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Wings Over Scotland


And smile, smile, smile

Posted on August 10, 2014 by

Alert readers may recall that when the UK government announced plans for a £55m jamboree to mark the beginning of World War 1, on a date conveniently before the independence referendum rather than the traditional Remembrance Day in November, the more cynical of Yes supporters were immediately suspicious and/or angry.

But despite David Cameron initially announcing it as a “Jubilee-style” event that would tap into the celebratory spirit of the Olympics and might feature a star-studded football match (rather clumsily between Germany and England, rather than Britain or the Allies), the assurance was given that it would in fact be a sombre event respectfully commemorating the sacrifice of the dead, and definitely NOT a jingoistic festival of Britishness designed to influence the outcome of the vote.

Above is the video released by the “Military Wives” choir for the occasion, featuring Eamonn Holmes, Alan Titchmarsh, a George Formby impersonator and a dancing dog singing “Pack Up Your Troubles”, a jaunty song about what a jolly lark war is.

Further comment from us seems superfluous. So instead we thought we’d leave you with a few extracts from another BBC article on the song, from January this year.

The woe behind World War One song Pack Up Your Troubles

It became the stiff-upper-lip anthem of World War One and continues to earn royalties to this day.

Yet when brothers and music hall stars George and Felix Powell penned Pack Up Your Troubles in Your Old Kit Bag they thought it ‘piffle’ and abandoned it. But the tune was pulled from a drawer marked ‘duds’ for a contest to find a marching tune for the troops – and won.

The St Asaph-born brothers said it was ‘the best laugh of our lives’ but the laughing was not to last long.

With success came heartache and bitter creative differences between the brothers. George had been a life-long pacifist, and as a conscientious objector he had reservations about his tune’s use as a rallying cry from the outset.

Felix on the other hand immediately signed-up, and spent WW1 as a staff sergeant touring the trenches with their morale-boosting ditty.

But St Asaph councillor and Powell enthusiast Denise Hodgkinson said that in time even Felix became horrified by how the song was being used.

‘The song was described as the most upbeat ever written, and Felix was a star at the height of music hall, in the same vein as Charlie Chaplin,’ she said. ‘But gradually he became very upset that it was his tune which was accompanying thousands and thousands of men to their deaths.’ 

Felix experienced a nervous breakdown in the trenches, and ended the war a broken man.

The brothers were however reconciled and moved to Sussex, where they ran a theatre and local newspaper. But Felix found it difficult to write after that and, with mounting financial problems, he took his own life in 1942 on the stage of the theatre he ran with his brother.”

Sing along at home, readers, won’t you?

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245 to “And smile, smile, smile”

  1. goldenayr says:

    An establishment that is happy to kill it’s own people will have no pangs about disrespecting someones memory.

  2. donald anderson says:

    Depressing or wot.

    Here’s a wee ditty onyways amongst all the jingoism and Hallelujah hypocrites.

    Glesga Kiss For Yes.

    Oh lassie will ye go with me
    Doon by the Gallowgate
    Will ye see the river falls with me
    And freedom in full spate

    Will ye see the Rock whose sons are true
    The Holy Loch no more a nuclear waste
    No more children born to sign the buroo
    Will you see a bright future for you and me that lasts

    Will you say Yes to all that we can do
    Where the birds sing out on Glasgow Green
    Where the future’s bright and sky’s are blue.
    And Empire’s wars are never seen.

    Where is the bird that never flew
    The tree that never grew
    Where is the bell that never rang
    The fish that never swam

    They shrank upon that dark and shameful day
    The end of an auld sang
    The day they sold our rights away
    And ("Tractor" - Ed)s bells they rang

    The bird was caged not to fly away
    The tree was withered old and grey
    The bell played how sad I was on my wedding day
    The fish too poor to swim away.

    No more to fly a Saltire sky
    No more dear green hollow’s fields of green
    No more Bow Bells rings, to sound a lie
    No more salmon leaps on Clutha’s stream

    Till the bird calls out for Freedom’s sang
    Till the tree stands high with freedom’s spring
    Till the bell chimes free and loud and lang
    Till salmon leaps a chiel that winna ding

    Yes to the bird that flies again on high
    Yes to the tree that of liberty that springs no lie
    Yes to the bell that rings for Aye
    Yes to the fish that leaps up to the very sky

    The Birds, the Bells, the Trees, the very fishes
    Are you and me and all that’s true and free
    Where we can make come true our every wishes
    If you’ll say Yes to ring Liberty Bell with with me.

  3. heedtracker says:

    Modern day UK jingos, either blind to or just completely ignoring this, ‘But gradually he became very upset that it was his tune which was accompanying thousands and thousands of men to their deaths.’

    On balance though, if austerity Westminster UKOK is lashing out £55 million on the anniversary of the start of war against Germany, what can else can we expect.

  4. peter says:

    Disgusting to be honest, the whole glorification of War is beyond belief.

  5. Camz says:

    Happy to kill? Of course.

    Why else did they move to classify e-cigarettes as ‘medicine’?

    To prevent the losses to the UK purse and the associated corporations. No mention of it being the best chance ever to rid the population of tobacco addictions and the illnesses that come with them.

    They have no interest in you, your family or your hopes and dreams. They want you vote, then want you to shut up until next time they want you vote.

  6. BuckieBraes says:

    Unspeakably sick. Why didn’t they just go the whole hog and get Gary Tank Commander to sing a verse?

  7. Tom Platt says:

    A re-release of the original George Formby version would have gone down better with me.

  8. kestral says:

    god that is a tragic story, I can’t believe we are trying to turn war remembrance into a party

    God it’s almost like the John Wayne syndrome

  9. Grendel says:

    Pass the hat round chaps, and pay for the care of our ex servicemen and women- because the government that sent them off to fight on their behalf won’t.

  10. goldenayr says:

    Tom Platt

    Eh?

  11. Flooplepoop says:

    Why do ssafa,Help for Heroes,Army of Angels,etc exist?
    If westminster is so proud of the armed forces, surely they’d be embarrassed that charities are needed to fill a gaping void for assistance to injured personnel.
    Westminster better watch out, or people may get the distinct impression that westminster doesn’t give a flying f**k about the people injured/killed in the execution of westminster’s foreign policies.

  12. Cindie says:

    Smile? It makes me want to weep

  13. Ian Brotherhood says:

    As embarrassing as it is grotesque, this is an accurate reflection of the BTUKOK mind-set.

    We are dealing with people who do not understand the concept of ‘common decency’ – the superficial jollity and faux patriotism masks profound sociopathic traits.

    In short, we’re up against nutters.

  14. Croompenstein says:

    Pack up your limbs and the shattered bodies of your friends in your old kit bag FFS smile, smile smile

  15. Cag-does-thinking says:

    I find it odd at the moment that the UK government has crashed along some kind of errm commemoration like they have today. I’ve seen that footage from 100 years ago of the troops marching down the Royal Mile off to war and ultimately slaughter. It’s always struck me as sad, that waste of these young lives, for the sake of an empire. So it seems a bit of a grotesque parody to do it again today, what next are we gonna send them off to Iraq? It’s not appropriate, they are desperate to show us as a military mighty nation. Or is it they want to show Scotland that the UK is a military mighty nation? Stirling, the Red Arrows go UK, the Carrier, I’ve never seen so much military presence in Scotland as I have these last few months. Of course it’s purely co-incidental, I’m sure these things would all have taken place over the course of one summer on any given year that Scotland has a referendum on independence. The start of the great war is not a thing to be celebrated, nor it’s end. It was and is the most pointless waste of human life for the position of empires that no longer exist. A trip to the graveyards of France and Belgium is a sobering affair as it should be, all further comment is pretty superflous.

  16. Thepnr says:

    The SSAFA is a charity set up for “Lifelong Support for Our Forces and their Families.

    My question is who would need such support. Well the answer is obvious, it is those members of the armed forces that have suffered through no fault of their own whilst serving their country.

    This charity does good work for many veterans, in Scotland you might think of it as a bit like Erskine House though it isn’t really.

    I am extremely pissed off with the mendacity of the video, we are not supposed to be “celebrating” but “commemorating” the START of WW1. So why does this video remind me so much of Shiny Happy People by REM?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCQ0vDAbF7s

    The people running this campaign are thick as shit, using bullshit such as this makes it so obvious. The fact that they make such attempts shows their utter desperation.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M

    We’re winning EASY 🙂

  17. Sinky says:

    In the Hootsman No campaigner Hew Strachan claiming Scottish WW1 casualties were exaggerated by nationalists.

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/great-war-worst-for-scots-troops-a-myth-1-3504582

  18. Colin Mccartney says:

    O/T and a word of warning
    The BBC have introduced “special rules” during the referendum and are using them to moderate comments. It’s called censorship by most other people.
    “Dear BBC Visitor,
    Thank you for contributing to the BBC web site. Unfortunately we’ve had to remove the content below because it contravened one of our House Rules.
    This post has been removed because special House Rules are in effect during referendum periods.”
    and in case you are wondering what terrible post I made, it was in response to the appointment ( pay off ) of the latest life peers. –
    Subject:
    Karren Brady and Sir Stuart Rose among new life peers
    Posting:
    vote YES Scotland, and you will never have to endure these scroungers again

  19. Doug Daniel says:

    I feel a reading of Dulce Et Decorum Est would be a more fitting tribute.

    The sooner we can get away from Good Ol’ Blighty jingoistic bollocks, the better. Maybe folk darn sarf will stop believing their own propaganda then. One can only hope…

  20. handclapping says:

    And what thanks did the lower classes get from the Establishment for their support during the War? Homes fit for heroes? More like heroes fit for homes. SSAFA, Haig Poppy Fund, charity then and charity now, Help for Heroes.

    It is too easy for Westminster to send our troops into danger for political gain. Ditch them and make sure the Scottish Constitution has a firm grip on the choice of War.

  21. heedtracker says:

    They should have shot the generals and come home. The Russians did it.

  22. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Sinky

    It’s quite easy to verify the disproportionate loss of Scottish lives.

    Just go to the Scottish National War Memorial in Edinburgh Castle and count the 126,000 names of the dead in our line regiments.

  23. Thepnr says:

    Now is the time to stay strong, their bullshit is just that. The people I met at the weekend re very positive for Yes in the main.

    Don’t sweat, our lead is building. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

  24. Scotsfox says:

    And more idiocy from the Scottish Office to boot… https://twitter.com/scotlandoffice/status/498397118634016768

  25. Capella says:

    @donald anderson great poem Donald reminds me of traditional ballads and the line about what the bells in Edinburgh played at the union treaty “how sad I was on my wedding day” is so apt! The sequel is about to launch.

  26. Alan says:

    Jesus wept, that is a grim tale.

    Only freaks survive and flourish in the military industrial establishment.

    If there was a test (see Blade Runner) that identifies such folk. They should be castrated and sent to a remote desert island upon identification.

  27. Cuilean says:

    I watched tonight on BBC with Sally Magnusson an unheard of before ‘Drumhead’ commemoration nonsense. THis mania for all things military & jingoistic, makes one wonder if I slept through a coup, and a military junta is in power.I could only stand it for so long, as it was one bloody union jack after another, subliminally, and not so subliminally, positioned. This is totally deliberate, no bones about it. Just wait, after the Referendum all this armed services, WW1, nonsense (‘Great’ War) nonsnense, will abruptly cease. Considering how shoddily ex-servicemen are treated in this god awfully hypocritical country (high proportion homeless and/or suicidal, it really makes me sick. Consider Lord Kitchener. I doubt the BBC will mention his policy for keeping Catholics and Protestants separate. Nor will it mention the many mutinies (class based undoubtedly) in the trenches by troops refusing to ‘go over the top’ to ceratin death from machine guns, nor the Eton Generals belief that wiping out the lower classes was considered ‘a little useful weeding’ & no great mischief if THEY fall’ the THEY in question being Scots regiments (now, in all but name, expunged regiments)! Scots regiments who died at three times the rate of their English counterparts. The ‘War Horse’ charge never happened, by the way. The only near annihilation of a horse regiment was by an inept Eton General, who upon seeing horses in the distance approaching, ordered them to be fired upon; only to be told by ‘the other ranks’, ‘ER… they are the Scots Grey, … Sir’.

  28. Tony Little says:

    @Doug Daniel

    I hope with permission

    Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
    Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
    Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
    And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
    Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
    But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
    Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
    Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
    Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
    Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
    But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
    And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
    Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
    As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
    In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
    He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
    If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
    Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
    And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
    His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
    If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
    Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
    Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
    Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
    My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
    To children ardent for some desperate glory,
    The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
    Pro patria mori.

  29. Capella says:

    @ Heedtracker
    Quite a few officers in the British army were shot in the back.
    Robert Graves records that most squaddies spent the battles hiding behind a rock. “Goodbye to All That”

  30. JGedd says:

    The bathos of all this insensitive “celebration” of a dreadful slaughter is illustrative of the kind of witless, exploitative society the UK has become. The shameless revisionism which has been going on in the media and the political classes regarding this history is particularly appalling.

    I grew up learning about the awful carnage and cruelty of the First World War and the tragic spectacle of young men whose experience of life was naive and limited, coming often from backgrounds that had been confined only to the streets of their home town or small village, being taken off to a hellish, nightmare of a war which none of them could have imagined.

    Reading the war poets confronted you with the torment and fear these young men were subjected to and the horrific deaths which overtook so many. It was harrowing when I was young, but now that I have grown older, to contemplate the waste of those young lives is even more heartbreaking. I can’t read those accounts and the war poems without tears. Age makes it even harder to bear.

    That it should have come to this, that it should have become a show, a celebratory event, is disheartening to say the least. In the intervening years, it appears that attitudes of the governing classes to war and those who fight them have not changed and how hideously apropos that a banal marching song which played young men unwittingly to their deaths should be resurrected in the same mawkish spirit as in the infancy of modern warfare.

    Thanks for telling us the history of the songwriters which in its own way is a poignant echo of the larger tragedy of those who went to war.

  31. goldenayr says:

    heedtracker

    Careful,they’ll be dispatching the Anti Terrorist Squad with talk like that.

  32. donald anderson says:

    Capella

    @donald anderson great poem Donald reminds me of traditional ballads and the line about what the bells in Edinburgh played at the union treaty “how sad I was on my wedding day” is so apt! The sequel is about to launch.

    Tanks. It was meant to refer to these Edinburgh bells chiming the sad song of 1707 and to be Glasgow’s part of the whole of Scotland. Get the alliteration Jimmy? I know its not technically correct, or in the pansy flooer tradition and could do with some work. For some reason it was in my head with a tune I had never heard, along with the fish that never swam, etc.

  33. Grouse Beater says:

    It’s all in “Oh What a Lovely War.”

  34. Rory says:

    I have to say i’m greetin, what a show of horrors, tragic, …that is truly the most horrifying tale, of anguish, and abuse, so creepy.

    What a horrible place we live in, that’s enough internet for me tonight

    i feel sick

  35. goldenayr says:

    JGedd

    And yet there are those who partook,or lived through the loss of war,who rationalise that blood spilt,for profit,is honourable.

  36. Thepnr says:

    You folk are being fed Shiny Happy People shite all the tiem through TV and printed crap.The truth is so obviously something different.

    It’s depressing. The opposite of Shiny by REM. I think he was making a point.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijZRCIrTgQc

  37. PeeGee says:

    Jackie baillie’s got a new beret I see. Does she sing as badly as she tells blubber-faced lies?

  38. Morag says:

    *Goes away and finds recording of Morning Heroes to play*

  39. Gary says:

    This has, from the start, been run from the top down. A celebratory, triumphalist orgy. Forgotten are the reasons, such as they are, for the war and forgotten too are the ‘lost generation’ those who never returned to their families and the families losing sons, brothers and fathers. They seem to be unimportant as does the plight of those survivors returning, many injured and maimed in both body and spirit too an ungrateful government that forgot its debt to them almost immediately. ‘Homes Fit for Heroes’ they were let down then, and they are let down now, just as their modern counterparts are. Obviously done for political reasons, that goes without saying, but I can’t imagine ANY veteran of the war, were they still alive to see this travesty, being happy to participate. The government should apologise for its shameful actions and tell the story, the TRUE story, of the men sent to die for no good reason.

  40. Faltdubh says:

    O/T Yougov poll

    No 55 (plus 1) Yes 35 (no change) Undecided 10 (-1)

    Hahah, not a chance it is that!

    It’s tighter than a ….. GO out and speak to people. We may well behind, but it’s marigin of error stuff.

  41. Marcia says:

    Capella

    It was rumoured that Harry Lauder’s son, John was shot by his own men in the 1916 Somme battle as he was a very unpopular officer. I don’t know if it is true. Harry Lauder wrote his famous song ‘ Keep Right On To The End Of The Road’ after his son’s death.

  42. Truth says:

    I’m glad you added what you did Stu.

    I was about to add the fact it was written by a pacifist and conscientious objector.

    The British state will literally sink to any depths to perpetuate all that is British. I refer to present times and WWI times as well.

    We have to vote yes.

  43. Dr Jim says:

    maybe we can have a jaunty ditty that we sing on the way to the polling booth.
    Could be a hit for The Krankies…are they Scottish?
    Only asking…

  44. ScotFree1320 says:

    Reuters UK have apparently decided not to publish further comments from me that questions the No campaign and/or their coverage of the referendum. Their Scottish Independence landing page rivals that of the Daily Mail.

  45. geeo says:

    Apparently, the celebration of the tanks being in George square is being brought forward to the week of the referendum…….

    That’s if they can find any..

    Who the hell celebrates war, never mind the start of a war which millions died for not much??

  46. Capella says:

    @ donald anderson
    worth working on. After the sad wedding, the fairytale divorce!
    Look forward to the next version. It’s a work in progress!

  47. Croompenstein says:

    Jesus Suffering Christ do they sing this verse?…

    Private Perks he came back from Bosche-shooting
    With his smile his funny smile.
    Round his home he then set about recruiting
    With his smile his funny smile.
    He told all his pals, the short, the tall,
    What a time he’d had;
    And as each enlisted like a man
    Private Perks said ‘Now my lad,’ Hi!

  48. Ian Brotherhood says:

    A short extract from ‘The Fog Of War’, a feature-length documentary interview with Robert McNamara.

    Not the same war being ‘commemorated’, and not the same nationality, but the basics remain the same.

    In Tokyo (1990-92) my (Japanese) landlord was a professor of English at Sophia University. He was evacuated to Korea during the war, but his mother stayed in Tokyo, and survived the bombing shown in this clip. She told him the worst job during the clean-up was trying to retrieve body parts which had become lodged in trees during the firestorm, when people were literally lifted into the air by tornados of flame.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfPwR00HXM0

  49. bobdog collie says:

    It is disgusting that our Scottish servicemen are forgotten when any reference is made to past wars as England and its allies or Germany and England , these remarks do not help when we are told we are better together

  50. Lesley-Anne says:

    Nice to see they’ve all had their little practice then.

    I see Cameron looks like committing aircraft to go start attacking those ISIS bunch of fanatics in Iraq but no, definitely NO, feet on the ground as they say. Well that will be NO feet on the ground in Iraq until AFTER NO win on 19th September then it wi;l;l be all hands to pumps to get every single military personnel possible into Iraq. Best they all start learning these lyrics now I reckon.

    Vote YES stop this madness. Let’s SAVE lives instead of throwing them away.

    On second thoughts let’s send the Westminster politicians into Iraq and send our troops into Westminster!

  51. Colin says:

    16,000,000 people died during WW1, with another 20,000,000 wounded. Hardly something to celebrate.

  52. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

    After a tidal wave of triumphalism and claims that Salmond blew it even the notoriously No friendly pollster YouGov produces, no change.

    The debate didn’t change a thing for them.

    Now we start hammering No on the doorseps with,

    Who do you trust with scotland’s future?

    The scottish people or westminster politicians?

  53. Thepnr says:

    You know what? There are 39 days left to do the business!

    Yes 39 days, I don’t believe we can spend much more time navel gazing and it’s more about getting the “finger oot” as they say.

    FFS folk, we, that means YOU have the power to ensure we get the result that is right for us and EVERYONE in the country I am proud to have been born in.

    I am a “Proud Scot” though, I have NO but. No but at all.

    Only the doubters do.

    I’m pleading, stop talking and start fighting, do your bit as best you can. Now is the time to put yourself forward. This is no social club, it is a movement that needs you to get off your arse.

    There are no more chances after Sept 18th, this is it. Please get stuck right intae them and make your voice heard!! Start with those closest to you and work from there.

    Please don’t make me feel ashamed on the 19th or even worse, yourself.

  54. Morag says:

    I don’t understand all this “no change” stuff. Are all the packed Yes meetings (compared to the handful of folk at No meetings) an illusion? Are all the stories from multiple sources of people moving to Yes all fabricated?

    I’m genuinely baffled.

  55. thedogphilosopher says:

    @Ian Brotherhood 10.02

    Yes, spot on, I had been thinking along similar lines before reading this post that Westminster has become a haven for sociopaths & psychopaths (self-obsessed, manipulative, power-hungry, sensation-seeking). It would explain a lot of very weird behaviour (Tony Blair? Boris? The list goes on …).

    I hope EBC run repeats of Blackadder Goes Forth as a more fitting and accurate tribute. I believe it has a strange character called Darling who jumps whenever his superior officer barks!

  56. caz-m says:

    O/T

    Evening Express, (never heard of it) wanting a bit too much personal info on their Referendum poll.

    http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/indyref-poll

  57. Lesley-Anne says:

    Sorry for going OP/T but just read that Darling’s sidekicks expect the BBC debate with Alex Salmond to take place on 25th August. They have not yet decided on the venue yet.

  58. Lesley-Anne says:

    I can’t believe that they want a PHOTOGRAPH of you as well. What is this paper caz, a front for GCHQ? 😛

  59. Les Wilson says:

    Lesley-Anne says:

    Why do THEY decide?

  60. Capella says:

    @Marcia I can’t remember where I came across the info about shooting the officers, possibly in Graves memoirs. Will look.
    @Thepnr almost everybody I know is voting YES. Short of vote rigging, I am expecting a resounding YES majority. Who, when asked “would you like to be independent?” could possibly answer no!

  61. Lesley-Anne says:

    To be fair Les that is more down to my bad *ahem* reporting. I think the ‘they’ in question is not BT but the BBC. 😉

  62. Clootie says:

    JGedd summed it up “insensitive celebrations”

    An insult to those who died in a pointless war.

    If we have such high regard for our hero’s why do charities have to bear the burden of their care?

    This constant attempt to use death and mayhem to imply a bond makes me sick. It was the same propaganda used to form the “Pals Companies” and feed them into the grinder.
    Don’t join and you are a coward.
    Refuse to join on moral grounds and you are a coward.
    Suffer from Shell shock and you will be shot as a coward
    Lie to join at 14/15 and as a child run in fear and still be shot a coward.

    We should remember this horror but not with this type of trashy material.
    We should reflect on the Imperial War Machine that still lingers in our midst.

  63. Dal Riata says:

    The British Establishment find an easy £55 million during a time of austerity to tell the MOD to put on loads of military spectaculars with heaps of pomp and ceremony, using WW1 as the justification, while ordering the welcomely compliant MSM to pump out the propaganda, all to try to keep Scotland (its resources, they don’t give a toss about the people who live there) within their monstrous grasp. Scum.

  64. Les Wilson says:

    All this stuff is organised by the people who rule us and their proxies. Such is their desperation, there no bottom to how low they will go. I cannot imagine we will EVER forget what they are doing here.

    After a YES vote, we will open to books to the world as to what “democratic UK ” has been doing to pervert the course of said democracy. They will be shown to everyone far and wide, just how low and contemptible,and totally inept they are.
    Cannot wait to get rid of them.

  65. Ian Brotherhood says:

    For sheer tackiness and chutzpah, the ‘Smile, Smile, Smile’ video is right up there with this image of Blair meeting Iraqi children in Basra:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39096000/jpg/_39096012_blair_iraq_pa300.jpg

  66. fred blogger says:

    celebrate no! commemorate, yes. lest we forget.
    oh, what a lovely war, goodbyee.
    as harry patch said, war is organised slaughter.

  67. caz-m says:

    Those that came back from the trenches would have had terrible flash backs to the war, probably affected their family life and children.

    Alcoholism and domestic abuse were rife. Also suicide. Unemployment, poor housing and diet led to many early deaths in Scotland.

    Then in 1939, their kids were sent into ANOTHER World War.
    The same horrible cycle started all over again.

  68. Capella says:

    @Tony Little
    Meant to post this earlier. Brilliant war poem above. I read it out loud to my husband who was busy online but it stopped him in his tracks, it was so powerful. We must not let these sacrifices become fodder for the neo liberal war mongers.

  69. North chiel says:

    The “YES” commemorative song should be “The Green
    Fields of France”(corriessongs)

  70. Chic McGregor says:

    @Capella and Heedtracker

    “Quite a few officers in the British army were shot in the back.
    Robert Graves records that most squaddies spent the battles hiding behind a rock. “Goodbye to All That””

    An alleged, but unproven, example being General Wolfe at Quebec.

    This is based on the well known disdain with which he held Scots…

    “no great mischief if they fall.”

    …being the most famous quote although sometimes you will see unionists try to mitigate this by adding the words immediately before it i.e….

    “they are hardy, intrepid, accustomed to a rough country, and no great mischief if they fall.”

    …with the inference that he only meant that they would not complain of casualties.

    However a fuller contextual quote makes it very clear what his attitude (and his correspondent’s) was

    A bit of background is required. A colleague of Wolfe, Bartloo, and his company had been slaughtered by American Indians, his friend Rickson(to whom he is writing) was now assigned the highly undesirable and dangerous task of dealing with the Indians on their own ground. I’ll start the quote where he describes Bartloo as a dunderheid well fitted to such a thankless and dangerous task:

    “I think Bartloo is a loss; his logger head was fit enough for these kinds of expeditions and would save much fatigue to better men. I should imagine that two or three independent Highland Companies might be of use; they are hardy, intrepid, accustomed to a rough country, and no great mischief if they fall. How can you better employ a secret enemy than by making his end conducive to the common good?
    (my emphasis)

  71. Fairliered says:

    The gloryfying of WW1 by Westminster and their BBC lackeys just shows what a bunch of evil warmongers they are. The sooner we are rid of them and an rejoin civilised society, the better!

  72. Marco McGinty says:

    This “commemoration” or “celebration” of war is vile, sickening and disgusting, and as many others have pointed out, it is just a pathetic attempt by the UK government to impose “Britishness” on the population. But should we expect anything else from unionist governments that have lied to take us into wars, followed by others that are complicit in the recent attacks on Palestine, whilst suggesting the attacks did not happen.

    Out of interest, the spell check automatically changed Britishness to brutishness, which is particularly apt.

  73. wee folding bike says:

    Twenty years ago the Imperial War Museum used to run an ad on the London Underground which said “No pomp, just the circumstance”. Looks like we’re getting the reverse just now.

  74. Lesley-Anne says:

    Is it just me or does something STINK around here? Firstly the celbration, or was it a commemoration in Glasgow the other week and now another celebration, or was this also a commemoration, in Edinburgh tonight with this Drumhead whatsit?

    I don’t know about anyone else but when was the last time London EVER let any city in the U.K. hold celebrations, or commemorations?

    Surely all this sort of thing is designed around London. Westminster surely can not be trying to woo us upity Scots to vote NO in September. Nah they wouldn’t do anything like that, would they? 😉

  75. Thepnr says:

    Is anybody listening? Or still navel gazing?

    You can all answer for yourself. Nobody is sacred here, what is the point of you being here if not to fight for Independence? We have step up the ante.

    We have a referendum to win, how to motivate people to vote Yes? If you have an answer then share it.
    Time is short, navel gazing is pointless.

    Fighting?
    That’s what it should be about now, is that too aggressive to fight? Fuck Off, we are fighting for our sovereignty but it is unlikely we will die in doing so.

    I’m appealing to all Wings readers to up their game when it comes to their own situation. It’d be great if even one of you convert one undecided.

    It’s definitely worth a try if like me your ONLY goal is a more equal society. I shouldn’t have put that in Caps cos it’s not my only reason for voting Yes.

    I’m voting Yes for those that follow me, history will prove me right, of that I am certain.

  76. Croompenstein says:

    The “YES” commemorative song should be “The Green Fields of France”

    Written by a Scotsman, Eric Bogle. Eric wrote the song after visiting the war graves in France

  77. The Morgatron says:

    We do really live currently in a bad bad country , whos goverment use poor young lives lost still as emotional soldiers . How can they sleep?
    This has been staged managed for months and is lower than anything that was had went before.
    How many of our special forces have thus evening went into Iraq tonight? Warmonger Britannia.

  78. Lesley-Anne says:

    You’re sounding a wee bit grumpy tonight Thepnr. We all just come on here to *ahem* relax. Well at least that WAS the idea right folks? 😉 😛

  79. Tîm Criced i Gymru says:

    As someone from Gogledd Cymru (North Wales)who was born and bred and lives just a cricket ball’s throw from Llanelwy (or St.Asaph in English), I find that so poignant and again, a typical example of how the state has commandeered something for their own jingoistic use, back then in (in)glorious days of Empire… and now today amongst the dying embers of a truly shameful, navel-gazing, imploding, isolationist ‘call-yourself-a-democracy’ of a place. Decades ago it was a well-known fact that in the old Phillips’ atlases, most of the world was coloured the pink of the british empire, more’s the disgrace. Also, here in Cymru(Wales), general atlases published outside Cymru would have the footnote: ‘For Wales, see England’. Well, I have a forecast for them down south of the Watford gap … it might well be mildly Autumnal on Sept.19th, but the map north of the Tweed WILL turn distinctly BLUE! …and hopefully, someday before long, the map west of Chester and the Severn will follow a distinctly RED colour, and that won’t be just the setting sun of the Empire! Go for it ALBA – make it a stunning result that will make the world sit up and take notice and shake the very foundations of all that those selfish imperialists thought was ‘safe’ and ‘theirs’ to rule for ever and a day. We can’t wait …we’re SO excited down here, tinged with trepidation, I realize. You’re going to make me cry big time on the 19th… make sure it’s for all the right reasons!

  80. Faltdubh says:

    Thenpr, a terrific rallying call there!

    I 100% agree. I’m not in Scotland until the 14th – away for work, but those 3 days before the vote, I’m joining up with a Yes group and if it’s licking envelopes, folding papers etc I’m willing to do whatever. I just want to play my part.

    We can win this. Get out there and get speaking to folk. I was at a family BBQ on Saturday – 2 17 year old new voters were there, one was soft yes, the other stated off as a No “our NHS will go, we can’t afford it”.

    There was no shouting or drowing her out. I (plus another Yes voter) put our points across about the way the NHS in England is going, pensions crisis, and so on. She then said “Ok, send me some stuff. I want to read this”

    Today – I woke up to an e-mail asking me if I could send the links. I just have done that – One of Mr McKee breaking down the numbers, a Buzzfeed one of 20 young voters voting Yes and their various reasons for doing so, and a few bits of my own.

    An email back just there “WOW. Eye opening. Definitely not voting No now, Cheers x”

    Just think that one lass up to yesterday was voting no. I’m not taking credit for the conversion as a few others were there/Yes voters, but ONE PERSON convinced. Another vote come the 18th to Yes!

    We’ll do this folks. Get talking to people. There are lots of Nos out there, but every time I do a mock poll etc – I’m finding lots of encouragment at us getting a Yes vote – even going by the likes of Facebook profile pics, I’ve seen maybe 4/5 No Thanks ones, but 20 if not more of wee Yes/Bu Choir/Aye Twibbons.

  81. Robert Peffers says:

    I posted this before on here but won’t say sorry for posting it again. Tommy – the poem that gave the Soldiers of the Queen the nick-name Tommies.

    Tommy.

    I went into a public- ‘ouse to get a pint o’ beer,
    The publican ‘e up an sez, “We serve no red-coats here.”
    The girls behind the bar they laughed an’ giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an’ to myself sez I:
    O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy go away”;
    But it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins,” when the band begins to play-
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it’s “Thank you Mr Atkins,” when the band begins to play.

    I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
    They gave a drunk civilian room, but ‘adn’t none for me;
    They sent me to the gallery or round the music-‘alls,
    But when it comes to fighting’, Lord! They’ll shove me in the stalls!
    For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy wait outside”;
    But it’s “Special train for Atkins,” when the trooper’s on the tide-
    The troopship’s on the tide, my boys, the troopship’s on the tide,
    O it’s “Special train for Atkins,” when the trooper’s on the tide.

    Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep
    Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap;
    An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit
    Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit.
    Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy ‘ow’s yer soul?”
    But it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll-
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it’s ” Thin red line of ‘eroes,” when the drums begin to roll.

    We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
    But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
    An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
    Why single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;
    While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy fall be’ind,”
    But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir,” when there’s trouble in the wind-
    There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind,
    O it’s “Please to walk in front, sir,” when there’s trouble in the wind.

    You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
    We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
    Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
    The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
    For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck ‘im out, the brute!”
    But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
    An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
    An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool – you bet that Tommy sees!

    By Rudyard Kipling

  82. cearc says:

    Ex-Service,
    Siegfried Sassoon.

    Derision from the dead
    Mocks armamental madness.
    ‘Redeem (each ruler said)
    Mankind.’ Men died to do it.
    And some with glorying gladness
    Bore arms for earth and bled:
    But most went glumly through it
    Dumbly doomed to rue it.

    The darkness of their dying
    Grows one with war recorded;
    Whose swindled ghosts are crying
    From shell-holes in the past,
    ‘Our deeds with lies were lauded,
    Our bones with wrongs rewarded.’
    Dream voices these – denying
    Dud laurels to the last.

  83. Chic McGregor says:

    “All the Fine Young Men” also by Eric is worth an honourable mention too.

  84. caz-m says:

    STV are also complicite in this grand “Vote NO” WW1 celebration.

    We are not buying it Westminster Establishment, you will need to come up with something more convincing that this.

  85. Chic McGregor says:

    All The Fine Young Men

    They told all the fine young men of when this war is over
    There will be peace and the peace will last forever
    In Flanders Field, at Lone Pine and Bersheeba
    For king and country, for honour and duty
    The young men fought and cursed and wept and died

    They told all the fine young men of when this war is over
    In your country’s grateful heart we will cherish you forever
    At Tobruk and Alamein, at Bhuna and Kokoda
    Like their fathers before, in a world mad with war
    The young men fought and cursed and wept and died

    For many of those fine young men all the wars are over
    They have found peace, it’s the peace that lasts forever
    When the call comes again they will not answer
    They’re just forgotten bones lying far from their homes
    As forgotten as the cause for which they died

    Ah young men, can you see now why they lied

  86. goldenayr says:

    There’s an old boy in Pitlochry.Members of his family died in the 1st World War.He has planted a commemoration in his front garden to those who fell.

    Three lines of red,white and blue.

    He seen me looking and said”It’s in memory of our greatest allies,the French”

    I said “We owe them more”

    He smiled and laughed saying “Soon”.

  87. Clootie says:

    @Thepnr

    You came across a bit harsh there!

    I think we are all working hard and winning over a great deal more than one.
    Lighten up

  88. fred blogger says:

    my father in law was @ dunkirk, 50 yrs later he returned, walked alone along the beach and wept. he never said much about it. except there was no dunkirk spirit, only terror.

  89. call me dave says:

    Everyone I speak to when the WW1 stuff breaks into the conversation can see it for what it is, a wee nod acknowledges the fact that the establishment is at it.

    Folk are well aware of it, especially the older members of the public whether they are YES or NO.

    O/T
    I see Mr McLeish is having a go at the Labour party on NNS re:
    Currency Union. It’s a threat to the Scottish people to deny them a currency union.

  90. Morag says:

    Just listened to the whole of Morning Heroes on YouTube. (Funny, but I realise I’d have been in that performance if I hadn’t moved to Sussex in 1988.) I don’t feel any better but I do feel less ashamed.

  91. goldenayr says:

    Morag

    Shame is a weight we hang on our conscience to justify our decisions.

  92. caz-m says:

    Talking of wars, it won’t be long before “Ming the Warmonger” is telling us we will have to put ground troops into Iraq to hold back the evil forces of Islam.

    Watch this space.

  93. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Can’t find the tweet I saw earlier where the Scottish Office was bumming about Alistair Carmichael attending some War-fest, and attached a pro-No propaganda link.

    Cue much outrage…

    Anyone able to locate and link?

  94. Thepnr says:

    @Leslie Anne & Clootie

    Sorry my fiends, I wasn’t being harsh.

    Their is NO time to relax, the game is almost over. You can’t relax before the game is won.

    Fuck relaxing, seriously. Get the bit between the tteeth more like.

    I’ll relax when it’s clear one way or the other.

    Clootie my friend, I’m sure your hearts in the right place but I have to ask asre YOU doing ALL you can?

    Don’t criticise me, unless you take a close look at yourself first.

  95. Bean an Tighe says:

    Sorry O/T

    Does anyone know anything about the ‘Freedom convoy’ next weekend?

  96. Marcia says:

    Thepnr

    What were the public attending the Sea-fest saying?

  97. goldenayr says:

    Thepnr

    You sound like my co-ordinator.Doesn’t matter that I’ve been doing this for 40+yrs.

    I’ll do it for the next 40yrs if necessary.

  98. Jim says:

    Disgusting video, what the fuck is there to smile about.
    Let’s smile about 16 million people dying but maybe they were the lucky ones compared to the 21 million wounded, what’s not to smile about a missing limb, keep your chin up lad. Shell shocked, well, have a smile to yourself, wont cure the shakes or the nightmares but hey, you cant have everything.
    For my shame as a pre-teen, myself and some other kids used to mercilessly tease this old guy who used to go about wearing a balaclava and had a most extreme tremor throughout all his limbs until my Dad found out and leathered me upside down and back again explaining that the man had fought in a war which claimed millions of lives and this man was one of the survivors but at a cost as he had to suffer the effects of shell shock which totally destroyed his quality of life, not a man to be made a fool of but a hero who should be respected.
    He also told me about an uncle of ours that died in that war, just qualified as a doctor but had his life snuffed out before he could use that knowledge to help people.
    The pain of the leathering was nothing compared to the shame that I felt then and still do to this day.
    I won’t commemorate the beginning of a slaughter but I will raise a glass to it’s end and there is a place in hell awaiting those disgusting individuals who thought this would be a good idea!

  99. fred blogger says:

    OT
    something for later. JO LAMONTS BIG DAY OOT PART 3 other parts are also available, it’s on youtube, a must see!

  100. mr thms says:

    Please share..

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28705416

    “It’s six weeks to go until the referendum and, with the debate ramping up, it can be easy to lose track – but we’re here to help.”

  101. Truth says:

    @Thepnr

    What can we realistically do at 10 to midnight on a Sunday night except relax and exchange ideas?

    The exchange of ideas and thoughts is necessary for the cause also.

  102. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Nana Smith –

    The very one. Cheers.

    Silly old Scottish Office, putting Fozzy on the spot…

  103. Patrician says:

    This is Chomsky writ large:
    “its crucial value is that it diverts your attention from a question that does mean something, do you support our policy?”

    Don’t ask awkward questions, however, the people who visit this site know all the awkward questions and they aren’t afriad to ask them and do something about it by voting Yes.

  104. caz-m says:

    O/T

    Two separate staunch Labour NO voters I know are now on board YES voters and they are even putting up YES window posters and stickers.

    They said it was due to the right wing policies of London Labour. They have had enough of the ping pong politics of Westminster.

    It’s hard to put a figure on the amount of Labour voters who are now voting YES, because they are coming over to YES in their hundreds every day.

    Are you listening Johann Lamont.

  105. Thepnr says:

    @Marcia

    It was so much better than I expected. I will state upfront here and now that I was very wary of the possibility of severe abuse or even violence.

    However, just like the Wings meetings in Dundee, Galsgow and Edinburgh we were welcomed.

    I realise now more than I did before that the majority of the public is very much unaware. The great thing is that those that engaged with the Wingers at Seafest were more than 80% positive.

    That is to be expected though, however on a personal level I spent over the weekend speaking to two individuals for around 30 minutes.

    I won’t go into details to respect their privacy, by the end? I think they will go for a Yes.

  106. west_lothian_questioner says:

    What passing bells for those who die as cattle…

    Nothing in any of it to celebrate

  107. goldenayr says:

    mr thms

    Now that’s satire.

  108. Marcia says:

    Thepnr

    Good for you. The grassroots campaign need to reach out to those unaware at this stage of the campaign.

  109. Patrician says:

    @Thepnr you were slacking man, only 2 over the weekend 😉 Jan is claiming 8 just for Saturday, all of the mothers with children.

  110. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @caz-m –

    You can imagine Lamont, Davidson, Rennie, and their Westminster handlers, watching the blogs, getting updates from their people ‘on the ground’, and realising that they have no control over what’s happening now.

    The decision will be made by the people of Scotland, and no-one can change that fact. They are trying to affect it. They may even try to tamper with it. But they can’t make the decision on our behalf.

    That’s why they’re bricking it – they know we’re going to vote Yes, thus terminating their careers ‘with extreme prejudice’.

    Quelle dommage…

  111. Jim says:

    Just ask them, do you want continued free education for your children?
    Do you want an NHS free at the point of access or do you want to have the extra cost of health insurance because once the NHS is privatised then that is the only way you are going to get access to top class medical care also known as the American dream.?
    Free travel for your pension age family members or would you like to see them cut off from traveling anywhere because they cant afford to do that and feed themselves?
    Can they say no to that because that is what is coming their way in the event of a no vote.
    They liken it to a marriage, so, to use that analogy, your partner is going to cut your housekeeping budget and there is nothing you can do about it unless you take matters into your own control and use your finances as you see fit.

  112. goldenayr says:

    Thepnr

  113. Thepnr says:

    @Patrician

    That was the two hard ones, 25 year serving English born Royal Marine was first, I think he deserves a half hour.

    In fact I’ll bet he reads this that’s the job I done. 🙂

  114. Having been a soldier I would not recommend participating taking part or anything to do with war there is nothing to sing about glorify or remember except for the extremely brave and heroic men who were lied to into taking part All the grief sadness biterness of all the loss of the cream and flower of any country May we never forget thier

  115. Ken500 says:

    The absolute abuse of power.

    Three inbred royal cousins fell out. Victoria’s grandsons.

  116. caz-m says:

    Anyone else notice how Alistair Darling has been strutting about like a peacock all week.

    He actually believes all the hype about him beating Alex Salmond in that STV rant.

  117. Lesley-Anne says:

    Oh to be a fly on the wall at the monthly political party meetings when membership voting intentions are discussed. 😉

    I think we are now reaching the point where there people in Labour HQ and BTHQ running around like headless chickens. Surely it can only be a matter of time now before BBC and MSM are reporting a sudden rise in suicicide rates in the areas of Labour HQ and BTHQ. 😛

  118. Jim says:

    @John Gallagher
    I agree, total waste of life no matter what the war but that is the way the so-called elites like it. It keeps the population of the scum down.

  119. goldenayr says:

    Sorry pnr,computer glitch.

    Had an argument about targets in Perth town centre.

    I say,target those who you can identify as no or wavering.

    Others prefer to hit those already convinced because it makes them happy.

    It’s why I refused to join Wings for so long,there was to much clique backslapping.

  120. Jim says:

    @caz-m
    Don’t you mean “cock”, I think you added the pea in error?

  121. Lesley-Anne says:

    To be fair caz Darling always has been a bit of a peacock … the TAIL bit to be precise! 😛

  122. macdoc says:

    I remember 2 years ago when the independence referendum was announced that I got in an argument with a typical Brit nat.

    He used all his scare tactics in the discussion while I easily batted away all his scaremongering propaganda. When he realised I was politically educated and knew what I was talking about he said “that’s all very well but you will never win, we control the media”

    I wasn’t so sure and believed that once people heard the arguments independence would be unstoppabble . now I’m not so sure. We have won the arguments but unfortunately not the people. Alex salmond had his chance last week and completely blew it with a very lacklustre performance. The polls and bookies cant all be in one big conspiracy and all wrong. We are going to lose this unless something drastic happens.

    We aren’t too small poor or stupid but maybe we are too gullible.

  123. Jim says:

    @goldenayr
    I think we should be a bit more accepting of no voters that post here as I have seen them ripped to shreds just for giving their opinion, let’s convert them not vilify them!

  124. caz-m says:

    Labour voters are very soft NO’s and are ripe for turning over to a YES.

    Go out and get them, but be gentle.

    Offer them plenty of YES goodies.

  125. Thepnr says:

    @goldenayr

    My friend. You don’t “Join” Wings.

    You are or you aren’t. Think about it.

  126. Jim says:

    I do mean the no voters that genuinely believe that the UK is the best option, not the self serving ones that don’t care as long as the money keeps rolling in.

  127. Jim says:

    @Thepnr
    Iz you Iz or Iz you aint my baby?

  128. goldenayr says:

    And there goes this useless Windows 8 predictive pish again.

    Not finished.

    Since I did join,all I can say is “Thank You”

    We,as the grassroots movement can shout long and proud,into the history books,that we played our part and spent our sweat without spilling any blood.

  129. goldenayr says:

    Thepnr

    @1224

    Nothing to think aboot.

  130. Cactus says:

    Well said thepnr.. to maintain and increase our momentum, we’ve got to keep encouraging each other to grasp every opportunity to promote Scottish independence. So just like Alex Salmond did, we’ve got to come to the front of our individual podiums and engage with the voting public.

    Should Scotland be an independent country?

    (you could even simplify that to..)

    Should YOUR country be independent? Yes

  131. Lesley-Anne says:

    Forget the bookies macdoc, as someone said earlier tonight they massage the odds to suit where the money is going NOT who they actually think is going to win.

    In so far as the polls are concerned they will produce the results to suit their paymaster who just happens to be the MSM who just happen to be almost exclusively anti independence. It is therefore of no real surprise to anyone on here that all the polls are showing NO ahead, it’s all in the way they use the returns, who they include, who they leave out.

    Above all always remember they, the pollsters, have never carried out polls like this before. When they come to their mathematical calculations to generalise their results for all of Scotland they are unable to do so correctly, in my view. I say this because part of their *ahem* adjustments take into account how people voted in 201/2011. However there is one major flaw with this assumption. There are a massive number of voters who may have voted Tory/Lab/LibDem in 2010/2011 but are voting YES. The pollsters are unable to take these people into account! This is why I say ignore the polls they are WRONG! Listen to the people on here and at YES meetings etc, look at all the people listening to the speakers at YES events. There is no way in hell that we are behind. This is not an excuse to relax, we must get back out there and keep on working. It is only by doubling our efforts in these closing weeks that we can INCREASE the current lead we have but MSM are TERRIFIED to admit to. 😛

  132. Truth says:

    @goldenayr

    Tell those targetting the converted to at least get the converts talking to their families and circle of friends about it.

    Sometimes the yes voters need some help in converting others, so it’s not a complete waste of time.

  133. Paula Rose says:

    OI – o/t in O/T. Now, you have all given me a decent Scottish education. I want to learn more, please go to the play-room

  134. caz-m says:

    Ian

    I went to a Jim Sillars meeting last week and there was hardly an SNP voter in the place, it was Labour for Indy, SSP, Business for Scotland and Jim Sillars. The audience was mostly undecided Labour voters.

    The NO camp haven’t a clue about who is attending these meetings. They think that they are full of Scottish Nationalists looking for a bit of re-assurance.

    Oh, how the No mob are so badly misjudging the whole YES movement.

  135. Lesley-Anne says:

    I’m with you goldenayr. It is those who are undecided or soft Noes that should be the target. Targeting YES people is a waste of time and energy. What are you going to achieve other than wasting each other’s time. Better to ask the YES supporter to join the local group and go out on the canvassing to expand the reach of YES.

  136. goldenayr says:

    Truth

    I hear you and do.

    Too old for this game not to.

  137. Snode1965 says:

    If you think a week of WW1 celebrations has been unbearable. Yesterday scottish sun had centre page spread on prince Harry, from birth to his birthday which isn’t until next month. Pass the spew pale.

  138. thedogphilosopher says:

    Picking up on Thepnr’s point (10.58), the legacy of Westminster rule is that many people in Scotland have become alienated from politics in general. Even people you come across who seem quite bright and informed can have a real blind spot as to how the political system works (or doesn’t).

    If everyone in Scotland had a decent grasp of things we might have become independent years ago (like many other small nations in N Europe). How do you go to someone’s door, someone who hasn’t a scooby about who’s who in the debate, and convince them that you just happen to know best. Do you bribe them with a wee flag?

    To be in possession of the facts takes time. The Labour Party used to ‘weigh’ their votes based on loyalty through identity. They voted Labour because they WERE Labour. No great thinking required.

    Yes, there has been, and remains, an ongoing sea change away from Labour’s stranglehold in the cities, which will no doubt be decisive in the referendum.

    But getting agitated with people and twisting arms is not how it should be. I would like to think that in our new, free Scotland there will be an effort made to make sure the populace remains informed about politics and of political decision-making. I would also concur with Lesley Riddoch and others that the parliament should not become stuffed with party adherents only, and that there should be room made for those with no party affiliation. But perhaps I’m jumping the gun.

    Lots of hot air. But most democracies are built on the stuff.

  139. Lesley-Anne says:

    The NO camp haven’t a clue about who is attending these meetings. They think that they are full of Scottish Nationalists looking for a bit of re-assurance.

    Oh, how the No mob are so badly misjudging the whole YES movement.

    THAT uis why we are winning caz. WE know who are turning up to these meetings NO are running around like headless chickens. There are so many meetings going on they have no idea how to counter them all. Prime example was the meeting with Nicola Sturgeon in Greenock. The meeting was delayed because there were so many people wanting to get in to listen to her. They even got to the point that they asked ALL the people already voting YES to leave so that an undecided voter could get their seat and hear what Nicola had to say. Now can you imagine THAT happening at a NO meeting? 😛

  140. Jim says:

    What will we achieve then by attacking people that come on this site with differing views or is anyone with a differing view a troll?

  141. goldenayr says:

    LA

    Far to many of us think that by reinforcing the vote we’re doing well.

    Converted five undecided today,just by asking people with prominent position gardens,whether they’d accept a YES sign.

    All I can say is,the signs are up and it’s no longer something to be scared about.

  142. Paula Rose says:

    There is one – I’ve been searching through my memory cells for a poignant rendition of

    pack up your troubles in your old kit bag…

    and smile,smile,smile…

    Genuine ask to the experts.

  143. Truth says:

    @goldenayr

    Sorry, I knew you would be.

    It was more for the readers’ benefit.

  144. goldenayr says:

    Jim

    The only differing “view” on this site is unionism.

  145. Morag says:

    The thing about the polls is, they do publish the unweighted figures. It’s not all in the weighting. Either the respondents are lying to the pollsters (SS thinks they are) or the pollsters are deliberately not polling people known to be nailed-on Yes (some evidence for this) – this is a conspiracy theory of course.

    Or the pollsters are naively polling the wrong people (quite possible, given the way these online panels operate), or Yes really isn’t doing as well as all the other indicators suggest it is.

    I honestly don’t know what to think.

  146. Morag says:

    I meant to say, Donald Anderson, thank you for the poem at the top of the thread.

  147. Jim says:

    @goldenayr
    The only differing “view” on this site is unionism.
    ________
    So is it not in our remit to accept people with this differing view and persuade them as to why this is the wrong view to take?

  148. Thepnr says:

    @macdoc

    In my opinion, don’t you worry about Alex Salmond’s performance in the “debate”.

    This was not a debate, it was simply a case of setting out your stall. Do you get it? You show me yours and I’ll show you mine.

    FFS I’m really laughing that most of you could be took in by the “debate”. It wasn’t one. BT have now played there best hand, though their is still another card to draw..

    I laugh at all you duds who got so animated and despondent by the first debate. You got it so wrong and the Yes campaign admittedly with Salmond as a figurehead appeared to have fucked up.

    Hahahaha, don’t fall for their bullshit. Now Salmond has them NAILED on currency, for which our Daring chose to spend 9 minutes of his allotted 12?

    Why? They have nothing else, Salmond has kept his powder dry, the UKOK have shot themselves in the foot again.

    Now we are into the fight stage.

    Westminster???

    How Fucking Daft Do You Think We Are?

    Doesn’t really matter it seems as the word on the street, you know that what the polls don’t show says to me. A win for Yes. Put that in you pipe and smoke it Lord Of Fuckall.

  149. goldenayr says:

    Morag

    The point of that post is…?

    Or are you feeling left out?

  150. Lesley-Anne says:

    Well done you sir! 😉

    I’m not able to do much in the way of canvassing etc, but I do attend the local YES stalls etc. One thing we do have and is used on a daily basis is our battle truck. 😛

    Let’s just say NO ONE in and around Annan does NOT know there is a referendum in the offing nor have they any doubt about the way WE are voting. The truck is covered with posters covering all sorts of aspects about why YES is a good idea. We may not be able to speak to many folks one to one but by gawd I’m certain a lot of folks who see the posters go on their way thinking more about YES than they did before.

    One last thing. Just recently we have noticed more and more that a lot of vehicles we pass are flashing their lights and giving us waves as we pass each other. Up till now we used to look at each other and simultaneously ask “who the hell was that?” cause we never recognised them. Then the penny dropped. It was NOT us they were acknowledging it was the battle truck! 😛

  151. Paula Rose says:

    Thepnr darling, ssh dear there are people still awake.

  152. Morag says:

    Goldenayr, I don’t like you, that’s a given. But what the hell are you on about?

  153. goldenayr says:

    Jim

    You and I go way back online.

    Have I ever said that a voice is not worth listening to?

    What I have said,continuously,is we need one voice.

    And I miss her a much as you.

    But we are where we are,my children will carry the fight,not us.

  154. Patrician says:

    @caz-m

    Glad to hear about the meetings being packed with undecideds. That is one of the reasons I haven’t attended any of these meetings, for me it would be preaching to the converted. I am an independence supporter now, always have been as far back as I can remember and always will be until they pack me off. I would just be taking up a seat at the meeting that would be better used by an undecided.

  155. Paula Rose says:

    I hope you are all doing your best to support each other, nightie night.

  156. goldenayr says:

    Morag

    Don’t care.

    As long as you’re a YES,I ‘ll kiss your ….

  157. goldenayr says:

    Little toe.

  158. Jamie Arriere says:

    Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag and smile smile smile
    When your vital organs get blown through your arse, smile boys that’s the style…

    It’s a long way to Tipperary when your legs are lying in no-mans land…

  159. goldenayr says:

    Jim

    Sorry,thought you were someone else.

  160. Morag says:

    Been a Yes since before you were born or thought of. So don’t show up asking me if I’m feeling left out in that patronising tone and then refuse to explain what the hell you’re talking about.

  161. todayinscotland says:

    I heard that Help for Heroes only gives assistance for soldiers who are killed or injured in action so if you’re a poor squaddies who gets hit by a bus while on leave on suffering from PTSD then tough. Not sure if that’s accurate but it was a sergeant major that told me.

  162. Paula Rose says:

    @ todayinscotland – do some research and pleases show your sources. That will add to our resources.

  163. goldenayr says:

    Morag

    Strange thing…if you want to get angry?

    Choose those who are.

    I’m not because we’ve been doing this for 300+yrs.

  164. PeeGee says:

    Not noticed if anybody else picked up on this.

    Everybody (supposedly) has received at least one BTVNBUKOK propaganda brochures smashing us over the head with “walking away from the pound” “no uk means no pound” and so on.

    The FM has been all over the media, and under the usual sneering attacks for doing so, reminding everybody that there is nothing that can stop us using the pound if that is what we choose to do.

    All of the BTVNBUKOKers have been forced into admitting that this is true and are relentless in arguing against a currency union. But that is not what their leaflets and activists have been saying for the last two years.

    Everybody in Scotland, except for the usual labour voting glasgow morons, (no apologies. glasgow labour drones have poisoned Scottish politics for generations) has absolute proof that they have been lied to by the anti-Scots. Nothing they have told you can be trusted. Condemned out of their own mouths.

    There is some strategy involved. Hence the insane screeching attacks by the paid english astroturfers and spambots. They know they’ve been reamed sideways and by their own side.

  165. goldenayr says:

    PeeGee

    All vested interests discredit.

    It’s what’s discredited,and who suffers,that counts.

  166. Dan Lee says:

    @callmedave

    This is beyond a joke that proven lies can be put in such a document. Something needs to be done about this.

  167. Thepnr says:

    So, here’s a question?

    Who of you will step up to the plate in order to gain a fairer, mere equal an all round better country.

    When it comes to it?

    I’ll tell you this, get aff yer arse, cos I’m not gonna dae it fir yeh.

  168. Dan Lee says:

    @Thepnr

    I’ve volunteered to help on the Margo Mobile. Sent my availability a few hours ago.

  169. Rock says:

    Jim,

    “I think we should be a bit more accepting of no voters that post here as I have seen them ripped to shreds just for giving their opinion, let’s convert them not vilify them!

    Once posters claiming to be ‘No’ or ‘Don’t Know’ or pretending to be ‘Yes’ keep on repeating the same points despite being answered, it becomes quite obvious that they are trolls that cannot be converted.

    WOS does allow posts from No advocates openly criticising Yes. Contrast this with the unionist media where there is strict censorship of pro Yes comments.

  170. Rock says:

    Have the unionists finished their start of war ‘celebrations’?

    It is then time for Yes Scotland to start firing the powder they have been keeping dry all this time.

    The time has come for the final push for Scotland’s independence. It is now or never.

    Thepnr,

    “I’m pleading, stop talking and start fighting, do your bit as best you can.”

    Rest assured, Thepnr, Yes supporters here are passionate about independence and doing the best they can. No shameless ‘Proud Scot buts’ here.

  171. Paul says:

    Why are they sending this out if you are not already registered to vote then it is too late electors had to be so by May. This is just another propaganda sheet for bitter together I think most people can choose between just the two options it’s not rocket science. They are doing this precisely because bitter together has no activists and this is the state doing their bidding. The good thing though is most people will just bin it without reading any of it.

  172. Rock says:

    call me dave,

    That is the Electoral Commission further exposed as the unionist rogue it is, like the CBI and BBC.

    But the people of Scotland are on their own in their struggle for democracy and freedom.

    Have you noticed that not a single ‘democratic’ government in the EU, or in the world, has come out even midly in support of our right to independence?

    Many leaders from Obama downwards have seen fit to support the union but not a single leader has had the guts to say anything positive about Scottish independence.

    After independence they will all rush to congratulate and praise us.

    I have come to the conclusion that the SNP government in Scotland is the only principled government in the EU, and one of very few in the world.

  173. Rock says:

    Paul,

    The deadline for registering is 2nd September but they are not doing this to encourage voters to register.

    As you say, they are just using it as a cover to do Bitter Together’s bidding for them.

    The British establishment has many many more arms than an octopus. The Electoral Commission is yet another arm being used to thwart Scottish independence.

  174. Sandra Wilson says:

    Alternatively, do what I gave done with every piece of BT propaganda – send it to Conservative party HQ in a nice envelope with no stamp. Usually with a suggestion of where they might put their unionist, BT, posh boy rubbish.

  175. Ken500 says:

    Scotland has powerful friend in the US and Europe. Auld Alliances. 10%+ of the US electorate is of Scottish decent (the diaspora). Enough to swing a US Presidential election. The Scottish Gov is more in tune with the EU Commission than Westminster.

    The currency, the Crown,the EU are not game changers. After Scotland votes for Independence they will stay the same for at least two years, because it would be two years before any change could be implemented by a democratic vote. The SNP are right after Independence, Scotland will have the Pound, the Crown and be in the EU. The most popular choice.

  176. Ken500 says:

    Bookies verdict

    Before the debate YES over 55% – 6/1
    After the debate – 11/2

    Bets on YES increased after the debate.

    There are not a lot of bets put on the Referendum. People are unaware? especially in the south. The majority of bets as a percentage are going on NO in the South, (non voters ). That is why the odds on NO are shorter.

  177. bmc875 says:

    Disgusted. Furious. I served 23 1/2 years for this?

  178. Ken500 says:

    Obama is one of the most unpopular leaders in US history.

  179. bjsalba says:

    I think they do not have the public anywhere in the UK with them.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10636216/Army-Reserve-grows-by-just-60-despite-aggresive-recruitment-push.html
    Army Reserve grows by just 60 despite aggresive recruitment push
    The latest MOD figures show the number of Army reservists grew slightly at the end of last year, but fell overall in 2013.

    services.parliament.uk/bills/2013-14/nationalservice.html
    National Service Bill 2013-14 A Bill to provide a system of national service for young persons; and for connected purposes.

    The Bill failed to complete its passage through Parliament before the end of the session. This means the Bill will make no further progress.

    Will it be reintroduced next year?

  180. Grouse Beater says:

    Jim: I think we should be a bit more accepting of no voters that post here as I have seen them ripped to shreds just for giving their opinion

    You mean in the manner of Darling at Salmond’s argument, his ridicule reinforced by the press?

  181. Haggis Hunter says:

    O/T
    Spent the weekend in Strathdee, now known as Royal Deeside. Coming from Angus, I’d never seen a UKOK car sticker or No thanks poster. Strathdee, especially closer to Ballmoral is full of them with matching Range Rovers and Tweeds. I’m no inverted snob and take people for what they are regardless of money they have or have not, but they are a great advert for Belter Together. Also visited the No tent at the Tarland games and heard nothing but scare and fear. Did you know if we vote Yes England will cut the power lines to Scotland!?! Well apparrently so, so that means black out for London during east enders.

  182. Seasick Dave says:

    Wait a mimute…

    What do we have for a BBC news headline in Scotland this morning?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-28348683

    Figures reveal bed occupancy rates in Scottish hospitals

    By Marc Ellison & Eleanor Bradford

    Unfortunately for Ms Bradford, she couldn’t come up with much and a leading professor said:

    Professor Derek Bell, president of the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh, says Scotland is not alone in facing the associated issues of high occupancy rates and boarding.

    “Boarding is an international problem – I’ve visited other countries like Australia and boarding also happens there. It’s just part of what we do, and we know it isn’t right,” he said.

    “I think that in some senses Scotland is ahead of the game in the sense that it has recognised the problem.

    “People are looking at this, people are paying attention to it, and that means it’s likely we’re going to make a difference.”

    ——

    Still, big headline, job done.

  183. Graeme Purves says:

    Despite the best efforts of the BBC, the military ceremony on the Edinburgh Castle Esplanade was the dampest of Imperial squibs. Attendance was conspicuously sparse.

  184. Mealer says:

    A wee bit every day.A comment to a friend or colleague,or a word to a complete stranger.Remember,most folk want to believe we can be independent.A lot just lack the confidence after a lifetime being told we cannae.Softly,softly.A wee bit every day.

  185. Haggis Hunter says:

    Aye, thats right Mealer. Also the most common complaint I hear is there is not enough information. Its a game changer when they realise all media in Scotland is politically run from London.

  186. Seasick Dave says:

    Oops, sorry, wrong thread!

  187. heedtracker says:

    http://newsnetscotland.com/images/booklet%201.png

    Neutral Electoral Commision? These guys are running our referendum yet think they can send this to every household. UKOK corruption is just staggering. The whole neutrality con demonstrated by C4 news last night giving much if not all of highland NO voter’s views of little or none of the Yes voter in their long report. If the whole fraud does work, it wont stand for long.

  188. Rolf says:

    @Thepnr is right. If you haven’t already, search for your local group in the events section at the Yes website, go out and do some canvassing. If you’re new t it you’ll get teamed up with someone. It sounds daunting but really isn’t. So many undecided folk just need a little fact or fear countered here or there, or even just a little bit of encouragement to get them over the line to Yes.

    If all the hundreds of thousands of Yes-committed folks that read these pages do just one canvas session each we’ll win this. If they do two or more we’ll win hands down.

    It won’t be won by the next big debate or by online griping about the biased media.

  189. Paul says:

    The Electoral commission can’t be trusted to oversee that there is a fair result remember Glenrothes or East Lothian when 2 ballot boxes disappeared.

  190. Robert Peffers says:

    @thedogphilosopher says: 11 August, 2014 at 12:42 am:

    “Picking up on Thepnr’s point (10.58), the legacy of Westminster rule is that many people in Scotland have become alienated from politics in general.”

    Here’s a thought. I’ve been a staunch independence supporter and campaigner since a boy in 1946. Often being very much alone in those far away times. We old campaigners have been converting people, (and it was bloody hard back then). Like ripples from a small stone dropped into a still pond each person converted made the outgoing ripples grow bigger.

    So – here’s the point. This movement has been growing from very small roots in poor and rocky ground but they kept growing. Each root added another few roots and the root system grew stronger. Now there is a big and vigorous root system and the plant has pushed up into the light and takes sustenance from the Sun and grows bigger every day.

    The plant will soon flower, seed and propagate itself. Nothing can now stop it. Even if this referendum were to be lost, like buds nipped by frost, the plant is strong enough now and will flower again.

    So, “ Flowers of Scotland we are going nowhere. We are here to stay and Westminster cannot stop us now, at the very worst they can only delay us, but I doubt they can now even do that.

  191. Sinky says:

    O/T BBC and The Herald giving big licks to NHS patient throughput times in Scotland but no mention of the 300,000 ambulance passengers in England having to wait over 30 minutes before even getting access to the relevant A & E department.

    In this battle of ideas between Scotland and Westminster over two futures Scotland’s voters have a right to be informed of the alternatives on offer.

  192. heedtracker says:

    It’ll be much the same no matter what the result, monster Scotland, get Salmond, get Lamont/Labour back in, attack negotiations, savage Scottish peoples faith, expectations and confidence in self governing Scotland. BBC/press have built careers and made a lot of money attacking everything Scotland.

  193. Dorothy Devine says:

    From the Guardian September 2013,

    “The armed forces should seek to make British involvement in future wars more palatable to the public by reducing the public profile of repatriation ceremonies for casualties, according to a Ministry of Defence unit that formulates strategy.

    Other suggestions made by the MoD thinktank in a discussion paper examining how to assuage “casualty averse” public opinion include the greater use of mercenaries and unmanned vehicles, as well as the SAS and other special forces, because it says losses sustained by the elite soldiers do not have the same impact on the public and press.”

    That tells a dreadful tale don’t you think?

    Add to that the Wootton Bassett by pass and you have a governments respect for the armed forces in a nutshell.

  194. David Stevenson says:

    Can someone give me a link to the evidence of Scotland subsidising the Union for the last 33 years as me just saying this without knowing the source isn’t working in conversation with some people. Thanks in advance….

  195. caz-m says:

    Nicola Sturgeon,

    Independence Debate for North Ayrshire – tonight 7.30pm.

    Castlepark Community Centre, Irvine on Monday,

    Please tell undecided voters in the area to get themselves down to Irvine tonight.

    http://www.irvinetimes.com/news/kilwinning/articles/2014/08/11/506154-independence-debate-for-north-ayrshire–tonight/

  196. Hood says:

    David Stevenson,
    Have a look at this video by Ivan McKee

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W8cKHcZn60

    Also you should be able to find more info on Business For Scotland website.

    In the above vid the specific point you want is about 15 1/2 mins in but it is well worth watching the whole video.

  197. Juteman says:

    GMS Scotland. Nasty Scotland fining more drivers than the rest of the caring UK. There tactics are so obvious now.

  198. From The Mail online
    Mr. Carlos Ghosn CEO of Nissan UK has threatened to leave the UK if it leaves the EU with the loss of 6,ooo jobs in Sunderland.
    Tory mp Bill Cash Has accused Mr. Ghosn of being “a bully boy” and “scaremongering” and as the report came from the BBC it was a biased view from them.
    A dose of their own medicine.

  199. Quentin Quale says:

    WW1- total number of mobilised forces (all factions) 65 million, total killed 8.5 million, wounded 21 million, total casualties 37.5 million.
    Still smiling?

  200. galamcennalath says:

    @Quentin Quale

    Another fact I have heard about WW1 is that half of UK soldiers who died have no known grave. Obliterated by explosion, buried in a sea of mud, or temporary burial which became lost and permanent. Horrible.

  201. Beanstalk says:

    @David Stevenson

    Over the last 30 years Scotland has paid in 222 billion(in today’s money) more than the UK average.
    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2013/04/balance-sheet

    In 2011/12 Scotland generated 9.9% of revenue and received 9.3% of public spending in return.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-21684684

    Neither of these take into account Scotland’s massive defense spending.

    In the last 1 or 2 years, it’s evened up leading to the referendum. Although there is growing demand the barnet formula is scrapped, which would massively reduce Scotlands spending in future.

  202. I watched yesterday’s drumhead service coverage from the Castle Esplanade.

    They stuck to the good-old, long-established hymns of my childhood, while, I am proud of the discipline and courage of the British armed forces – if not the sense and good judgement of the politicians who run them.

    I am particularly proud of the bravery and discipline of our Scottish servicemen and women. And, after all, since the first duty of a government is the defence of a country, we will still need a Scottish army, navy and air force post-independence.

    I was, however, struck by the fact this event was held in Edinburgh, at this time. Call me a cynic, but, this was a subliminal pro-union stunt, in bad taste.

    I had to laugh again – the Queen arrived to open the recent Commonwealth Games in a Bentley, that company is now German-owned. Yesterday, the Lord Provost of Edinburgh, inhis role as Her Majesty’s Lord Lieutenant of Edinburgh, arrived in a German-built BMW.

    Aye, who won the bloody wars.

    Finally, we got a chance to hear Eric Bogle’s wonderful Green Fields of France – just about the best anti-war song ever written. So,it wasn’t a wasted day.

  203. tiderium says:

    that music video by magnum is about the british shooting deserters when they actually had shellshock. really puts into context the way the government wants to glorify the war.

  204. Arabs for Independence says:

    I spent more than 16 years in the Royal Air Force and the only action I witnessed or was involved in was in the pub on a Saturday night. However, apart from HM Forces getting a whopping pay rise from the Thatcher government I do not recall this level of jingoism, brave lads, heroes, best in the world sort of jargon that has become a daily occurrence.

    I do not mean in any way at all to belittle the bravery of any of our troops but I am a wee bit concerned that it is becoming or has become OTT (no pun intended).

  205. Muscleguy says:

    @Morag

    All those reasons, and that single issue referenda are notoriously hard to survey accurately. For eg they weight by party loyalty, yet remembrance of who you voted for changes with political loyalty often. ‘I’m X but I’m voting for Y’s policy here . . .’ type of thing.

    Remember YouGov trying to find shy Noes and coming up with shy Yeses instead?

    Then there are ‘dwellings of multiple occupancy’ where others may well be listening who may be of a different view to you and you don’t want a stushie of maybe you have both changed but not had the conversation. My wife and I are out with each other an disagree (but I’m working on it and she is at last engaging after refusing to discuss it, progress) but I can imagine other situations.

    But remember this, even for your nearest and dearest the polling booth is private place and you fold your paper to keep your choice(s) private. That is where such effects fall away and part of why polling in general is not a science and why referenda are so hard to survey.

    Even if we had to have two referendums in living memory of each other people don’t like to think they lost so using recollections of how you voted last time won’t be accurate for weighting the polls. People are contrary and they confabulate to self justify to themselves and others and that becomes orthodoxy.

    When a poll (Panelbase most likely) puts Yes just ahead, doesn’t have to be over 50% I will celebrate and shout it to the rooftops with you, but that’s politics.

    I think the big poll WM paid for and shared with BT found those shy Yeses and that a big proportion of the Don’t Knows are thinking about voting Yes. That is why they won’t release it, because it would demotivate the troops.

    Even if they know the cause is lost they will want to keep the troops at it. Partly because if they are busy pushing No they won’t be converting to Yes so the majority won’t be too large. Partly because demotivated troops convinced their cause is lost will not troop the polls. And partly simply to keep some sort of party machine intact for what follows.

    I further think that they are not bussing young activists up from Englandshire just to bolster things. They are using OUR referendum as a training ground for the future. Why wouldn’t you?

    We are winning, but we also need as big a majority as we can possibly get. It will reduce the scope for argument afterwards and lead to better societal acceptance. And we need to ensure we get the vote out which is why I don’t see some canvassing of Yes folk as entirely wasted. People need to feel someone is paying them attention. Nobody has chapped our door here in the Ferry. We send two Tories to the council, they get elected well before anybody else too. I haven’t spotted a single Yes poster in a window. I think No feel we are good to be left and Yes has put us last on the priority list.

    One thing I have noticed though: Yes stuff is hand delivered. Only once have I noticed that for No stuff, it usually comes with the junk mail delivered by the postman.

  206. Muscleguy says:

    BTW Stu the events are held this August because that is when the war started as you should know. Have you become so paranoid that commemorating events on their anniversaries looks suspicious to you?

    My Great Uncle was an Old Contempible. Went to war on his horse (Yeomanry cavalry, mounted infantry) and served right through France and then Italy. I know when the thing started an so should you. So snark at those things that need snarking at.

  207. donald anderson says:

    October has always been Remembrance and Armistice day, The start of the war has never been a hype. It was brought forward after the Referendum was announced. Many are sick of this jingoism after the Jubilee. Royal births, weddings and helicopter flights in khaki. If the London Olympics did not kill the goose that laid the golden eggs, the EBC control of the Empire Games helped to finish it off.

    No more jingoism and Yes to end it all.

  208. T222Deracha says:

    Lest anyone forget Alex Salmond stood up in the House of Commons and condemned the NATO bombing of Sebia. “Not in my name” he said. Perhaps all those folk who don’t like Alex Salmond should be reminded of his stand.

  209. T222Deracha says:

    Especially relevant since it has been proved terrorists from Kosovo DID harvest organs from Serbian prisoners!!!

  210. Helena Brown says:

    Muscleguy, as you are in New Zealand you are escaping the feelings of many of us. Yes the First World War started in August. Do we generally celebrate the start of a war. Normally you are so grateful that it has ended that you Commemorate it’s end. You also are unaware of the jingoism we are subject to. I think we are all aware of Cameron’s reasons for having this. I was surprised that other countries are doing so. Personally considering the outcome of that war which was the reason behind the next, you would think they would all hang their collective heads in shame. there is no disrespect to those who fought and in so many cases died. We in Scotland lost more percentage wise per population so I think you are jumping down Stu’s throat for nothing.

  211. Sir Basil Zaharoff –

    Turkish Arms Deale – reputed to be the richest man on the planet thanks to his involvement in WW1 and selling arms and munitions to every nation in that horrific carnage.

  212. Edward says:

    Muscle Guy
    Your Great Uncle was a ‘Old Contemptible’ serving in France and by your account seemed to have survived.

    My Grandfather and four Great Uncles served in the First World War
    My Grandfather was gassed and taken POW
    one Great uncle was wounded in action in France
    two great uncles were killed in action in France
    and another great uncle suffered trauma as well as dysentery serving in the Dardanelles.

    Every family were affected, most families have some relative killed in action.

    But what I find disgraceful and disgusting is the over the top twisting of what should be a sombre and respectful remembrance into a jingoistic celebration.

    It IS far too obvious that Westminster are manipulating the situation to get the country all wrapped up in the union flag.

    No one outside the UK is celebrating the start of the First World War. Most countries are remembering, but that’s it

  213. Morag says:

    Muscleguy, I hope you’re right. But it worries me that all the reports of people moving from No to Yes aren’t being reflected in the polling. Something’s not right and I don’t understand it.

  214. starlaw says:

    At eighteen years old I worked beside an old man of seventy six, he had served with the artillery in WW1 and told me of trying to speak to men being marched to the front on day two of the Battle of the Somme. He described them as being GREY with fear and unable to speak , he described them as ‘poor buggers shot if they go forward shot if they go back ‘ Oh What a Lovely War . . to best remember these men Vote Yes and rid ourselves of the arrogant class that sent them.

  215. chalks says:

    Morag, the polling methodology is now changing with every single poll….there are now no polls comparable with the last month’s ones…it’a joke.

    Why do you think that is? Why do you think Panelbase are now following the YouGov way, i.e. Keller connection….these polling companies are struggling to poll people, frankly, it’s made up numbers based on a very small sample of people…..I don’t mean 1000 people, it’s less than that due to the virtual upweighting of certain demographics!

    Either people are still not interested in the referendum or they don’t want to admit their preference.

    My mother in law is a staunch yes, but when asked she is undecided. It’s a particular scottish trait, we don’t like disclosing our political thoughts, I don’t mind as I am involved in it all and I believe the only way to convert is to talk about my belief in an Independent Scotland, but others are happy to let me do the talking, just because they don’t say it in public, doesn’t mean they don’t think the same way. The polling may well indicate a small No lead, but a friend in a high place within the campaign has said that a well known pollster has said there will be 800,000 people undecided on the day of the campaign….that is 20 odd% of the expected turnout(80%)

    We have 40% confirmed, they have at least 40%….based on liklihood to vote, we have a higher amount….yessers are firm believers in it, noers are scared.

    That will translate on voting day into things being very tight, but as they may have a slightly higher vote going for No, that also means they have a higher % of Undecideds from the total of 800,000.

    My message to everyone is to remain positive and upbeat, do not dwell on the negatives of a no vote, embrace positivity, undecideds have been spoon fed this bullshit for 2 years by the no campaign. Give them hope and belief and their vote will reflect that. (Not saying people don’t, just going by personal experience, I don’t like saying this will happen and that will happen with a No vote, I don’t like being negative, people must WANT CHANGE to make themselves better, not do it just because they are scared)

    Off out tonight round my town with a shitload of Your Choice booklets.

    Hope the rain stays off.

    Let’s win this.

  216. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Just bought my last Herald. Just hopefully read my last load of pish from Richard Mowbray. He has been Labour, Tory , LibDem and he is now a UKIP supporter. I have no idea why his letters are printed because they are without merit of any sort and there is never any response to them published.

    The Herald has been running a campaign against the Scottish NHS for several months

  217. Lochside says:

    This video sums up what the dysfunctional British State is all about: a happy clappy red nose representation of what was an imperial blood bath.

    Celebrate the beginning of the First War?..If my Grandas were still here, there would be a war alright!

    I’m of a generation that actually knew the participants and my grandfathers told me the reality: a charnel house of slaughter…no bravery just murder of innocent men by Imperialists and their sociopathic generals.

    Re. Hew Strachan, I publicly challenged this liar and imposter on his diminution of Scottish deaths in WW1.
    He is a a Unionist Little England revisionist and denies Scotland’s disproportionate losses….Strange that the Aussies and the Irish etc. can give to the last digit how many were sacrificed, but we’re still arguing about whether it was 70,000 (the ‘official’ figure up until the 1990s) or 100,000, or 150,000.

    A cursory glance at any memorial in Scotland’s towns and villages exposes the reality… a maelstrom of death. Why do lovers of the Union demean us so?

    Well what about the ‘Dunkirk Spirit’ 350,000 snatched from the jaws of the Wehrmacht’s advance..but only at the expense of the Highland Division’s extinction..fighting on to the end at ST.Valery days after the ‘little Flotilla’ had got the Brits off the beaches. Remember: England expects….Scottish Sacrifice. It has always been so.

  218. Jim says:

    @Grouse Beater says:
    You mean in the manner of Darling at Salmond’s argument, his ridicule reinforced by the press?
    ___________
    No, I mean ordinary no voters, not the silver spoon variety with too much to lose.

  219. Paul says:

    As I posted earlier privately Ipsos MORI are polling 60% yes 40% no. why they won’t reveal the true figures is anyone’s guess. I am heartened by the number of Yes posters that are up there are hardly any bitter together ones and independence meetings are packed with the majority coming out in favour of yes. we are nearly there.

  220. Jim says:

    @Paul
    Giving an unmanipulated poll would give too much impetus to the YES campaign, that is my take on it.

  221. Sorry to go ot but I was listening to radio London this morning and they were on about the people in Iraqu being stuck up a mountain with no food or water and they were saying we should recall parliament and maybe start bombing Isis not a word about gazza or the people there being murderd or being starved so it is alright to care about some but not others typical Westminster vote yes

  222. Achnababan says:

    Lots of apparent ‘bad news’ in the polls for Yes supporters over last few days, accompanied by the usual trumpeting from the BT mob.

    Initially down about this I have now joyously realised that we must be winning and winning well, because as a ‘NO strategy’ these headlines only makes sense if you are desperately trying to halt a landslide for YES

  223. chalks says:

    They are trying to break us.

    We have these moments at different times in the campaign….the push back will see us over the line.

  224. Jim says:

    Not to mention the story in the S.N about them taking a little Palestinian girl over to the Britain for treatment for a heart complaint. I am glad this girl is getting treatment but what about the ones that are labeling their bodies with their names because they want people to be able to be able to know which parts are theirs when they get bombed and those that have already died.

  225. gregor says:

    I see nothing to celebrate only something to mourn, how can these sick people be the leaders of the UK?
    UK no thanks
    Scotland YES

  226. Jamie Arriere says:

    There’s a far better World War One song that I’ll be singing as I walk to the polling station…

    http://www.ww1photos.com/Goodbye-ee.html

  227. vambomarbeleye says:

    May I direct readers to the poems of woodbine willy. Look for rough
    Rhymes by a padre.

  228. Iain (orri) McCord says:

    The lyrics are worth a little read.

    http://www.firstworldwar.com/audio/packupyourtroubles.htm

    Pack up your Troubles

    First Verse
    Private Perks is a funny little codger
    With a smile a funny smile.
    Five feet none, he’s and artful little dodger
    With a smile a funny smile.
    Flush or broke he’ll have his little joke,
    He can’t be suppress’d.
    All the other fellows have to grin
    When he gets this off his chest, Hi!

    Chorus (sung twice after each verse)
    Pack up your troubles in your old kit-bag,
    And smile, smile, smile,
    While you’ve a lucifer to light your fag,
    Smile, boys, that’s the style.
    What’s the use of worrying?
    It never was worth while, so
    Pack up your troubles in your old kit-bag,
    And smile, smile, smile.

    Second Verse
    Private Perks went a-marching into Flanders
    With his smile his funny smile.
    He was lov’d by the privates and commanders
    For his smile his funny smile.
    When a throng of Bosches came along
    With a mighty swing,
    Perks yell’d out, “This little bunch is mine!
    Keep your heads down, boys and sing, Hi!

    Third Verse
    Private Perks he came back from Bosche-shooting
    With his smile his funny smile.
    Round his home he then set about recruiting
    With his smile his funny smile.
    He told all his pals, the short, the tall,
    What a time he’d had;
    And as each enlisted like a man
    Private Perks said ‘Now my lad,’ Hi!

    Perhaps it just me but those lyrics are a little subversive to say the least. For a start if you’ve seen Sharpe’s Regiment you’ll get a bit of an idea about recruiting seargents.

    That not withstanding I’d be a we bit concerned about the kind of smile Perks had and whether it was the same when he enlisted as when he had at the end. Not to mention why he got to go back home. Although the taking on the enemy by himself gives us a clue. Think Comedian from Watchmen or even Roschart.

    this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi1dCBWQROw , gives a setting of the song that might be a bit closer to how those in the trenches saw it.

    Now if we had a more cynically or rough and ready version with a background of the horrors of war then we’d have a reply.

  229. Sorry to go on about these polls that keep puting the votes for no ahead but we know they are all manipulated lies ,they are comfort polls for the no side so do not be taken in by them it is their way of trying to keep the moral of the no side up but like all their other arguments they are only deceiving themselves no one else vote yes

  230. North chiel says:

    BBC Scotland ” propaganda” today really has been
    Nothing short of disgraceful. Continuing anti Scottish NHS stories from
    Eleanor Bradford ( using dubiously calculated bed occupancy
    Figures) . earlier Jackie Baillie given centre stage and final say
    On earlier statement from Niclola Sturgeon re food banks ( although
    Jackie probably wouldn’t miss donating a weeks shopping?) and at
    1635 Sec. Of state for Porstmouth allowed to prattle on unchallenged
    For ages re the currency.
    Shameful bias , far worse than “usual”.they really are becoming
    Desperate!

  231. Grouse Beater says:

    Jim: No, I mean ordinary no voters, not the silver spoon variety with too much to lose.

    If I find myself talking to a person who thinks the Scots too feckless to run their own affairs I treat him as the fool he is.

    If I find myself talking to a person who acknowledges Westminster is terminally corrupt and England very sick, yet somehow thinks a unified British Isles will deliver greater democracy I try to convince him otherwise.

    In that regard I can’t be any different from others of like mind.

  232. Is nothing sacred in the headlong rush for fame and celebrity? And no, tying this tosh to a Service charity’s name does not excuse it one iota.

    On my blog in June last year, I posited “Fuck it! Why not go the whole hog and let Stuart Hall out of fucking jail to compère a Jeux Sans Frontieres / It’s a Fucking Knockout-Style Corpse-Burying Competition? A shitload more of that happened on 25 December 1914 than playing of football.”

    http://logicsrock.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/sorry-but-this-takes-fucking-biscuit-ab.html

    I’m surprised this ditty wasn’t accompanied by Rolf ‘Kiddie-Fucking’ Harris on a Wobble Board.

  233. Iain (orri) McCord says:

    m.youtube.com/watch?v=3xZmlUV8muY

  234. hopper69 says:

    Just saw your post about fighting for independence at 10.58 yesterday.Have to agree.

  235. David Stevenson says:

    Thanks to Beanstalk, Hood and Griminish for the Union cash-flow links.

  236. hopper69 says:

    Sorry.Last post to Thpnr.

  237. James S says:

    A German perspective on indyref?

    http://pastebin.com/tYK4p4Ph

    There’s a translation on there too.

  238. ScotsCanuck says:

    …. by 1916 the two preferred ‘ditties’ were “We’re here because we’re here”, that’s the entire lyrical context repeated over & over … and “hanging on the old barbed wire”, which I can remember my Grandfather rendering. Type that one into any Search Engine and Commemorate the greatest mass slaughter in human history by the poor souls who went through it and the millions who never came back … then watch that vomit-educing schmaltz again … I swear that if there were any old boys left from WW1, they would use their bayonets on the producers of this tripe.

  239. bugsbunny says:

    Is her on the right, under the Blue part of the sign, Jackie Ballie?

    Stephen.



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