Before the oil, the deluge
Posted on
April 03, 2014 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Sent in by an alert reader from a 1971 book called “Scotland’s Scrap Of Paper”.
Same as it ever was, eh readers?
These are the original documents from HM Stationery Office verifying the figures:
This bit had a rather familiar ring to it, too:
Anyone else struggling to read the 2nd attachment?
‘Scuse me while I pick my teeth up off the floor.
Un-frickin’ believable! Scotland is and always has been nothing more than a cash cow for London to milk. For the love of all things holy WE MUST VOTE YES!
*sorry, didn’t mean to shout but FFS!
What has been done to our country is so, so sad. It’s heartbreaking to think of the poverty, lost opportunities, premature deaths and lives broken by the asset stripping of our country and our people by the Westminster elite.
Those individuals in receipt of knowledge such as this who continue to advocate that we are ‘Better Together’ should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.
My sadness is not aimed at the oil money being lost per se, but more so at the fellow Scots i thought i knew who are prepared (or conditioned enough) to self loathe themselves sufficiently for the sake of waving a wee flag; which in it self symbolizes imperialism and aggression around the globe.tragic
Someone should stick that on Ian Murray.
Very interesting. Does this type of voting on exclusively Scottish matters in Westminster, by all UK MPs, still occur? If so, it maketh the West Lothian question look petty and pedantic by comparison..
Craig Stewart – click on the image then Ctrl & + to enlarge.
Great intro for the wee tartan book?
This is the type of material that YES Scotland should be putting in their quarterly newspaper.
It would certainly open the eyes of many.
I wonder how many of our newspapers and TV programmes will share this bombshell with the Scottish public – (tries hard to come up with a whole number between 0 and – er – 0)
We will never discover the true wealth of Scotland until we become an independent country, and then it will amaze us, and everybody else. Then, and only them, will it turn to anger, when he finally realise how we have been duped by Westminster over many years. The people I blame most in this are the so-called “Proud Scots”, who have quite wilfully taken part in this deception, perpetrated upon their ain folk. When I suggested on another website what should happen to these people after a successful Yes vote, I was taken to task for suggesting a rather drastic fate, so I will confine myself to say that as far as I am concerned they, the guilty ones, should not be forgotten in future years, as I am sure they will not depart the political scene willingly, mainly because they are useless, since most don’t know what it’s like to actually work for a living. We have been taken for mugs for long enough, so vote Yes on the 18th, September, and free your country from the yoke of Westminster oppression.
Oh aye remember that Scotland used to produce a quarter of the planets shipping tonnage, not to mention all the other heavy industries producing motors, locomotives, coal steel etc.
My wee toon , Johnstone had numerous engineering businesses, one of which produced for export, the world’s biggest lathe at the time.
The point I am getting at is, has there ever been a time when we haven’t contributed more than we get back!
Never mind the oil, we’ve been ripped off big time for yonks!
Makes you wonder why Tam Dalyell was more concerned about Scots voting on purely English matters after devolution
There it is, right there, the whole BT ethos summed up in two words – the name of Danny Alexander, Ruth Davidson, Willie Rennie and Johann Lamont’s employer:
‘Imperial Services’
From now on I won’t see any of these people without imagining them in a faded grey boiler suit with the initials ‘I.S.’
‘Same as it ever was’..surely not TWICE in a Lifeime?
Too wee? Nope. Too poor? Nope. Too stupid? Well, when you look at what we’ve allowed to be done to us for generations now … I do have to wonder sometimes! If we vote Yes in September then we have finally proven we aren’t too stupid after all. If we vote No … Then maybe we are.
The lies and deceit were noted – with written evidence – in a book published in 1705:
An Historical Essay Showing the Crown and Kingdom of Scotland is Imperial and Independent.” by James Anderson, Writer to Her Majesty’s Signet.
It lists and rebutts the gross errors deliberate and unwitting of other attacks on Scotland’s sovereignty and includes Writs and Seals to prove the author’s case.
I cherish my copy.
These figures should offset some of these awful expenses Oxford Economics have compiled for the head honchos of The Weir Group
Can we make this into stickers and distribute freely perhaps?
Same old Same old… as the song goes “…it’s just a little bit of history repeating…” maybe time to change the record? Let’s do that with a YES 😀
Kind of ties in nicely with not just John Jappy’s pre oil observations, but also what Business for Scotland has been saying regarding how Scotland ‘must’ have been heavily subsidising the Union for years, given the share of global shipbuilding etc that we had…
Wait a minute, I thought we always had the same political views until recently?
Does that mean that the much talked about (by certain Scottish Labour activists) need to persuade the South to change its political outlook has been going on for the best part of a 100 years?
So Scotland subsidised England long before N.Sea oil. I wonder when the 93 year old finance records in the article will find their way into BBC reporting? Early days.
Hell’s teeth, shades of that 1952 report that said much the same thing.
Better Together
We have always argued that the proposal by the nationalists to pay into an oil fund made little sense when Scotland was already running a net fiscal deficit. Common sense tell us that you shouldn’t borrow money and save it at the same time. It would be the equivalent of taking out a loan to put the money into your savings account.
Also worth noting the detail within the paper, “Issues surrounding the sharing of UK debt post independence” by Jim and Margaret Cuthbert which can be accessed on the Jimmy Reid foundation website. They show that, if Scotland had been independent between 1982 and 2012, with its geographic share of all resources, Scottish public finances would have been in credit for 27 of those 30 years (up to 2009). The public finances of the rest of the UK would have been in deficit for 25 of those 30 years. As ever, examine the facts rather than project fear propaganda.
It”s not only the appropriation of Scotlands wealth and assets by our big bully of a neighbour that rankles.There has been a continuous Anglicising of our institutions and indoctrination by the British state of our young people,very often by educationalists who claim to be “proud Scots”.
Some things never change.
Broad shoulders my erse.
…and these bastards want us to take ‘a fair share’ of the national debt?
I have done a rough calculation in the light of this new evidence, and the answer I arrived at was, ‘fuck ’em, and their debt’.
So it’s not just the last 30 odd years that they’ve been pulling the wool over our eyes regarding our contributions. Quite infuriating !
First ever comment on any forum.
I am reduced to tears on reading this and feeling so angry.
My contempt for westminster cannot get any lower but my respect for Rev Stu grows ever stronger daily.
There has long been an unspoken assumption (sometimes not so unspoken) that prior to oil in the 1970s Scotland was somehow an economic basket case that required support from England. This is just so much nonsense.
Throughout the 19th and 20th centuries Scotland was a heavy industry powerhouse within the UK and the world. Ships, locomotives, steam boilers, steel, coal not to mention being at the forefront of education and science meant that Scotland very much pulled it weight in the Union. It should also be remembered that prior to the 1945 Welfare Reforms Government spending was primarily about Social Order, Defence and Empire.
The beginning of economic decline in the 1960s culminating in the mass unemployment of the 1980s was a recent event. Scotland more than paid its way in this 300 year Union, in blood, sweat and tears.
So we could have saved our heavy industries with investment 90 years ago. We could have built and reinvested over and over. When the oil came it could have gone straight into a fund even earlier than Norway achieved.
They managed to pillage Scotland and deny it’s children their rightful future. They now try to tell us that we need their deep pockets to struggle on.
I’m mad enough to sticker somebody.
Anyone one who reads that and votes no should be ashamed of themselves. Either that or get sectioned under the mental health act for Stockholm Syndrome. We are all crazy in this country if we think that our reason for existence is to save England from itself and the recipient isn’t even grateful. How hard they fight to keep Scotland…that in itself should give the game away!
Does anybody know where these figures originally came from? Presumably they must be published somewhere and can be found today, possibly in old copies of Hansard? It would be good to track them down and look at the figures for the preceding years.
I’ve been saying for ages that you can’t build a full one HALF of the world’s shipping output on a single river in your country, and a full one QUARTER of the world’s locomotive output in the same city without massively subsidising the economy you’re in, which was, of course the UK, long before oil.
The idea seems to be that Scotland has only been in surplus since oil was discovered but it’s clear that we have punched above our weight for hundreds of years.
In the “Mind the Gap” series on the BBC, we had those maps of the UK with the graphics rising up from ground level to show the percentages of the economy that the south east and the north of England produced during a period in the industrial revolution (and then comparing it with today).
Immediately I noticed that it only totalled around 50%. In the graphic, Scotland never registered at all, so we were made to look like we contributed 0%. I believe we contributed well above our population share back then, probably to an embarrassing degree and that this was deliberately left out.
This is an excellent find and I will be spreading it far and wide.
Not broad shoulders,brass neck
Interesting figures for 1920-21, I can only presume they discontinued producing figures for Scotland was due to the setting up of the Irish Free State and not give any information that would fuel Scottish Home Rule.
– interesting things you find on the internet – an internal memo from Sky. http://twitpic.com/e055zr
Seems to me that Scotland has paid its share of the dept many times over.
I wonder why they have kept hold of us for all these years?
It wouldn’t be so bad if they had used some of that wealth to improve the lives of ordinary Scots. It’s the fact they deliberately ruined Scotlands economy, and lied about our wealth, that is the biggest insult. ‘They’ being some of our fellow Scots.
This article reminds me that it is time to “Frontline” my dog.
For those without a cat or dog “Frontline” is according to the packaging. “For the treatment and prevention of Flea and Tick infestations and the control of Biting Lice”
I only wish that we could get rid of this bunch of effing parasites so easily.
Before leaving the Ian Murray sticker incident, it is worth while having a look at this article on Newsnet Scotland.
It contrasts the sticker (see photo) with a real incident at Nicola Sturgeon’s office, no big fuss was made.
newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8987-labour-mp-admits-vandalism-was-in-fact-stickers
Here’s an interesting parliamentary answer to a question by SNP Robert McIntyre in 1945:
Scotland (Revenue and Expenditure)
HC Deb 05 June 1945 vol 411 c702W 702W
§Mr. McIntyre asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give full accounts of the revenue and expenditure in respect of Scotland since 1921.
§Sir J. Anderson No, Sir. Such an account would require the expenditure of an amount of time and labour on research into past history as would not, in my opinion, be justified.
O/T. I see Benedict Brogan in today,s Telegraph is saying that the Better Togather “campaign” is going to “go quiet” until June ?, then we are to be lovebombed/threatened by Cameron and Brown. Can’t wait.
This just makes me really angry. The problem is that most Scots don’t know any of this.
I reckon I am a reasonably well educated person, but I didn’t know any of this stuff until visiting Wings over the last year or so.
We are NOT too stupid, we have been lied to. How can we expect to know the truth when we are never told any of it? If Scotland votes No, I will not be annoyed with my fellow Scots, but I will never forgive the people who deceived us.
Eventually the truth will out because the people who know the truth will not give up. It’s only a matter of time before the nation wakes up. If September 18 comes too soon I dread to think what will happen afterwards.
So, Westminster (Labour and Tory) lied to Scots about the oil wealth in the 1970’s, 80’s and 90’s, but they also knew full well, that most of the money coming from Scotland and Scottish taxpayers prior to the oil was getting spent in England. True colonial control of Scotland was what the 1707 treaty was about, those in London cynically call it the most successful ‘union’ in the world.
What an utter disgrace Westminster is and always has been, towards Scotland. They dump their nuclear waste here, they base their nuclear missiles here, the knowingly give less money back to Scots than what Scots pay in taxes, all the while via their subservient English owned media telling us that Scots are ‘subsidy junkies’.
What all of this shows, is that the desire to end this undemocratic and unwanted union with England is NOT something new, but has been simmering for a very long time indeed. Our ancestors knew it was bad for Scotland, and now we here in 2014 finally have a chance to end it, for all of them.
We must get a YES vote in September, to be rid of these Westminster leeches once and for all, to ensure Scotland can prosper.
p.s Any chance of getting a proper scanned copy of the first source document, as its a bugger to read.
@bookie from hell
re borrowing to invest…I recall that being touted as a positive use of taking out a Student Loan back in the days they were launched.
Also on borrowing to invest..strange how if you change the name to Gearing and move the practise of it to The City of London that same strategy is very much encouraged!
I am sure that I read somewhere that expenditure in Scotland was around 2% of GDP in the 50s & 60s and that prompted the Church of Scotland to write to the government of the day to complain. Damned if I can find that.
It’s things like this that make me want to simply walk away from the union.
F**k paying any share of the debt. They’ve had more than enough from us.
When at P.M.Qs yesterday, Cameron referred to the “two muppets” who ruined the economy, surely he couldn’t have been meaning his staunchest allies in the No campaign, Brown and Darling. That would’t do at all.
“Broad shoulders my erse.”
Well, there are certainly broad shoulders in the UK, but I think we know whose they are now.
Ian Brotherhood,
I wholly agree with you regarding the debt. It is London who should be paying Scotland, not the other way around. The shameless lying charlatans of Westminster have bled Scotland dry for centuries. No wonder the London Tory Prime Minister said he ‘will do whatever it takes’ to keep Scotland in London’s grasp.
This September, we will say NO MORE!
Voting for the SNP has been easy for me all these years. However I cannot but feel a deep white hot burning fire in my belly when I read the above post. It confirms to all even the most ardent unionist surely, that what we have been sold is a pup, a pig in a poke, the most massive confidence trick has been played on Scotland these past 306 years. Our country, our children our old and sick have been deprived of the life they should have had in this rich and talented country. If on September the 18th we vote for continued union with these charlatans and crooks we really do deserve all the shit that will descend on us.
It has to be said that a great deal of credit must go to Stu Campbell, who can call himself an Admiral if he likes, as far as this Cybernat is concerned. This web site I believe and sincerely pray has been a game changer. At last the lies are being exposed in a way that has not been possible before. Those that did were either silenced or assassinated like Wille Macrae, and a few others. More power to your keyboards.
Can this book not be serialised on here like The Claim of Rights was. Then we can sprerad it widely and print it out if we are allowed to. Thanks again.
Andrew Morton
I was just away to post that. Pity Dr Mac lost his seat at the 1945 General Election as he could have fished out a lot of information. Copies of old Hansards will be held at the National Library of Scotland.
In 1707, Scotland was far from being the basket case that “Anglo centric” historians claim we were.
Scotland was relatively more prosperous than England and their was to be a transfer from England to Scotland to compensate for that. It never happened and I believe that Walter Scott somewhere in his writings covered that.
So it seems that we have been used from the very start as a colonial gold mine for the Imperial aspirations and delusions of Westminster.
Fuck it, no debt and no nukes; end of.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26864329 another day another attack on Scottish independence. Whatever history records about the BBC, they’ve certainly done everything humanly possible to stop Scotland existing even as a new PR democracy in the world.
Remember this was in 1919/20, about when Churchill sent in tanks to George Square in Glasgow to ensure a the fallout of rent strike would not get out of hand.
A home fit for heroes.
@scaredy cat
‘This just makes me really angry. The problem is that most Scots don’t know any of this.’
True.
‘We are NOT too stupid, we have been lied to. How can we expect to know the truth when we are never told any of it?’
I’m afraid thus far we have been too stupid, because collectively we’ve failed to challenge establishment orthodoxies strongly enough. Only when people make an active decision to educate themselves, rather than be ‘educated’ by others, will we achieve our goal. I’m happy to say it is happening, but a (only slightly whimsical) note of caution. I’ve now come across two people since Tuesday who’ve swallowed the Guardian’s April Fool about driving on the right whole, and are now reconsidering voting for indy. What does that say about their ability to filter information?
That we are duped by authorities should be our default position, not surprise when we discover the truth.
I am incandescent and can’t sit down. Pacing around and shouting obscenities.
This is the system that the bastards of Labour, Libdem and Tory, wish to bed right into to their devo-sfa proposals and then neuter Holyrood.
Time to take off the gloves.
No deals.
OT
Tory, Maria Miller found not guilty of fiddling expenses, but told to pay them back and apologise!
Go figure.
@HenBroon
I absolutely agree with you! I have been voting SNP for nearly 50 yrs! I have been a signed up member for 40 yrs and I knew some of the bad things going on like Willie Macrae,s death etc, but not till I visited this site at the end of last year did I realise that things were a lot worse than I thought!
Rev has been doing some sterling work for Scotland and should go down in the annals of history, no matter what the outcome!
Heedtracker
I see that the BBC seem to have a store of ‘could’ and not ‘will’ to be used in their reports.
is this not the reason the unionist partys are crapping themselfs, Scotland WHAT FEKKING DEBT, SHOW US THE MONIES.
“Fuck it, no debt and no nukes; end of.”
Well, since they’re either going to not be there on independance day, or they’ll be Scotland’s Nukes, I don’t think the nukes are actually a complicated issue at all.
Especially if Scotland doesn’t get to inherit any of the UK’s treaties, because that would mean we are not a signitory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, so our getting some “new” nukes wouldn’t be an issue. (Of course, we’d promptly sign up, then dispose of them. Which would probably make us the fastest signitory to go nuke-free)
You know, I’m thinking it would be kinda cool if the first thing Scotland did with respect to UK debts was say: “Yeah, we’ll write off what Westminster owes us, because we’re nice like that, and they’re in enough trouble over debts.”
Throws the whole debate on its head when you start to think like that. Then you realise that Scotland holds all the cards.
It’s time to give up. Even the Commies are against us.
http://yclbritain.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/communist-party-scotland-statement-on-scottish-independence/
In negotiations concede nothing, forget a Currency Union where are tied to a toxic Sterling. Use the currency board option of a Scottish currency board. Pay none of their debt, we can buy the assets we need as we proceed with NO debt.
Tell them to remove Trident immediately.
Do not allow threats over the EU, given a hint of trouble on that front we join EFTA, and trade with the EU from that medium.
Banish Spanish fishing fleet from our waters. Issue fishing licenses to counties who are friendly with us, but not to those that are hostile.
Form a REAL Bank of Scotland, complete with stringent rules and total accountability for their actions.
Make our environment as business friendly as possible.
Take forward plans for the re industrial of Scotland.
That is a path to start us get moving. Disregard anything that is said by Westminster and their “Proud Scots” allies.
For once we do only what WE want to, we help our people respect themselves and be proud of our country.
Stuff the Union, they have cruelly mis represented us for a very long time for their gain and our loss.
Really, let us bin this destructive “Union” once and for all. We can no longer afford them.
This is long, but relevant, I wrote it as part of a series on the Treaty of Union : –
Scots are taught absolute balderdash as history in our schools and colleges. The true history is quite obvious when we consider the actual facts. Very few Scots know author Daniel Defoe was a paid Kingdom of England spy operating in The Kingdom of Scotland. Defoe was provided with English funding before the Treaty of Union to report back to England and also to bribe Scottish Parliamentary MPs. Yet Defoe’s own fictitious propaganda about, “The Treaty of Union”, has been used by our Scottish, so called, “historians”, in our schools and universities ever since. No official, “History” of Scotland”, is now complete without these academics usual erroneous opening statement that the Kingdom of Scotland was a, “Voluntary member of the Union”, and an “Equally Sovereign Partner”, in the Great Britain Empire.
Let us, though, consider real facts. Daniel Defoe was, (probably), London born in 1660. A Presbyterian of quite modest means. Defoe is credited with around 540 odd authored titles including satirical poems, religious and political pamphlets and several volumes of fiction. Including, “Robinson Crusoe”. However, his over ambitious business ventures saw him bankrupted by 1692. So having a wife and seven children to support, and bankrupted, he was in grave financial difficulties.
Then, after he published a political attack on the top English Tories in 1703, he was prosecuted for seditious libel. He was in real big trouble. Defoe was sentenced to be pilloried, fined 200 marks, and detained at, “The English Queen’s pleasure”. In deep despair Defoe wrote to one, a William Paterson, a London Scot, founder of the Bank of England and the prime mover in the abortive and disastrous, “Darien Expedition”.
The same William Patterson, suspiciously overly involved with the English Establishment, was in cahoots with one, Robert Harley, a leading Minister and the Spy-master in the English Government. Harley accepted Defoe’s offer of services and had him released from custody in 1703. Defoe then began publishing, “The Review”, first as a weekly, then as a three times a week political propaganda paper. This, “Review”, was written mostly by Defoe himself and it was the main English Government propaganda machine that promoted, “The Union”, with Scotland and an obvious forerunner of the English Parliament’s present BBC Propaganda machine well before the age of radio/TV broadcasting.
Thus The Kingdom of Scotland was forced into, “The Union”, by threats of economic sanctions and military threats of invasion by a large English army on the Border in 1704, and by an English fleet lying off Berwick. The Scottish Parliament was thus presented with a demand to accept a draft treaty insisting on incorporation which was designed to appeal to the exclusive self-interests of the rich land-owners who also composed the members of the Scottish Parliament and who had been bankrupted by Paterson’s Darien Expedition. A Union based upon military might, bribery and propaganda.
Rather, in fact much as it is today. Believe it or not, Queen Anne actually described the proposed Union as her “Design Against Scotland”. Rather like the present, “Secretary of State AGAINST Scotland”, Alistair Carmichael.
Defoe began his campaign in, “The Review”, and in other pamphlets, with articles directed at the English opinion. He rightly claimed it would end, “The threat from the North”, that it would gain for the English Treasury an, “inexhaustible treasury of men”, and a new market to increase the power of England. Then, in September of 1706, Robert Harley dispatched Defoe to Edinburgh as a secret agent, ordering him to do everything he could to secure acceptance of the Treaty. Defoe, ever conscious of the personal risk to himself, showed by extracts from his letters, (as edited by G.H. Healey, Oxford 1955), assures that a great deal more facts about Defoe’s activities are known than is usual with the secret agents.
Defoe first reported quite lurid descriptions of violent Scottish demonstrations against the Union. He reported, “A Scots rabble is the worst of its kind”. In later years John Clerk of Penicuik, (then a leading Unionist), wrote in his memoirs, claiming Defoe as, “He was a spy among us, but not known as such, otherwise the Mob of Edinburgh would pull him to pieces”. Ironically as Defoe was a Presbyterian, (and had suffered much in England by his convictions), he was accepted as an adviser to, “The Assembly of the Church and Parliamentary Committees”.
Defoe reported to Robert Harley he, (Defoe), was, “privy to all their folly”, but, “Perfectly unsuspected as with corresponding with anybody in England”. Defoe also claimed he was thus able to influence the proposals put to the Scottish Parliament and report back, “Having had the honour to be always sent for the committee to whom these amendments were referr’d, I have had the good fortune to break their measures in two particulars via the bounty on Corn and proportion of the Excise”.
For Scotland, though, Defoe used different propaganda arguments and quite opposite to those used by his propaganda in England. Usually Defoe ignored the English doctrine of the Sovereignty of Parliament and told the gullible Scots they could have utter confidence in the guarantees given by the Treaty. Defoe, (claiming that some of his pamphlets were actually authored by Scots), has misled, so called, “historians”, to quoting these pamphlets as evidence of Scottish opinion of those times.
Much the same applies to the lengthy, “History of the Union”, that Defoe published in 1709. This has been oft quoted by, “Establishment”, historians as a contemporary source for their own, “Establishment”, pro-Union propaganda. Defoe, much like, “Establishment”, Academics of today always gave his, “History”, a slant of objectivity by giving some argument against the Union, but always assuring to have the last, pro-union, word.
Defoe disposed of Scottish anti-Unionists, (such as Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun), by simply ignoring their very existence. Much like Better Together still do today. Neither does Defoe report the treachery of such as, “The Duke of Hamilton”, who was the official leader of, “The Squadrone Volante”, who were against the Union. Finally, the Duke betrayed both his country and his comrades in the last stages of the Union debate.
The Duke of Hamilton was due to lead an Anti-Union Rebellion in 1708 when Covenanters were marching from, the then Gaelic speaking Galloway, to unite with Jacobites at Edinburgh but were betrayed at Dumfries. A Highland Army, camped outside Edinburgh, were given the keys to the town by the town guard to let them in. However, The Duke of Hamilton didn’t turn up, claiming he had a toothache, and the French frigates in the Firth of Forth then turned back for France.
Defoe never explained why the Scottish Parliament, so much for Scotland’s independence from 1703 until 1705 suddenly became pro-union by 1706. He, Defoe, had little reward from Harley and, being a secret agent, got no recognition for, “services rendered”, from the Kingdom of England Government. Later, in his published work in 1726, titled “Tour thro’ the whole Island of Great Briton”, he actually admitted his predicted, “Increase of trade and population in Scotland”, as a result of the Union was, “Not the case, but rather the contrary”.
Sir Walter Scott wrote. “It may be doubted whether the descendants of the noble lords and honourable gentlemen who accepted this gratification would be more shocked at the general fact of their ancestors being corrupted or scandalised at the paltry amount of the bribe”. So the truth is Scotland was indeed been properly stitched up both before and since, “The Treaty of Union”.
@Illy and BFH
Sick of the entire bullshit economy issue. Its smoke and mirrors start to finish. Scotland has always had the means to care for its population.
There isn’t a politician, pundit or ‘respected’ think tank report could ever convince me to vote no.
Who to trust? The same devious self serving establishment system which brought us austerity Britain and has been ripping the electorate off for decades or the parliament which with one hand tied behind its back still manages to provide care for the elderly, free prescriptions and care at point of need, free higher education? A government, who should we vote for them in as the first independent administration are pledged to remove trident, provide a constitution, re-prioritise spend, abolish the bedroom tax and overhaul childcare. The only government who thought to give the electorate the power to make this choice in the first place.
Its not even a choice in my book.
So it was called Imperial Services back in those days that accounted for 27.5% of what Scotland sent to London in 1920/21 being spent back here in Scotland and the balance of 72.5% being disbursed on Imperial and British expenditure in England and why can’t I help myself from thinking that nothing has changed this disproportion to the present day.
No wonder the UK establishment are desperate to keep us filling their London coffers we’ve being doing so for bloody hundreds of years and being miscalled as ‘spongers’ to boot!
Also, why is Tam Dalyell fixated on his ‘West Lothian Question’ about Scots voting on purely English matters when history shows it has been the Scots who were being shafted at Westminster with English votes and yes, we still are being royally done, left, right and center. Time Tam – another ‘proud Scot’ – explained himself.
Gavin Alexander That was very helpful advice but how do I get the print back to normal?
Also, agree with Ian Brotherhood – forget the proportion of the UK debt due to Scotland – we’ve paid plenty through the years for England to imperially piss it up against the wall.
Are we gonna keep on being the patsy on this, let’s get bloody angry about it and stop being so stupid.
@ Training Day
Sure, some people are stupid, but I still don’t agree that all those who will vote No are stupid. Naive maybe, but not necessarily stupid.
Stupid would be voting NO after discovering the truth.
People only learn not to trust the authorities when they have reason to believe that they are being deceived.
I am well educated, hold down a decent job and I am knowledgeable in my field. Politics is not my field.
I can only speak for myself, but my blindness was not caused by stupidity. How then can I claim that others are stupid, when they, like me, might not have seen the facts.
Yes, I went looking for facts, but I started early, before the media coverage really took off. I didn’t want to be unsure on polling day. I wanted to know that when I put the X in the box, I would be certain I had made the right choice.
If I had waited, perhaps I would have accepted what the media were saying as well.
Anyway, this is why sites like WoS are so important, and why I share a lot of what is written here.
Like I say, it won’t end after September because more and more people are coming to see the truth. It’s just a question of whether there is time to get to everyone. If not there will be a lot of angry people around, who will not give up.
Right and royally shafted is what we have had done to us by this so-called union.
Thieves.
And what’s worse is that a bunch of so-called Scots have been complicit in this for decades, if not indeed centuries. Most of them have been royally honoured by the establishment for their treachery.
LET’S BE RID OF THEM ALL IN SEPTEMBER. FOR EVER. VOTE YES!
I used to think Scotland only became a net contributor in the 1970s. Now I am not so sure. Here’s a complaint from the National Association for the Vindication of Scottish Rights, founded in November 1853.
Royal expenditure in 1853 was £1,607,139 in London, but only £23,986 in Scotland – even Ireland got £107,351 for the upkeep of Phoenix Park, and Scotland paid more in tax than Bavaria, Denmark, Greece & Switzerland combined, or more than Sweden & Norway, Holland, Belgium, Naples, or Sardinia.
And there were elements of a civic movement even then. According to HJ Hanham in Mid-Century Scottish Nationalism, Patrick Edward Dove at the time argued:
“Whovever – whether he be black, white, red or yellow, the moment he identifies with the institutions of Scotland, that moment he becomes a member of the Scottish nation, and Caledonia mustr throw around him the mantle of protection”
So what happened to the NAVSR? It died out after jingoism over the Crimean War and Indian Mutiny increased British sentiment, the English press vilifing it as a product of ‘provincial mentality’ (unlike those unthreatening Scottish icons of tartan, bagpipes, and the Celtic twilight), and attempts to link the renewal of Scottish consciousness with the disloyal ‘popish plots’ underway in Ireland. (Because in those days if there was one thing guaranteed to wind up 19th century Scots more than being taken advantage of by England, it was Catholics – but that’s for another day.)
This information is sickening. How can anyone defend the union after this?
Taken from a 2008 States of Jersey (Channel Islands) report on possible independence for the island:
A gain in broad terms, our conclusion is that Jersey is equipped to face the challenges of independence.
This is not a surprising conclusion. We have had an independent legal and judicial system since 1204. We
have never been colonized, nor has the Island ever been incorporated into the realm of England or the UK.
We have had our own administration since 1204 and have enjoyed political autonomy in domestic affairs for
many centuries. The constitutional relationship with England, and subsequently the UK, has allowed the
Island to develop its own institutions and system of government under the protection of the Crown. Jersey
enjoys much greater autonomy than, for example, other overseas territories such as Bermuda or Gibraltar
and devolved administrations such as Scotland and Wales. Jersey is in reality already only one or two
steps away from sovereignty.
@heedtracker 10:56am
Looking at the report http://weir.co.uk/media/85604/INDEPENDENCE-REPORT.pdf on page 5 is the get out:
“This paper does not explore those linkages in depth, but begins the process of
identifying the issues that individual businesses face in relation to each of the topics
and the uncertainties and risks this throws up for business leaders to consider.”
I listened to the Weir Group spokesman on GMS this morning and wasn’t convinced that all the story was being told on-air. He was concentrating on all the short term costs that will inevitably arise with such a change in administration and didn’t seem to consider the longer term benefits.
I’ve not looked at who the report authors are, but it would be interesting to find out what their political/business/family allegiances are.
Robert Peffers says:
Robert, Excellent article about DeFoe something I have researched somewhat myself, but in the end gave up, thoroughly disgusted.
We have been well subjugated since the Union, all in order to destroy the ambitions of Scotland, keep the bulk of our GDP for themselves and their own ambitions. What I have trouble with is the whole indoctrination process that has long been applied to us.
Re writing of what little of our history is taught to our children, how we are subject to constant Anglicisation, and how we are consistently robbed to both keep us down trodden, and to help build English coffers.
Our ambitions are simply not allowed to grow, that is how we are treated, do not even get me started on the ” proud Scot” brigade, who are also controlled by Westminster, who assist them. The “Defore’s” of today.
“We gotta get out of this place, if it’s the last thing we ever do” as the song goes.
September 14th will be the day that in spite of all the lies, manipulation and threats, the Nation of Scotland will re emerge.
by the way, while thinking about how much more independence Jersey has than Scotland, I was wondering what they contribute to the UK exchequer: as far as I can tell, their contribution to the UK’s international representation is voluntary and pretty nominal (I’m ignoring for now the arguments about how much business the UK gets from the existence of tax havens). How is it they get to be pretty much independent and be ‘British’ yet any suggestion that Scotland changes its constitutional relationship with the UK is met by vitriol and seeming threats to send us to the international equivalent of Coventry?
May I thank Robert Peffers for his very enlightening post. I knew Daniel Defoe was an English Spy what I did not put together was the name of William Paterson with the Darien expedition, I do not remember ever being made aware of who conceived the whole disaster only that it made Scotland bankrupt. I do hope that children are now being better educated in their history, I know the English are rubbish at theirs.
To be honest, I really don’t know what more we can do or how much more evidence we need to produce, the deception we have been subject to for decades is absolutely apparent, it is probably the biggest concerted misinformation program in history. Why oh Why can’t some people see it, I’m all for debate and I have listened to more than I care to mention, the case for Independence is undisputable the facts and figures are completely authentic and yet, we have people twisting and spinning every fact possible to make a negative out of two positives, which we all know cannot happen in reality, but reality doesn’t seem to be an issue with the No campaigners. I worry though at the influence of the media only this morning I have yet again been told, we can’t have the pound, we won’t be in Europe, and it’s not our oil, and we will have to use the Euro, they couldn’t see the contradiction of not being in Europe and but having to use the Euro!! Do you have a chance of talking these folk round? …probably not, but I will keep trying.
Balance retained in London for Imperial Services, 1971 = Pooling and Sharing, 2014
I don’t have time to do a long post now, but there are a couple of points I want to make.
First, Darien didn’t make Scotland bankrupt. It made a lot of the nobles bankrupt though, and they were the ones in charge and they saw the union as a way out of their financial difficulies. The bourgeoisie and the middle classes were fine. There are a lot of contemporary records of land improvements as a consequence of the middle classes buying up land from the bankdupt nobility and instituting modern farming practices.
Second, the Defoe story goes on into the 1720s, with follow-up material he wrote describing how Scotland hadn’t benefited from the union but now “looked poor”, largely as a result of the higher orders taking the tax and then buggering off to London to spend it where all the power now was. He said that the country couldn’t thrive if much of its tax income was being spent outside the country.
That’s probably the first expression of what’s highlighted above, and it was less than 20 years after the union. As I said, there’s another example in the 1950s.
@ X sticks Tacitus had it sussed a while back.
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the ("Tractor" - Ed) moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the ("Tractor" - Ed) appears not a ("Tractor" - Ed); he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The ("Tractor" - Ed) is the plague.”
Marcus Tullius Cicero (Ancient Roman Lawyer, Writer, Scholar, Orator and Statesman, 106 BC-43 BC)
@YouAndMyComb(10:29) – I think this is the article you’re looking for:
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/scotlands-century-of-lost-wealth/
Fecking Scunnered
TYRAN says:
You are right, your comment says it all!
I think Chumbawamba’s “Song On The Time”, best conveys the struggle between rich and poor that has been going on since time immemorial.
Nothing changes unless we do something about it.
Vote YES
@Alan Mackintosh
Tacitus was a very shrewd and perceptive guy. On this particular subject he was 100% correct. We (me included) tend to blame westminster for many of our woes but in truth much of what has been done to Scotland in the name of the establishment has actually been done by Scots who are owned by that establishment.
BTW
Missing your humour ronnie. Hope all is good and you’re back online soon.
Alex Beveridge says:
3 April, 2014 at 9:48 am
We will never discover the true wealth of Scotland until we become an independent country, and then it will amaze us, and everybody else.
Just posted something in “off-topic” that might help the appreciation of what we are up against. The UKplc is run through the Treasury, the RTPI and the MSM, though I’ve almost certainly left some imperialist vestige off the list.
If you’ve any doubt about Scotland being able to afford its independence then read the extract above. The maths is done for you! We have been and still are being taken for a massive ride. This is the behaviour and attitude of our imperial masters in Westminster. This makes me angry – it should do you. More of the same? Waken up Scotland before you march into oblivion having your assets and your self respect stripped before your niave eyes!!!!
@ Grouse Beater
9:52
The lies and deceit were noted – with written evidence – in a book published in 1705:
An Historical Essay Showing the Crown and Kingdom of Scotland is Imperial and Independent.” by James Anderson, Writer to Her Majesty’s Signet.
How big is this book? Is there any chance we can get it reprinted?
I have been telling people that even before oil was discovered, Scotland held up the economy of the UK. The union has done such a snow job on the truth with the help of the huge democratic deficit; and the result is a country that doesn’t believe in itself, people (despite the bravado) with low self esteem. That is despicable.
Whose “broad shoulders”?!!! Brass necks more like!
I still have a an article in the Sunday Express on Feb 12, 2012 which was written by the Duke of Montrose those family signed the Act of Union. This was in defense of what they had done, his justification if you like. His fore bearers were part of the group dubbed “Squadron Volante” there was around 25 members. Who effectively sealed the Act of Union against the wishes of the population.
Many of their descendants are still leading figures in the House of Lords to this day.Some quotes from his article –
“The original supporters of the Union, all, had lost money in the Darien Scheme.”
“Obviously, they should have been thinking of the greater good but all, probably had certain expenses.”
“Scotland back then was in a similar position as Greece is at the moment. We had no money, so it was an easy decision to make”.
” Should be considered as visionaries not rogues”
He fails to explain that his family and those of the group, CHOSE, to put money into Darien because the thought they would make a lot of money.
So the lost some money and sold a Nation. WOW!
He says nothing of the discontent of the Scottish people, not a peep. Yet he takes time to lambast the SNP. Nothing has changed in 300 years for him and his existing friends, whose families signed Scotland away.
Those who who were involved and still carry ancestral titles today are- David Boyle, 1st Earl of Glasgow,(got £20,000 )Current Earl, Lib Dem Peer, Patrick Boyle.
James Douglas, 2nd Duke of Queensberry led the negotiations and got £12,325. ( current, 12th Duke of Queensberry, Richard Scott, now president of the National Trust for Scotland )
The Duke of Atholl, was given the princely sum of £1000.00!
The current Duke is John Murray, who is head of Europe’s only private army.
Then let us not forget the author of the piece, James Graham, Tory Peer. The current ” Duke of Montrose.
Yes folks we were sold out for vast sums as you can see, parcel of rogues is totally justified no matter what the Duke of Montrose says.
They took a chance and lost, so, amazingly, they sold Scotland to make back some of their money, what a brass neck they have for trying to defend the their shameless past of their kin.
@ Helena Brown
12:37
“I do hope that children are now being better educated in their history,…”
No, they are not!
Did anyone see this in yesterday’s Metro (on the bus, honest 🙂 )
North Sea industries need to reduce costs ‘by billions’ – Stephen Deal
Kevin Reynards, PwC’s office senior partner in Aberdeen, said: “We believe the North Sea has a huge futeure, but there is much work still to be done to secure this value and cement its position as a global oil and gas hub”.
He added, “If we choose not to change, then we risk sleep-walking into an early sunset. It is time to get started if we want to secure a vibrant UK North Sea over the next 40 years”.
My emphasis and single qute marks changes to double quotes. Sorry if already posted. 🙂
Morag
I posted a similar post but it has disappeared.
Les Wilson
Did the Duke of Montrose not have a lot of land and business interests in England, that were threatened by one of the Aliens Acts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliens_Act
Les Wilson. I understand that one of very many reasons for the Darien failure was the encouragement of Dutch and Spanish vessels to harras Scottish supply ships by the English government. They also forbade the Scots from trading with their overseas colonies!
There are a lot of contemporary records of land improvements as a consequence of the middle classes buying up land from the bankdupt nobility and instituting modern farming practices.
Equitable distributions pf land tenure is pivotal to the spread of democracy and development. I think. 😉
CameronB says:
Cameron, I would not doubt anything about them. They were self seeking low life’s.
Bigdrone says
Yes, they did do that, in the main, THEY caused the failure of the project in the first place,or at the very least they deliberately hindered it to the point it failed. They worked against us at every opportunity.
Scotland itself was their goal, and their prize.
I really feel like crying out of frustration that this has happened to our country and yet we are constantly told we are subsidy junkies and have been used as cannon fodder in all wars sent in first to battle to test the water .
How can anyone actually be polite or not hit those who who say we are better together , I know we must .
On another note how do we know Ian Murray didn’t put the yes sticker on his own window , can he prove he did not do it ?
As true now as then! No change,we must vote Yes.
I’m not at all surprised that someone from our community would unearth a diamond like this.I think it could be a good idea to start digging and fleshing this story up.
The reaction I receive, when handing out the “John Jappy” article is a) incredulity, b) realisation it is true, c) anger, d) potential yes vote. However, this article is far more important and if taken to its full potential, would surely push us to the finishing line.
If we could collate all the relevant figures for the last 100 years, lay it out in a user friendly formatted letter, and deliver it to every household, then even the die hard unionists would have to question their stance.
This would be a huge undertaking, and maybe cost prohibitive, but surely worthwhile exploring considering the reward. We can approach it as a joint project with other Yes groups, invite Yes Scotland (who knows?), crowd fund a letter drop, what ever it takes. We need this type of information out there to debunk this Better Together pish for all time.
I have a close family member who works in the National Library for Scotland, who will be willing to obtain copies of documents relating to this. If anybody can point me in the right direction of what is required, it is appreciated.
It’s a tragedy, all these years of a budget surplus and unemployed Scots were encouraged to emigrate destroying families when all the time there was sufficient monies to invest in Scottish infrastructure and keep them employed building a better Scotland. The A9 is death highway and still not continuous motorway between Glasgow and Edinburgh
I knew bits and pieces of the history so many posters have brought together on this page despite being taught only a little of the “official” Scottish History in school. I know my own children fared even worse.
How about some posters with a few snippets to get folk thinking or a leaflet with some of the history outlining how we got into this “State”?
I detest the Scottish cringe created by the history and ongoing abuse of democracy, but, so many seem unaware that the government has always sought to dupe us.
I believe this is the document that figures came from:
http://eppi.dippam.ac.uk/pdf1/16084.pdf
Can I sound a wee note of caution about the figures shown in the 1971 book. The apparent robbery may be more to do with the daft way the Treasury did their sums back in the 20s than fiscal larceny.
This is the source of the figures –
http://eppi.dippam.ac.uk/documents/22748/eppi_pages/639511
“Imperial Expenditure” (shown in detail in earlier pages of the document) includes expenditure on the Armed Forces, all UK pensions, etc.
Scotland is indeed shown as having 72% of its total revenue allocated to “Imperial” but, to be fair, the England and Wales proportion is 74%.
P.S MochaChoca’s link to the document is much better than mine.
@MochaChoca
Great find!
Lots of interesting stuff, but as Barney says, maybe not as explosive as the headline figure (27.5% to us, 72.5% to them) that the book draws on first suggests.
The critical parts I suppose is how the population split worked out back then, and the fact that what is now called ‘unidentified spending’ maybe was a far higher proportion back then.
@ Betty Boop
Betty
Apologies for my tardiness – am under the gun with projects.
The book you refer to I am extrapolating as fast as my normal work allows and will place significant sections on my website …
grousebeater.wordpress
… as I interpret the old Scots and lots of Latin.
It is a pocket sized book, leather bound as you’d expect, of 277 well foxed pages and 100 more of an appendix. It might well be the only copy in existence. It cost me a small fortune when I spotted it at the London auction. I rescued it for our posterity.
The ancient language used is wonderful, often as angry as ours at the torrent of black propaganda, lies and distrortions the author is confonted in his day.
Here’s a sample as published, old spelling, caps on nouns and adjectives, and “s” looks like an “f”:
“Such a wicked a silly commentary is not to be paralelled. Nor cou’d Malice devise anything more Calumious, than to conclude all Scots men who will not calmy surrender their Liberties, to be deeply engaged with France.
Even without the financial figures it’s easy to see Scotland has been plundered.
If you look at the census figures of 100 years ago, Scotland’s population was around 5 million, and England’s around 40 million.
Now Scotland is still about 5 million while England’s population has risen over 40%. That does not suggest even handed government to me (of any shade). Someone has been eating our share of the cake.
The worst of it is, our go getters have mainly had to go. The world over is full of successful businesses established by emigrant Scots.
Just think of what a powerhouse this country could have been by now if there had been the opportunities here.
Never mind the money, the biggest loss has been of our people. The Clearances live on in a different guise.
Vote YES.
Tell me if from day one of this union we have been paying a surplus why the FEKK would we take any debt? FREEDOM for the Scottish pound not tied to the English one at 1 to 1 we float our Scottish pound on the market like all other monies.
1920 i wonder how much in pensions they paid out that year in Scotland? im sure with all the Scottish regements in WW1 it must have been close to the £86 million oops yea thats right most of them died and im sure their next of kin got paid hansomly.
How is a country suppose to sustain itself when our wealth and resources are spent in another?
The biggest benefit Scots will experience upon independence is the repatriation of all the Govt functions we fund in London.
All of a sudden our kids will have all the opportunities denied to them as part of the union.Scotland would be a proper country once more.
As I think I said here before, I saw an account for the mid 19th century, if I remember correctly, it was in an early Bella Caledonia comment. It was an image of a table frome a newspaper article, (Times I think). Unfortunately I cannot find it although I am pretty sure I saved it at the time.
Anyway, it was much the same story, Scotland contributed 2 to 3 times more to the Treasury than it got back, although both Ireland and Wales were in deficit to the Treasury at that point.
Also, it is well known that Scotland’s national debt in 1707 was virtually nothing whereas England’s was enormous by the standards of the time.
And never forget this information was deliberately hidden from the Scottish Electorate by a Labour Government and all the Scottish Labour MPs in it to deny any positive ammunition for the threatening SNP votes and the likely votes they would get if the true value of Scotland’s Oil was known. Smith, Dewar,Robertson,Wilson,Ingram,Ross,Cook,Lambie,Millan,Brown and a host of others. Such a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation!
Never forget it was a Labour Government and Scottish Labour MPs who lied to us in the seventies about the oil revenues. Brown, Smith, Dewar, Wilson, Ross, Lambie, Ingram, Cook, Millan and more; Such a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation!
Yet another priceless discovery, that’s the beauty of paper & ink.. ye canny erase what once was written. Hopefully there’ll be many more ‘revelations’ between now and Scotland’s Day. The American, legendary Bill Hicks would also have summed it up in five words!
Anyway fellow Scotians.. hold on tight to the independence roller-coaster, cause this is your Final Countdown to freedom (On topic: Europe & Foreigner play Glasgow this Saturday hehe).
Cactus.
There is no doubt that the British establishment have treated Scotland like they would any other colony in the world.
They seem to think it is their right to steal riches from other countries and use for their own aims whilst at the same time despising the populations of those same countries.
I have always known that we were not considered to be equal partners but I didn’t realise we were less than nothing to them.
The likes of Gordon Brown, Douglas Alexander – both ‘sons of the manse’ and all those other Scottish labour apparatchiks should get down on their knees and beg forgiveness from the people of Scotland
Been an independence supporter all my life,and reading once more of all the treacherous acts bestowed on my dear nation still drives me to despair.the thought of waking up to a no vote on September 19 is more than I can bear.Only by reading the posts of like minded patriots on this site keeps me going.thanks to one and all,and keep up the great work you are all doing. We have to win this for all future generations in this nation. VOTE YES.
It looks like Westminster has been robbing Scotland and it children for a long long time, when will it end. We MUST vote YES.
Chicmac, here you go.
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Tax-outflow-Telegraph-1964-262×1024.jpg
It’s what I referred to in a post above. It must have been a different set of statistics because this refers to the figures stopping in 1952 I think, but it’s the same story.
If we can’t get a 50% + 1 vote after all these revealations, we will have to conclude that a majority of our population is indeed too stupid.
The investigation into the death of Willie MacRae should be re-opened. Special attention should be paid to David Coutts, friend and business partner of Kenny MacAskill. Perhaps a good placd to start would be to interview Dr Dorothy Messer.
A whole can of worms is there to be opened.
While I’m very much pro-independence, it’s worth looking again at those figures.
If you take the ratio of money spent on services in Scotland to contribution, around 27%, and compare to England, 25%, it’s clear England were getting the same raw deal.
The figures show the UK spent a vast amount on the ’empire’, not that Scotland was hit comparatively worse.
Looking forward to hearing the debate on this information on Call Kaye.
I think the reality is that all these figures and all the made up figures from unioinists are all made logically mute if you just ask yourself one question. ” Why does Westminster hold on to Scotland ” ?
Is it because they like us lol ?
Is it ( as unionists would have you believe) that they just like throwing money at us? When they have never ever done that with any country at any point in history ever.
Or is it that Scotland generates far more money than we cost?
That would be a good reason.
Does any unionist anywhere have another answer to why Westminster holds on to Scotland?