray says:

    Grouse Beater

    Yes, I visit your blog pretty well every day and I thought it was an excellent essay.

    I don’t think Jeremy is an “authoritarian socialist”. I quite readily concede he hasn’t got his head round Scotland yet. But one thing he definitely is not is a “red Tory” and he is very evidently gripped in a bitter struggle against the red Tories and their media allies.

    Jeremy has vastly more beliefs in common with Mhairi Black than he does with Kezia Dugdale. We should be courting him not joining the corporatist agenda of destroying him.

  163. Glamaig says:

    @handclapping

    Yes of course it is totally ridiculous. You and I know she said no such thing.

    This ‘promise’ is a fabrication of the MSM. I have spent some time searching for original quotes by Nicola on the subject and have found none. Whatever she originally said has been twisted and magnified out of proportion and repeated ad nauseam with the words ‘promise’ and ‘vow’.

    Try googling ‘Nicola Sturgeon promise referendum once in a generation’ and you get dozens of pages of links to Unionist media outlets echoing the phrase they have manufactured, but no hint of what Nicolas actual words were or when she said it.

  164. Flower of Scotland says:

    @Cal 8.46am

    I quite agree with you. I get my news from lots of sources but in the main I find the International news programmes are so much better. Always keeping in mind that they are all biased.

    I used to get a Dundee Courier delivered every day but stopped that over three years ago. My first visit is to Wings in a morning, afternoon, evening and at night! I also visit Stu,s Twitter page and get the news before even the EBC. Wingers also put up the best links ever, so there is no need to miss anything!

  165. Dr Jim says:

    It’s amazing the amount of NO voters who then and now still threaten to leave Scotland if we become Independent

    I think this type of statement relates directly to their character and what I mean by that is to say (If I don’t get my own way I won’t play anymore)(I’m taking my ball if I’m not the centre forward) I don’t know any YES voters who have said they would leave if we lost, they would keep trying to make things better

    So then I come to the conclusion that NO voters actually aren’t interested in giving anything “To” Scotland, just seems they want to take “From” Scotland

    That being the case why don’t they just leave now, they really have no interest in Scotlands future their only interest is in themselves “Now” so they are actually the people we don’t need or want and will never need

    We get the “I love living in Scotland brigade” so I voted NO, when they have no intention of staying here, they’re only here to work and then they go home, and that offended me then and still does now because I would never dream of altering someone else’s country just because I felt like it at the time

    So if I can just suggest to those people who want to nip into my house steal my furniture empty my Grankids piggy bank and then fCUK off

    Knock on my door now and I’ll give you all my money and drive you to the airport
    Coz there might be a refugee coming who might be interested in building a future in Scotland, I know I am

  166. Grouse Beater says:

    Craig Murray: Jeremy has vastly more beliefs in common with Mhairi Black than he does with Kezia Dugdale. We should be courting him not joining the corporatist agenda of destroying him.

    Well, I’ll wait to hear him praise Scotland’s renaissance, but meanwhile you can court him. But it’s in your own time – don’t tender an expense claim. 🙂

  167. gordoz says:

    Setting time limits on rights, (even on Indyref), is classic authoritarian West Minster crap.

    So if popular opinion hits 65 % for Indy tomorrow, 3 yrs or 15yrs, but some politician says no, thats it yer telt – right oh ok ?

    What about those too young to vote 2014 but eligible 2016; they are to be denied. What about those with health issues right lets deny them with time bars oh yes.

    Well then lets deny a change of Parliament for a generation then – same principle applies to such logic.

    The will of the people is sovereign, not a parliament and not one as clearly corrupt as west Minster!

    Time for that awkward decision residents of Scotland.

    Who is Sovereign Scotland or Britain over the right of determination. Keep the politics out of it.

    Maybe that need decided by a referendum.

  168. gordoz says:

    £31,000 raised for IScot brilliant to everyone involved. 🙂

  169. heedtracker says:

    We should be courting him not joining the corporatist agenda of destroying him.

    Exact same crew cooked up their 40% majority YES shyste in 1979, they stole Scotland’s oil with McCrone, Scots heavy industry wiped out, then they gave it all up to Snatcher Thatcher and her red tory successors and then to cap all that, last year JC’s merry band of Lab and SLab blamed Thatcher world on guess who

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/just-for-the-record/

  170. Marie Clark says:

    Hi guys. Can I ask a daft question here?.

    It seems that project fear 2 is underway, big time. All the pish flying about now about last years the referendum. The really are giein it laldy.

    My question is this : since they are going at it big time, and it’s them doing all the talking about referendum 2. what are they going to have left to hit us with when the time comes for the next ref.

    We have heard it all before. Most of us don’t even listen anymore to the bilge that they spew out. We can see right through them, and it seems slowly, but surely, more folk are becoming aware of this. So what’s the point.

    I don’t listen to EBC or read any of the vile newspapers. Read the National and the Sunday Herald. Don’t pay the EBC tax for the telly, and don’t miss it one little bit.

  171. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    O/T

    Deeply offensive piece in today’s Sun from Robert Benzie, chief political supporter at the Toronto Star. He believes Scotland is in the best position at the moment because it allows us to force more subsidy out of the UK treasury.

    rbenzie [at] thestar [dot] ca

  172. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    jim at 10.31

    In the longer term it will be no disaster if we lose unreliable friends in the socialist and Green camps. These are always the more vulnerable and less dependable in our support.

    Please note I am not attacking their political position but merely pointing out an unconditional commitment to independence is the basis of our core support and we need to push that up to majority level.
    Independence does not guarantee a green Scotland or a socialist Scotland. Independence only guarantees That Scots will choose their own governments to govern according to Scots majority priorities

  173. pitchfork says:

    An article has just appeared on the front page of the guardian on-line which concludes by asking for submissions on how readers think Scotland has changed 1 year on from the referendum.

    The article in question is entitled “How does Scotland feel a year on from the independence referendum?”

    I know it is the Guardian, but people might want to post responses anyway.

    I don’t want to paste in a direct link. I’m not sure how to do the archive whatsit, but I think that would be moot anyway as I don’t think I’d be able to use the relevant web page at work (work blocks access to archived links when I click them). Anyway I’m not sure if people would be able to submit responses to the article from an archived page (?)

    Cheers – Chris

  174. Flower of Scotland says:

    Craig Murray@9.52

    Sorry. I don’t agree with anything that you said above!

  175. galamcennalath says:

    To my mind the SNP have only made two significant strategic mistakes in the last decade or so.

    The first isn’t particularly relevant to the debate here, but I’ll mention it anyway. When they rebranded Executive to Government they should also have rebranded NHS (Scotland) to something more meaningful. Half of Scots thought the NHS was a UK wide institution during the referendum and therefore thought it was either at risk, or didn’t understand the funding arguments.

    The second mistake was made on 19th September. The SNP should have said then what they’ve said more recently. The prepared response to a No win should have been to say they accepted that DevoMax/Home Rule won, and they would now ensure WM delivered. This approach was used at the GE but it should have been a clear position from the 19th.

    If not immediate, it should certainly been a response to Cameron’s winning rant later on the 19th.

    This early positioning would ensured that there was no room for Unionists to argue the No win was anything other than conditional on delivery of promises. Clearly they see it as an absolute win, and in no way conditional. That could have been avoided.

  176. Lochside says:

    Ref: ‘The Equivalent’….bribe paid to Scottish ‘nobles’ for their money ‘lost’ (never mind about the three thousand poor sods left deid and rotting in the Panama swamp)..shrewdly invested in the embryonic ‘Royal Bank of Scotland in exchange for our freedom…. plus ca change eh?

    Meanwhile, tractors popping up everywhere…Alex Bell on ‘CALL UKAYE’ selling the jerseys faster than Tom Hunter used to sell sannies out the back of his van. apparently he now wants to know ‘WHY’ re. Independence. This from an apparent previously SNP adviser!….nose out of joint perhaps…career being re-aligned? And why now?

    Toon clock comes to mind, sitting alongside Simon Pia patronising us….the 50% of the population that has grown not gone back into our boxes, as they pray for every everloving day!

    And last but not least JC….The unsuspecting Judas Goat designed to lead the ‘waverers’, SLAB defectors to the SNP, back into the slaughter house of Unionist politics and neverending Tory rule.

  177. Robert Peffers says:

    Let’s not beat about the bush, Westminster is now, and always has been, the problem. JC will make no difference.

    The Palace of Westminster is now, and always has been, the Parliament of the three country Kingdom of England. Note that it has never been neither the parliament of a, “country”, nor of a United Kingdom of either Great Britain nor a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Such titles have always been purely nominal.

    This is clearly demonstrated in the words of David Mundell who quotes a government commissioned paper thus, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as The United Kingdom”. So let us look at a few historic facts.

    First of all they told the people that the whole, “United Kingdom”, would be divided into more or less equal constituent parts, (constituencies). Each constituency would elect a spokesperson and all spokespersons would be equal. There was no recognition of political parties at this point. Now if the whole United Kingdom had been just a United Kingdom that would have been real democracy. Sadly it has never been the true set-up of Westminster. How do you remove from any elected representative their natural feelings of patriotism for their own country when the two kingdoms, (four countries), have spent their entire previous histories as warring enemies?

    So the reality was a large English contingent had dominated Westminster when it was titled, “The Kingdom of England Parliament. The Treaty of Union was a forced marriage between the existing Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland that were part way through what Westminster still today calls, “The Jacobite Rebellions”. The dates are : –

    1688, (English Glorious Revolution);
    1706/7 Treaty of Union:
    1745 End of the Jacobite Uprisings at Battle of Culloden.

    In the beginning the so called parliament of, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”, (that actually also included Ireland), was just a paper exercise with the addition of the Scottish contingent into the de facto, “Kingdom of England Parliament”. Now remember this was during the Jacobite so called, “Jacobite Rebellion”, that ran on for another 39 years after the Treaty of Union.

    The two supposed parts of the United Kingdom were fighting each other in extremely bloody wars while the new Scottish members of the de facto parliament of the Kingdom of England sat together at Westminster Palace.

    Then, in 1834, the Westminster Exchequer was faced with the problem of disposing two cart-loads of wooden tally sticks, part of the old obsolete accounting system of 1826. that had not been used since 1826. The Clerk of Works used two underfloor stoves in the basement of the House of Lords to do so. By 6PM, the HOL was on fire. The flames soon spread to the rest of the Palace.

    Both Houses of Parliament were destroyed along the other buildings on the site. Only Westminster Hall was saved as were he Jewel Tower, the Undercroft Chapel, the Cloisters and Chapter House of St Stephen’s and Westminster Hall.

    So what we have now is the purpose built Parliament Of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but it is now the de facto Parliament of only the country of England as the demographics are 633 English; 59 Scottish; 40 Welsh and 18 N.Irish members. That is 633 English and 117 others. Cameron’s EVEL will only serve to make the Englanders the parliament and the others more isolated and more powerless.

  178. Dorothy Devine says:

    OT Burt the Herald informs us of the ” honesty ” of Straw and Rifkind are honourable men and did not break parliamentary lobbying rules.

    So ” grease my palm with silver Guv ” is the standard of honesty ,integrity required of our lords and masters.

  179. Chic McGregor says:

    @Al-Stuart
    “Chic McGregor says: 17 September, 2015 at 1:47 am …Corbyn … winning back Labour ‘defectors’ in Scotland ..

    Chic, your point is understood, but as I am one of the Labour voters who “defected (in the 2007 election) please let me disavow many of the possibility that we can somehow be simply “won” back.

    I will NEVER EVER vote Labour again. They betrayed me and MANY, MANY other Labour voters.”

    Its not you I’m worried about Al, or the many other politically aware converts but it is those that are not so enlightened I am worried about.

    Those who only take a passing interest in politics at best or even are politically averse.

    The people who still vote because it is their right/duty but who do not take the trouble to educate themselves properly or have not chanced on the opportunity to do so because of unionist media manipulation.

    They are generally sound bite driven or rely on Anti Beeb.

    Sadly, I believe even after the period of political enlightenment Scotland has experienced, that group is still a very significant portion of the electorate at large, perhaps even a majority, although one would hope a minority of converts. But still likely to be a significant minority IMO. Enough to make a big electoral difference.

    There is too an electorially less significant group on the left who while politically aware, may be sufficiently troubled by ‘working class solidarity across borders’ ideology to be enticed back into the neo old Labour fold even if they do believe Scots should have normal levels of self government as well.

    Of course, I do hope I am wrong about all this.

  180. Dr Jim says:

    There might be: Could be: If the people want: They can have the choice: of a Referendum says the First Minister

    Nothing wrong with that: Democracy: What’s the problem?

    News just in: “Terror Alert” Biggest threat ever in the history of Terror
    News just in: “Oil all gone” Economy doomed forever
    News just in: “Unemployment figures up” no future for the young
    News just in: “Business confidence at all time low”

    If this was a football match between Scotland and England they’d bring their own Referees, their own Cameras, sneak twelve players on the park and dress up Messi Ronaldo and Gareth Bale in England shirts, play it at Wembley and ban all Scottish supporters from turning up to watch

    And then if we still looked like winning they’d have an electrical blackout and void the game to be replayed in ten years time

  181. gordonbrownstuff says:

    As regards R Benzie….Just what is it about these Canadians and other brit colonials who continually berate Scottish independence? Go away you are fooling no-one!

  182. Dorothy Devine says:

    OT Again the Herald – the Moning one has denied having an offshore account , I do hope someone knows where the bodies are buried and with the kind of attention the Herald has given this woman that they have to disclose all!

  183. call me dave says:

    Kezia in strident mood about education..no!..er independence …er no! education…no independence Geez!

    Can she not ask this in two separate questions it all got lost in translation and was easily batted over the boundary rope by Sturgeon with not even a sign of pespiring.

    Next! Ruthie…

  184. Brian Powell says:

    Craig Murray

    SNP can work with Corbyn in Westminster, but the problem here is any sentimental move to Labour supports the very people we spent so long trying to be rid of.

    The Slab politicians made no effort to support the SG, and they are Unionists, no matter what Corbyn claims he is.

    In fact the very essence of the Lab socialists is a unionist approach, Glasgow/Newcastle, Manchester/Montrose they must all be seen the same and treated as one, we were told over and over again, so he can’t be anything else. He claimed that himself.

  185. Macart says:

    @Craig Murray

    Oh, Mr Corbyn isn’t above playing politics and has indeed stated his position on Scotland quite clearly in regards to his own beliefs as you outline them. How and ever I watched that interview on Scotland 2015 during his ‘whirlwind’ tour and pretty much the first thing out of his mouth was the blatant lie ‘Salmond promised once in a generation’ guff with which we are constantly beaten over the head with by both terrified politicos and the never intentionally accurate media.

    Many of us are sick to the back teeth of these practices or rather politics as it is practised. Mr Corbyn may very well be ‘what he seems to be’, but that gives people no reason to trust him or Labour. They are still very much the same party they were last year and the year before that.

    He has a job of work on his hands to earn any such trust.

  186. call me dave says:

    Sarah Boyack; Patrick Harvie and Mudoch Fraser lead on fracking questions for different reasons.

    Patrick wants it banned
    Murdoch wants it to proceed
    Boyack, just because, and we (labour) want to see what’s in your manifesto asap!

    Sometimes you can’t win! 🙂

  187. JaMur says:

    Labour can still do one.

    Different shovel, same shite.

  188. Chic McGregor says:

    @Ian
    The Equivalent was not supposed to be recompense for Darien but to compensate Scots for taking on, via taxation, a share of the huge English national debt.

    Only about a third of the agreed sum was paid and even then instead of the promised gold, it was mostly paid in English promissory notes.

    It should also be noted that Darien, while politically naive and locationally disadvantaged from a health perspective did have the basis of a sound business plan, at least on paper.

    Losses incurred were private in nature and did not add to Scotland’s small national debt.

    This contrasts with the South Sea Bubble, one of the earliest ‘Union Dividends’ where the non-viability of the business plan was known by the instigators from the outset but was a deliberate money grab with politicians and ‘entrepreneurs’ working in cahoots to rob investors. The first major example of such a coordinated scum scam.

    The losses of the SSB completely dwarfed those of Darien.

  189. galamcennalath says:

    Chic McGregor says:

    Those who only take a passing interest in politics at best. .. who still vote because it is their right/duty but who do not take the trouble to educate themselves properly or have not chanced on the opportunity to do so because of unionist media manipulation.

    They are generally sound bite driven or rely on Anti Beeb.

    Yes, they are the hard nuts to crack.

    The hardcore BritNats will never be converted. At the other end of the No spectrum are those who now see the BT sales pitch just isn’t materialising – they are shifting by themselves.

    Between are those who don’t just need convincing, they need to be persuaded that actually engaging in the debate matters to them!

    I suspect many of those need to see strong economic arguments for indy, rather than just social ones.

  190. Brian Powell says:

    Nanasmith

    So it doesn’t matter if they were corrupt, only if money had changed hands would it be an offence!

    So same as known crooks planning a bank robbery, nothing to worry about til they do it.

  191. manandboy says:

    The only game at Westminster is getting the electorate to continue to believe that No won the Referendum on Scottish Independence. So far, they are winning.

    It is that belief, that single thread, that is holding the Union together and preventing rUK from bankruptcy.

    Westminster’s hope, now one year old, is that this belief, in what is a lie, will hold. Sadly, they are getting a lot of cooperation, including in Scotland. This Tory Government do not want this faith disturbed for obvious reasons, and every possible move will be measured against this. When Cameron & crew think about strategy, this ‘game’ is never far from their thoughts.

  192. kininvie says:

    @chic
    All I can say is we’re seeing little evidence of slippage back to Labour on the doorsteps (and we’re canvassing 3 times weekly). True, it’s early days for any Corbyn effect to kick in, but many people whose natural home is Labour remained scunnered by the spectacle of Labour & Tories working together last year.

  193. Arabs for Independence says:

    call me dave @ 12:24

    The three of them combined to demonstrate that the Scottish Govt’s approach is the right one to take.

    Actually Nicola did win in that case.

  194. schrodingers cat says:

    i think we need to hold out a hand of friendship to corbyn

    for no other reason than when he is brought down by the blairites, we cannot be seen to have had a hand in this “et tu brute” moment

    I think he may well draw some labour supporters back from the snp, but his assassination by the blairites will be the death nell for labour in Scotland

    their support will fall off a cliff, this is possibly one of the “game changers” Nicola is talking about.

    either way, the labour leadership election, the subsequent in fighting, the media character assassination of corbyn, are out with our control.
    the snp just need to carry on opposing austerity and trident as they have been doing. labour can support, oppose or abstain as is their want

    it isn’t our job to stick the knife in corbyn, we don’t need to either. people are cueing up to destroy labour in Scotland for us.

    the fruit is ripe and about to fall into our laps, don’t over reach to pick it, keep the heid and keep the unionists guessing, don’t be tempted to demand, like mundell and Cameron, that a referendum should be(or not be) in the manifesto, that can wait till spring. no one else will produce their manifest 8 months out from may 2016, why should we?

    but highlight the blairite rebels hypocracy at every chance, remember, labour in holyrood are all blairites

  195. Brian Powell says:

    Anybody here from Common Space?

    I can’t get the comment box to work and the text is all squeezed together in that part of the page.

  196. While the SNP and its 56 MPs should work with Jeremy Corbyn in policy areas where there is agreement.

    However we should never forget that Corbyn is a unionist and will not
    do the SNP or Scotland any favours.

    Though I don’t doubt he genuinely believes in his policies, it remains to be seen just how many of them are adopted or survive un-amended.

    As for his idea that the members of his shadow cabinet will take turns at the dispatch box to face David Cameron at PMQS, to me is a non starter.

    The reason being he is the leader of the main opposition party and potential future prime minister and as such, it is his role to hold Cameron and his government to account.

    I also find it insulting to read of Westminster being described as the Peoples’ Parliament, because people from various parts of the UK E-mailed questions to Corbyn to ask Cameron at PMQS.

    Well why not do away the middle man, then everyone in the UK can send their questions by post or E-Mail directly to Cameron to answer.

    Need then for PMQs

  197. David Anderson says:

    The problem with the ‘Corbyn is a plant theory’ is it is fucking bonkers and anyone uttering it or giving it any credence whatsoever is a moron. That’s the revised tame version. Jeezo…

  198. heedtracker says:

    If JC is going to lead his UKOK people to the promised Labour land, one thing he might offer is HS2 up to Glasgow, stopping at Embro, Dundee, Aberdeen for fcuks sake, and maybe even Inverness(a town even further oop north than Sheffield)

    They could call it the Bettertogether Express, pay for it with their nuke sub money saving when they scrap their Trident for teamGB greatness farce, what they don’t have anyway or even bettertogether finance wise, dump the cost on the UKOK national debt mountain, that we all have to pretend doesn’t exist.

    Or he’s full of it.

  199. call me dave says:

    @Arabs for Independence

    We both agree on that I think. 🙂

    I was just using a turn of phrase, your observations were the same as mine and, I hope, would be the view of most listeners and watchers. It was punch and Judy stuff for Sturgeon!

    “That’s the way to do it!”

    PS:
    Sometimes I wish I was younger..

    https://archive.is/2RZJb

    PPS:
    As a ‘nuetral’ footie fan I had to laugh at the Monstering of the Celtic manager Ronnie Deila in the MSM and I had it mentioned to me by a long time aquaintance, and Celtic fan.

    Well he’s labour and it’s a change from politics. He’s not a happy bunny for both reasons.

    He cracked an old chestnut from way back this morning .. Asking

    “What’s the difference between Celtic and a 13A plug in Europe!”

    As an electrician and a footie fan I knew the answer. 🙂

  200. The Once in a Generation was never a `promise` it was an `opinion` in the forward of the White Paper.

    “If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost. Decisions about Scotland would remain in the hands of others.”

    Unless someone can show a promise referenced somewhere else I think this is the passage that the Unionist media are obfuscating.

  201. Chic McGregor says:

    Spot on SC.

    kininvie, if the polls do hold, he will be disappeared before 2016.

  202. Socrates MacSporran says:

    O-T maybe, but, David Cameron welcoming Martin Johnston and one of the England Women’s team to Downing Street, to show-off the Webb-Ellis Trophy prior to the Rugby World Cup, just might be worth one or two No voters to switch to Yes.

    DC simply cannot help showing what a Little Englander he is.

  203. Tam Jardine says:

    Re the once in a generation ‘promise’- as far as I can tell, if the SNP or any other party wins an election on a mandate to hold a referendum – on independence, or the number of bananas that should be in a bunch: that’s democracy.

    We’re the SNP keen to stress to the public how vital it was they take this opportunity as we may not get another one? Absolutely! At no point were further referenda ruled out, nor could they be.

    I also find the idea of a second referendum being ‘it for a generation’ ridiculous. Of course, voters would decide if we have another one.

    Maybe if we hadnt been subjected to the media and UK civil service onslaught for 3 years the decision would have an authenticity about it and would have stuck yes or no.

    As it stands the conduct of the UK state all but guaranteed another referendum and I can’t imagine they will leave us to decide ourselves next time round.

    A decision made under coersion is never going to be definitive.

  204. Chic McGregor says:

    @galamcennalath

    Agree, but Corbyn is an additional complexity which needs to be handled carefully.

    I think the safest approach to it should be something like “Nice man, shame about the rest”.

    i.e. SNP attacks should be confined to the vestigial Blairites in the party and pointing out Corbyn will be Caesered sooner or later.

  205. yesindyref2 says:

    Hunter set up a website June/July 2014 with the purported idea of producing impartial information. Yet on a TV panel his language was Unionist, his problems were with the Indy arguments, not the BT ones, so even if thought he wqas impartial, he wasn’t.

    This report “One Year On” is authored by David Bell. Single author, no balancing author like perhaps Stiglitz.

    As we know, Bell was anti-Indy. If Hunter was “impartial” he would have made sure the report was balanced.

    However, it is possible Hunter supports Devo-Max, and is settling for a Westminster offereing, as the report was critical of the current Scotland Act.

  206. People Carrier says:

    I’m confused. Help me. What am I not getting in the discussion regarding “once in a generation/lifetime…”?

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=nicola+sturgeon+says+once+in+a+generation+decision&FORM=HDRSC3#view=detail&mid=C011842CF6D562BD8927C011842CF6D562BD8927

    We won’t beat them by denying what was said and realistically, implied – that’s just political Westminstering (sophistry). I appreciate I might be missing something, but the argument that it’s meant to represent a ‘political’ generation lacks credibility in light of what was said (and a wee bit disingenuous IMO – it is an inelegant approach to reconciling what is wished in light of what was stated).

    I agree that changed circumstances do alter things (is this what I am missing – is this what was made clear during the referendum?), and I agree that NS addressed a question on this in one of the pre-referendum debates on TV (she was wailed at afterwards by the partisan audience).

    IMO this issue needs to be tackled in a way other than trying to deny that the statements were not said, or taken out of context, and/or the meaning actually different from that normally construed. The changed circumstance and people choice route is decent, but will only retain focus if we disarm the “generation/lifetime” statements by accepting what they appeared to imply? IMO the case for another referendum will be better served by the application of people pressure exerted through YES affiliated organisations, civic groups, SNP, Greens etc. – in effect, a classic, civic Scottish community driven demand. Part of that will of course be the SNP having a manifesto commitment and circumstantial explanation as to when and how it would be implemented. A new YES campaign organisation could be tasked with co-ordinating the civic approach?

  207. Effijy says:

    Look the B*****’S are toying with your mind. Don’t let them

    Nicola never said it was a once in a generation referendum!
    She wouldn’t as she is good enough to acknowledge that if the majority want another referendum this year or next, they will have one.
    This is what democracy is about and what it isn’t about in Westminster.

    The Media and the multi-coloured Tories suggest that we are liars, if we, the electorate, the people, the spirit of the nation, demand another referendum, this time free from UK corruption.

    Could we take a look at the Lie that is the Vow,
    How about Carmichael the Liar who wasted £1,000,000
    of public money on an enquiry that proved him a liar, that made him admit he is a liar, and now it seems we need
    more money wasted on 3 judges to consider if a proven and admitted liar is indeed a liar and a waster?

    How about Brown’s no more pension lie, or his no more transplants lie, and no more blood transfusions lie.

    Nicola agrees its best to follow the democratic will of the people, while Westminster agrees it best to fool the people.

  208. John king says:

    Who cares what was or not said by Nicola Sturgeon?

    I don’t see any reason to agonise over an unguarded comment made by her or Alex Salmond and to allow the carping from Labour to the effect that they are somehow going back on a binding agreement is quite breathtaking in its hypocrisy!

    We are a sovereign nation are we’ll not be hogtied by people who would’nt know how to honour promises made if it meant their life, how many manifesto commitments have they broken just to have the media gloss over them in the hope we can’t remember what we had for breakfast yesterday?

    the vow anyone?

    I could’nt give a monkeys what was or was not “promised”!

  209. tartanarse says:

    Time will ruin Project Fear.

    They have used all of their ammo thinking it would need any more after September. People weren’t convinced.

    Vote rigging aside (I know this site disapproves of such talk)it was of course very close and would have been won if not for scaring old folk.

    As these old folk reduce in number, they are replaced with a generation that aren’t owed anything by the Brit state.

    The more time passes from Ref1 the better. BT can say, things are exactly the same as they were at Ref1 all arguments remain.

    Except they’re not. and they won’t be. They’ll be worse. Not only will they be worse thanks to folks Scotland didn’t vote for, but they’ll continue to get worse. Scotland will clearly see (those that haven’t already) that WM is not going to deliver for anyone except themselves, especially those whinging non establishment voting Jockos.

    In my opinion, SNP should simply sort the currency issue and everything else is irrelevant, debunked at round one.

    Folks are quite clearly happy with SNP. A 2nd NO vote will be disastrous for Scotland. There will be no point in the SNP afterwards as WM will truly and quite rightly bury it forever, not a generation.

    BTW, Stu, if you are getting a chance to read this, hope your Dad and rest of the family are ok.

  210. Macart says:

    @John King

    Oh Alex did say those words… as a personal opinion. It was the opinion of many folk, ‘once in a lifetime opportunity, once in a generation etc. Here’s the thing though, nowhere and I do mean nowhere will anyone find those words as part of a. the Edinburgh agreement or b. Notes of policy, law or government record as the stated outcome of the referendum. They have only ever been uttered as a matter of personal opinion.

    There’s only one thing and one thing only which decides the regularity of any future vote and that is the will of the electorate, end of. If the Scottish electorate feel the result of the referendum to have been fraudulently achieved in any way whatsoever. If they feel the delivery of promises to be somewhat short of what they were led to believe, then they have an absolute right to tell both governments what they want. One to take their false promises, lacklustre settlement and FUD and ‘GIRUT’. The other, to get busy scheduling another referendum at the very next opportunity. 🙂

  211. Kevin Evans says:

    I think the SNP should in the 2016 manifesto go hell for leather this is going to be a vote that WILL lead to another refurendum.

    Bullish you might think but once I explain you’ll see the sense.

    1. If people convincingly vote SNP we know people want another crack at independence.
    2. If people don’t vote SNP and stick in a lab/Tory coalition we push them to use the vow and show the country what a mess the vow was and how Scotland got shafted leading to – independence.

  212. Will Podmore says:

    Effijy wrote “Nicola never said it was a once in a generation referendum!”
    On October 15, 2013 on BBC’s Daily Politics, Ms Sturgeon said the referendum was a “once in a generation event, possibly once in a lifetime for Scotland”.
    The SNP’s ‘manifesto’ for the referendum, ‘Scotland’s Future’, said on page one: “If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation is lost.” In his preface Mr Salmond wrote of the referendum: “It is a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland – a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way.”

  213. john king says:

    Kevin Evans

    hmmm voting for Labour out of sheer malice?

    That could be THE most dastardly The most cunning, THE most evil plot in the history of these Isles!

    your not Lex Luthor are you?

  214. john king says:

    Will Podmore
    And your point is?

    We also had Gordon Brown promise us the nearest thing to FULL FISCAL AUTONOMY
    I cant see it,
    is he hiding it behind his back as a surprise?

  215. Anagach says:

    Will Podmore says:
    On October 15, 2013 on BBC’s Daily Politics, Ms Sturgeon said the referendum was a “once in a generation event, possibly once in a lifetime for Scotland”.

    An opinion, an observation, I fail to see any promise or vow.

  216. Johannes Climacus says:

    I love how all these people who dismiss Jeremy Corbyn as hitherto unknown then presume to know a great deal about him.

    Though not a Labour Party member, I have campaigned on various issues in which Jeremy Corbyn was also involved for about twenty years. I have heard him speak many times and his principles have not changed unlike those whose principles are for sale.

    I don’t know how anybody who claims to be politically informed can not know of Jeremy Corbyn and it speaks volumes that so many are, with no sense of irony, now parroting the client media of the Tory party who, not so long ago, were demonising the SNP.

  217. liz says:

    Well according to Jeremy Paxman this was the political journalists view of old/new SLAB;

    A procession of clapped-out trade union officials and former council leaders — “low-flying jimmies”, as they were known in parliament — were regularly dispatched to Westminster, where they seemed to spend lives of harmless inactivity drinking subsidised alcohol in House of Commons bars until instructed to wobble out to vote in parliament as the party whips instructed.

  218. Tackety Beets says:

    Kevin Evans @ 2.49

    Yes I get it and would love to agree.

    Downside Scotland would be totally trashed if too high a % of the 55% Nos voted for anyone but SNP.

    Can you imagine a LibLabCon setup in Hollyrood .

    Hee hee , maybe the BT lot would be so cockey they would vote SNP too.

  219. pitchfork says:

    @will podmore

    “But Vladimir you had your revoluion in february and it’s only october. It’s a once in a generation event.”

  220. Grouse Beater says:

    Climacus: I don’t know how anybody who claims to be politically informed can not know of Jeremy Corbyn

    No matter what anybody thinks of him, he’s still an Englishman out of his depth in Scotland.

  221. Johannes Climacus says:

    @Grouse Beater

    Actually, you just alluded to another myth, that is being propagated, that he is a unionist.

    Jeremy Corbyn kept out of the independence referendum campaign, he didn’t visit Scotland nor stand on any platform. He has repeatedly said that independence is a matter for the people of Scotland. I would have thought that that is a position you might respect.

  222. Kevin Evans says:

    Yup I get the response to my post @2:23ish. But stick a full commitment to a refurendum in the manifesto. It’s what the SNP STAND FOR. Just say it straight to null the “when will there be another refurendum” crap willie Rennie and Kezia is gonna spurt during the farcical debates where gonna be put through.

    SNP should just come out with it. Say.”we’re sick and tired of being ruled by Westminster. There choice effect Scotland in an adverse way, there vow was rubbish and a con”

    Vote SNP in this 2016 parliament means another referendum as soon as possible.

    If the nation wants one that’s what we’lol vote for. If it doesn’t there will be a lab/lib/Tory (better together) pact. Let them have it. Let them deal with it. It’ll speed us towards independence far sooner.

    Promising a referendum in the 2016 manifesto will be the best poll we could ask for. SNP can avoid the SNP are scared of devo max. The 56 and now part of Westminster establishment how can ta say you don’t want to be part of Westminster when you are playing a part. Kezia screaming like Jim did. When will there be another refurendum.

    SNP shoukd say “we are a party of Scottish independence and we’re going back to our core roots and this election is about independence” it will totally null any argument.

  223. Grouse Beater says:

    Climacus: Actually, you just alluded to another myth, that is being propagated, that he is a unionist.

    A scruffy beard and sandals does not denote the coming of the Messiah.

  224. yesindyref2 says:

    @Johannes Climacus
    Corbyn: “That’s why what we were doing in Scotland last week – and will be doing again – is something that does offer an alternative and is therefore attractive to working class Scots to stay within the UK in order to achieve those things.”

    From the Herald in an article ironically titled “Corbyn: I’m a Socialist not a Unionist”.

  225. Johannes Climacus says:

    @yesindyref2

    And yet you quote from an article which is titled:

    Corbyn: I’m a Socialist not a Unionist

    And you omit the line after the one you quote:

    The left-winger revealed that he had never once ventured to Scotland to campaign during last year’s referendum because he was “doing stuff” in London and believed it was a decision for the Scottish people to make not him.

  226. Grouse Beater says:

    yesindiref2: Corbyn: “That’s why what we were doing in Scotland last week – and will be doing again – is something that does offer an alternative and is therefore attractive to working class Scots to stay within the UK in order to achieve those things.”

    Many thanks, Yesidi. You can tell I am not impressed by acolytes willing to rewrite the sayings of Corbyn at this stage of his political ascendency.

  227. yesindyref2 says:

    @Johannes Climacus
    Here, I’ll highlight the important bit though (thanks) grousebeater already did:

    attractive to working class Scots to stay within the UK

    Whatever Corbyn’s merits or demerits are, he is a Unionist, as proven by those words of his. I’ll explain. He wants working class Scots to stay within the UK.

    Or to put it another way within the UK

    I guess you could just summarise the whole thing as: UK

    There now.

  228. galamcennalath says:

    “Corbyn: I’m a Socialist not a Unionist”

    The two aren’t opposites. The unionist ranks are full of left wing people.

    The assumption cannot be made that all socialists are internationalists, again these are not synonymous as is often claimed. A Western European workers’ republic hasn’t been talked about much since John Maclean’s day.

    Many socialists would also jump up and down in rebellion at the idea the UK should fully merge with France and Germany! Therefore most socialists in the UK are also nationalists.

    So where does Corbyn actually stand? That will become clear within a fairly short time!

    My guess – probably socialist, unionist and British nationalist.

  229. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m getting so absent-minded, silly me. I meant to say:

    Corbyn: “stay within the UK”

  230. yesindyref2 says:

    @
    Yes, give him a chance, I have no general opinion. But if he was a socialist not a unionist, he would have said ““That’s why what we were doing in Scotland last week – and will be doing again – is something that does offer an alternative and is therefore attractive to working class Scots.” (full stop). Not adding “to stay within the UK”.

  231. Grouse Beater says:

    I suppose, Yesindi, it all depends on which of his principles takes precedence.

    My past observations of him is of a solid old-fashioned democratic socialist – no harm in being old-fashioned, Lech Walesa was very old-fashioned – but we’ve yet to see if he feels Britain is best or vive la difference is superior.

    He did stay out of the independence debate, unlike all the others who said as he said, but didn’t do as he did.

    A member of Westminster’s Scottish Committee he lost patience with the Labour bully boys determined to slant opinion against the SNP. A gold star in his favour. And I admired his refusal to sing ‘God Save Her’. His duties call him to kneel before her, that will be a telling moment. Maybe he can use the excuse of age, he can kneel but is not sure of getting up again.

    That said, he has to prove to us he feels Scotland will be a better and stronger neighbour in charge of its own affairs, or merely happier with more powers, but still subservient to London decisions.

    So far he’s the archetypical Englishman, long shorts, white legs, sandals, missing a knotted hanky on his head.

  232. Tinto Chiel says:

    Just so, galamcennalath. No internationalist Socialist in England ever suggested any pan-national English-French-German republic, for example. But we have to wait, it seems, to show solidarity with a Scouse bus driver or Geordie miner (are there mines there anymore?) which would be never reciprocated. We are always the mere halt on the branch-line to nowhere, not even a station.

    Johannes Climacus, you seem to be a new poster, so welcome. I suspect Jeremy didn’t come north because he doesn’t find Scotland important enough. However, if it’s our decision and he respects that, that’s great. So, would he support a move towards Indyref2, if the Scottish people wish it, those predominately “working class Scots” who no longer wish to stay in the UK? Believe me, that’s where a lot of our support lies, because they feel betrayed by the Labour Party.

    Final thought, JC: you’re not the man himself, are you?

  233. Tam Jardine says:

    Will Podmore

    Hello Will.

    Imagine, if you will, cutting some shapes in a nightclub. A beautiful woman/man sidles up, perhaps the most fabulous specimen you have ever clapped eyes on and the evening begins to take on a whole new dimension. You may be experiencing a ‘once in a lifetime opportunity’. Indeed, you are told so by your mates.

    And if I can take this flight of fancy one stage further, Will, imagine if your nerves got the better of you, or your chat was not quite smooth or funny enough, or someone else stood screaming in your ear that you were pathetic and out of your depth… the opportunity passes and you go home alone to lick your wounds.

    A year from that night, you’re back in the club, the music’s pumpin, you’re feeling more confident in yourself, and would you Adam and Eve it? That same boy or girl sidles up.

    But godammit Will, you’ve only gone and had your once in a lifetime chance, your once in a generation opportunity and you blew it so the games a bogey??

    Sorry for the analogy Will but I have heard the once in a generation stuff ad nauseum and even if Nicola Stugeon had given a cast iron guarantee that there would not be another refendum for a generation (which she has never done) it would not be in her power to give such a guarantee.

    I did take your point seriously enough to check the supreme arbiter, the UN on this. I found a wonderful passage you may enjoy in a resolution entitled “The principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples”:

    “By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, WITHOUT EXTERNAL INTERFERENCE, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.

    Every State has the duty to promote, through joint and separate action, realization of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, in accordance with the provisions of the Charter, and to render assistance to the United Nations in carrying out the responsibilities entrusted to it by the Charter regarding the implementation of the principle, in order:

    a.To promote friendly relations and co-operation among States; and

    b.To bring a speedy end to colonialism, having due regard to the freely expressed will of the peoples concerned;

    and bearing in mind that subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a violation of the principle, as well as a denial of fundamental human rights, and is contrary to the Charter.

    Every State has the duty to promote through joint and separate action universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms in accordance with the Charter.

    The establishment of a sovereign and independent State, the free association or integration with an independent State or the emergence into any other political status freely determined by a people constitute modes of implementing the right of self-determination by that people.

    Every State has the duty to refrain from any forcible action which deprives peoples referred to above in the elaboration of the present principle of their right to self-determination and freedom and independence. In their actions against, and resistance to, such forcible action in pursuit of the exercise of their right to self-determination, such peoples are entitled to seek and to receive support in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter.”

    My question for you, Will is this. Can you honestly, hand on heart tell me that what happened last year could be described as the people of Scotland freely determining without external interference their political status in accordance with the UN charter?

    I am still struggling to uncover the clause in the UN Charter whereby an elected official can interfere in any shape or form with said ” Principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples” but I’m a little slow at times so maybe you could locate that clause for me?

  234. yesindyref2 says:

    @Grouse Beater
    Goof for him (the Scottish Committee – Scottish Affairs Committee under Iain Davidson?).

    I know nothing about him, stayed out of the Lab leadership thing kind of none of my business. Like the lefy idea amd to be honest the 70s were a great time, the world was my oyster, but so it was for other common working foke in those days if they tried and had luck.

    I read wiki and it’s interesting, I agree with him about NATO and Ukraine, though I’d add the EU being to blame as well.

    So I guess the jury is out about him being a Unionist.

  235. msean says:

    We could show solidarity with the English workers,but large numbers of them keep voting in Tory.

  236. Effijy says:

    Will Podmore says:
    17 September, 2015 at 3:37 pm
    Effijy wrote “Nicola never said it was a once in a generation referendum!”
    On October 15, 2013 on BBC’s Daily Politics, Ms Sturgeon said the referendum was a “once in a generation event, possibly once in a lifetime for Scotland”.

    Can you go on to qualify the rest of my post on why so many seriously corrupt and costly Westminster Liars are much nicer people than Nicola Surgeon????

  237. Tinto Chiel says:

    msean: ouch!

    So true.

  238. msean says:

    Johannes Climacus says: …with no sense of irony, now parroting the client media of the Tory party who, not so long ago, were demonising the SNP.

    I don’t know where you were during the indyref campaign,but Labour were an integral part of that client media of the Tory party,so much a part that they joined them in better together. Last I heard,Mr Corbyn has been a Labour MP since 1983.

  239. msean says:

    If a commitment to indyref 2 is in the SNP manifesto and they are returned to government as the largest party,then indyref 2 is the will of the people. The result and subsequent indyref should be respected 🙂

  240. Tinto Chiel says:

    Where’s Johannes Climacus gone?

    Was it something we said?

  241. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Some comments on here about Jeremy Corbyn “kissing hands” or kneeling before the Queen when he joins the Privy Council.

    Load of shite. Newly-appointed PCs no longer have to actually kiss the Queen’s hands, or kneel before her. As far as I am aware, kneeling only happens when a recipient is being knighted.

    But, I can still see the usual suspects – the Heil and the Torygraph indulging in mischief-making around Corbyn’s appointment. Perhaps suggesting, he didn’t actually kiss hands or kneel; certain the public will not know any better.

    As I have said previously – if they are gunning for Corbyn, they are leaving the SNP alone, so, let’s enjoy the show.

  242. Al-Stuart says:

    Hi Chic,

    I think you are right, there are enough “marginal” ex-Labour electors currently lending their vote to the SNP to be persuaded by MSM to return to make a small but important difference.

    On an individual level it may only be half a dozen friends I can enlighten to stay voting SNP, but if we all do this, then that should help in 2016 at Holyrood and IndRef2.

    Cheers, Al

    —————————–
    Chic McGregor says: 17 September, 2015 at 12:03 pm

    Its not you I’m worried about Al, or the many other politically aware converts but it is those that are not so enlightened I am worried about.

    Those who only take a passing interest in politics at best or even are politically averse.

    The people who still vote because it is their right/duty but who do not take the trouble to educate themselves properly or have not chanced on the opportunity to do so because of unionist media manipulation.

    They are generally sound bite driven or rely on Anti Beeb.

    Sadly, I believe even after the period of political enlightenment Scotland has experienced, that group is still a very significant portion of the electorate at large, perhaps even a majority, although one would hope a minority of converts. But still likely to be a significant minority IMO. Enough to make a big electoral difference.

    There is too an electorially less significant group on the left who while politically aware, may be sufficiently troubled by ‘working class solidarity across borders’ ideology to be enticed back into the neo old Labour fold even if they do believe Scots should have normal levels of self government as well.

    Of course, I do hope I am wrong about all this.

  243. Grouse Beater says:

    Newly-appointed PCs no longer have to actually kiss the Queen’s hands, or kneel before her.

    Whatever, but you if she finishes her meal before you, you finish there and then. And you cannot leave the room until she has left, and if expected to leave first you must walk backwards. I should know – been there, refused to do that.

  244. Chic McGregor says:

    @Al-Stuart
    “I think you are right, there are enough “marginal” ex-Labour electors currently lending their vote to the SNP to be persuaded by MSM to return to make a small but important difference.

    On an individual level it may only be half a dozen friends I can enlighten to stay voting SNP, but if we all do this, then that should help in 2016 at Holyrood and IndRef2.”

    Yes. We must all do that.

  245. NN says:

    I’ll believe the hype when I see results and some long term reports. We’ve seen far too many “YES WE CAN” style promises of change and seen the same old reheats served up again. It’s potentially an easy ploy to keep the masses quiet and distracted, at least for another few election cycles.

  246. Grouse Beater says:

    “One Year On”

    http://wp.me/p4fd9j-21i

  247. Fred says:

    Grouse Beater, I trust you never farted in front of the Queen, protocol insists that she farts first! 🙂

  248. Will Podmore says:

    Effijy claimed that “Nicola never said it was a once in a generation referendum!”
    I pointed out that in fact on 15 October 2013 on BBC’s Daily Politics, Ms Sturgeon said the referendum was a “once in a generation event, possibly once in a lifetime for Scotland”.
    To Anagach, I did not claim that this was a promise or a vow.
    I did not refer to the rest of Effijy’s post about the ‘seriously corrupt and costly Westminster Liars’: we are all agreed that Westminster is rubbish.
    Tam, the lengthy extract from the UN Charter is not relevant. You assume the existence of a Scottish nation; I don’t.
    The British working class, all of us, Scottish, English, and Welsh, created the British nation. It was not the Act of Union that created us.
    And Lenin never claimed that February 1917 was a once in a lifetime event!



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