A tough call
Posted on
June 13, 2016 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
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13 06 16 14:56
A tough call | speymouth
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I see that we are also now suffering the Drip Feed Vow syndrome.
“Hey Scotchland, we’ll make sure you get more powers on [fill in the power you want]”
I’m glad I am just voting Remain and can (and have been) ignoring the entire media circus (except here obviously).
Post-truth politics.
Hey-ho, who cares about truth anyway?
Anyone genuinely surprised by this? Suspect worse to come.
That sentence linking the EU vote to the Orlando atrocity is disgusting…
Two “before”s in the one sentence scans terribly.
We’re all doomed……doomed I tell ye.
What would have happened if the referendum had never been called?
Would we have noticed?
Oh dang! Not that old armageddon chestnut?
Jumped the shark, the pier, the carpark…
Crikey, does the yookay really keep the West politically civilised, I would have thought it’s the other way around.
Regards the Orlando tradegy, to use that for political gain is stooping so low, the gits saying that must be at the centre of the earth right now.
The intensity of the scare stories and scale of the xenophobia being peddled by the unionists and their media is being ratcheted up by the day as we approach polling day.
I seriously doubt whether either side of the Tory party will be satisfied by the outcome of the result whichever way it goes.
Now that serial Liar Gordie Broonpants is on the loose i wonder when the hypocrite “Baron” Squidgyface Robertson will be dragged out to give his tales of woe about the EngExit and scare the Englander peasants back in their box just like he tried to do Scotland during the indyref.
Scotland is not in Europe just now playing football so why are England fans being described as British?
Remain’s TV ad’s got George Robertson chuntering away EUOK, followed by Prof Stephen Hawking. Its beyond laugh out loud plonking that unelected SLab buffoon next to one of the world’s greatest scientists but that’s UKOK politics for you.
I’m holding out for the space aliens invasion threat headline.
Last Scaremongering left for the first camp
To claim it:
A plague of Locus shall decend on to your
Lands and destroy your crops.
Starvation and death will follow along with
Strong Westerley winds. lol
Both camps are absolutely pathetic an
Intoxicated by the success of their scaremonger
Tactics that worked so well on the Scottish electorate.
Oh for genuine facts and reasoned debate
From s group of responsible grown ups.
Choices, choices. MMMMmmmm!!!!!!
In or out we don’t have much of a chance do we?
Both sides are as bad as each other and they are turning people off.
It’s like groundhog day. I think I’ve been here before.
I personally don’t watch the news or anything as I am sick fed up with the negativity flying around.
We don’t live in as peaceful a world as the politicians think and joe public are not stupid.
There is conflict no matter where we look, and be it in or out of Europe things will remain exactly as they are now.
America believed it was safe with the massive Atlantic and Pacific Oceans protecting her coasts when it went into Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Iran, Iraq, but as they have found out, terrorism in now home grown and they are NOT safe.
Europe is in exactly the same boat.
Is Leave.EU Farage’s mob or is it the official campaign?
The Establishment is eating itself.
Gus at 12.58
You’re dead right about the disgusting nature of linking in the Orlando atrocity. It makes me wonder who was actually behind the Orlando tragedy. The guy was clearly unbalanced, OK. But why and who wound him up? Was it really anything to do eith ISIS??? That phone call to some emergency line just before the shootings is very suspicious. And who stands to gain from ramping up the ISIS hysteria?
I have been following the arguments from both sides very carefully and it appears that we are damned if we do, and damned if we don’t.
Therefore I think we should have a third option of full fiscal autonomy from the EU, DeuvoMax, and this should prove to be more popular, or just add to the confeusion…
Fwiw I will be voting to remain for the good of Scotland-England can go its own way if it choses but Scotland wont be going with them!
The truth is that they don’t know the answers, No one can predict what will happen if we leave the EU.
That’s why they are reduced to down right lies scare stories and false promises.
We only have to see how Cameron stuffed when he put a referendum on the EU in his manifesto, he didn’t think for a moment that he would get elected and have to deliver it.
Can just imagine by the time 22nd June comes round, DodgyDave or Osborne will just come on the telly and scream, that’ll be it – they’ll be so worked-up we’ll seriously think their heads are gonna pop! Well here’s hoping.
T
Still 10 days of Project Fear II left to go, alongside 10 days of Project Dumb.
Make it all go away, please Rev.
I just want to live in a “minor entity in the north of Britain.” Is that too much to ask?
By the way, and just to be clear, George Robertson is a plank.
Another one of his unforgettable performances:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xm-nTYXmofc
How did that balaclava clad Russian Ultra ever manage to enter our country and join our Police force?
I’m waiting for Angela Merkel to come up with the ‘Vow’ that if the UK votes to stay in the EU, she’ll bring in new legislation to curb immigration.
Very close to call on the referendum. I’m voting Remain since I don’t trust Boris and Michael Gove with my working rights. Plus, I really want to wind up the Winston Churchill Daily Mail tendency with a decision to Remain!
Indyref 2 anyone?
J
The shark has well and truly been jumped (whilst juggling knives).
Nice to see Leave take a leaf from the Trump book and keeping it classy.
Project Fear worked with the Jockos because for 300 years they have been institutionalised into thinking their country is 2nd rate. It won’t work with the English who daily are told by the BBC and the MSM how exceptionally wonderful they are.
Buy your Euros now!
I found a wee bee in my shower this morning and put it back onto the flowers outside but I’m really concerned this is the start of an EU plague
Can the politicians put my mind at rest please or do I have to call Kaye for the BBC truth
I know I can depend on them
Finding it harder to stay attuned when all I hear are arguments and politicians shouting that my monster’s bigger than yours on the EU referendum. The blatant lies coupled with inadvertent truths that slip out are interesting though. 🙁
Gove on new powers on immigration and CMD on the Norway and ‘not’ Scottish oil are examples.
IMO is just a conservative blood bath we have been invited to take part in.
‘Scottish’ labour in Fife been out with a stall and leaflets the last two weeks in Glenrothes town centre. Also a there was a ‘remain’ event in the Rothes Halls.
I’m for remain, have been before Sturgeon said so and before the Great Gordo decided to trample onto the stage.
Must be getting paranoid too, like some others on the site, as I realise today I’ve watched ‘The conversation’ the ‘Parallax View’; ‘All the President’s Men’ and also ‘3 Days of the Condor’ in the last week from my DVD collection. Geez! 🙂
Not long to go now.
Are the 500 million from the European mainland massing on the French coast to invade us going to arrive before the 60 million from down South come up here ?
I’m voting to remain .. end of story
I see that ISIS are now claiming the Orlando killer as one of their own. I’m not so sure he is. He seems to be mad as a hatter and groups like ISIS tend to avoid people like that.
But whether connected or not, ISIS play into Trump’s hands. Trump was already frothing based simply on the bloke’s name. If he can connect it to ISIS in the same sentence, his supporters are ecstatic.
So we have Trump, ISIS, and now this scabby EU story; all trying to jump on the back of the Orlando story. Politics is a scummy business.
So we have no terrorists in the UK? If your born British life is so grand that we don’t have home grown terrorists. It’s only the terrorists from Europe we have to fear. So leaving the EU will protect us from those ferangi terrorists. Aye right!
If you want to be terrorised vote leave and just see what the jolly tories do to you.
For the love of god vote REMAIN.
Does anyone know if we are getting exit polls on the night of the vote? If so are there going to be separate polls for each of the countries? Or is it going to be ‘one’ big exit poll for the ‘UK’ vote?
(I can’t even bring masel’ to comment on the madness (just before I comment on the madness), it’s so old hat…armafuckingeddon makes it the penultimate klaxon on ma bingo card. I’m just waitin’ for the announcement that ‘Britain’ will not be safe from the Aliens from Space (who are just waiting in the wings to see how the vote goes before launching their attack) should Brexit happen…then I’ll shout Bingo and claim my 5 ScotsGroats from Praise be her name, Nicola Sturgeon.)
Wonder if there will be some power cuts down south, like there was in the lead up to Scotland’s referendum.
Someone mentioned cameron having the EU referendum in his manifesto. They rarely stick to what they said in the manifesto in UKok, so it must have been more than that to make this all come about.
Just been reading about Venezeula, being played once again by the US, even some basic food items were in short supply, until their right wing government were elected recently, but reappeared the day after the election, funny that. Called the country an economic basket case, to take control, easy peasy. Lots of oil…
I have been reading WOS from my home in NYC for several years and it is consistently brilliant. As far as I can see, it is the only entirely dependable source of news regarding the struggle for liberty coming from your part of the world.
It is difficult for me to sort out the Brexit debate but whatever Nicola Sturgeon says is right for Scotland is good enough for me.
Thank you for this wonderful website, Rev. Campbell.
I was a in but now I’m voting out to see the world come to an end
‘Leave’ is in the lead and the numpties must be visualising the UK out of Europe and Scotland out of the UK. No access to the single market, no access to Scotland’s many resources and a poor turn out to the Sir Rod Stewart event …. Rod singing ‘Sailing’ as the subs head back across the Atlantic. End result a wee, poor and stupid England.
Wee in geographical area, poor due to the aforementioned and stupid due to their many actions over time not least of all, latterly, the treatment of our 56 SNP MPs at Westminster, introduction of EVEL and the smug, superior attitude of hundreds of Unionist politicians skittering in from bars to vote down every last Scotland Bill amendment. I bet they’re, especially smart erse Mundell, wishing they could turn the clock back. But no. Too late now. Tick, tock.
I wonder if the Establishment ever takes a long look at what they have unleashed in the world and regrets it? Terrorism in al its forms is the curse of our modern time.
Are the states of anxiety and fear that have been created by Governments and perpetuated by MSM finally coming home to roost. Government advisers seeking to win an election have inadvertently opened Pandora’s Box.
Negative campaigning and dirty tricks have evolved into a full on assault on the electorate. Lynton Crosby and even Blair McDougall all have to take some responsibility.
If ever there was a time to look at reality versus imagined horror it is now. We have seen a version of it in Scotland but Brexit (and Trump) are bringing a whole new level.
I hope rUK sees through it all.
Has Jakey made a pronouncement yet? Any word of Dan Snow?
Very much doubt there’ll be official exit polls. If they could manage it there wouldn’t be any regional breakdowns either.
“Has Jakey made a pronouncement yet? Any word of Dan Snow?”
Greannach, I have a word FOR Dan Snow but Rev says I can’t use it.
The Broon is making FUVE Vow promises today. I may be voting remain,. but I despise both sets of jingoistic liars.
Please don’t let Gordon Brown shout at me again.
I always seem to get it wrong!!!!
I reckon every ‘nation’ in the UK will actually vote to remain, but a lot will depend upon turnout. Either way, I think a lot of people will be surprised by the relative similarities, north and south of the border. In other words, don’t expect a huge % divide between north and south in voting paterns!
Just don’t hold-out for IndyRef2 on that back of this vote. It isn’t going to happen anytime soon. Even if we do vote in while they vote out…
This is a UK vote and there will only be one UK result, regardless of how we might like to think otherwise.
@ Philip Maughan 1.39
I am waiting for that. The vow.
And if there is a vote to stay team GB will get absolutely nothing. They will be told ‘you voted for it, knew what you were voting for and can now suck it up’. They will have minimal influence and there is going to be a huge festering wound in rUK that is going to change the face of its politics.
What goes around etc.
Greannach, Jakey is front and centre in the Herald headlines, have a quick look at Wings twitter.
https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/742335346617274369
Note, I think Stu isnt best pleased…
Rancid The Graun’s live update is usual devil in detail time
EU referendum live: Brexit could eventually lead to downfall of western civilisation, says EU chief
then
European council president Donald Tusk says Brexit could eventually lead to “the destruction … of western political civilisation in its entirety’. Photograph: John Thys/AFP/Getty Images
Its a bit weird conflating western political civilisation and western civilisation and rancid’s not a tabloid apparently. Crash Gordon’s in EUOK action again and that nutter’s wrought havoc across the middle east with Westminster’s version of western political civilisation. Same maniacs have Trident.
Col says:
13 June, 2016 at 1:15 pm
Scotland is not in Europe just now playing football so why are England fans being described as British?
Where are they saying this, just did a google news search of this an got no returns. What is your source?
Usual UKOK The Graun boost for even more UKOK mega whoppers
“In an interview on BBC Scotland’s Good Morning Scotland, he said “it would be for Scotland to decide” how many immigrants it admitted to the country in the event of Brexit. Asked how many immigrants could come to Scotland, he replied:
It would be for Scotland to decide. Because, under any proposals we put forward we believe that a points-based immigration policy, similar to the one that was actually put forward as a model for an independent Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon, would be the right approach.
Holyrood would be strengthened if we left the EU. The Scottish Parliament would have new powers over fishing, agriculture, over some social areas and potentially over immigration.”
Might win over NO voters but cant see Gove and BBC style bullshit fooling YESers. Exact same Westminster totally reneged on their The Vow devo-max, federal UK shyst, why would they suddenly give up immigration powers to Holyrood? Niceness?
2014 UKOK kept saying Scottish independence would mean armed border check points at Berwick, to stop uncontrolled immigration into England and now exact same toryboys say Westminster are giving controls away.
Crash should do an Embro festival comedy show.
“He is now talking about the 1980s, and Jacque Delors. He says he went to meet Delors when he was president of the European commission and Delors said Margaret Thatcher hated him for eight reasons: because he was French, a socialist, a trade unionist, a bureaucrat, a pro-European and and federalist.
(Brown leaves out the other two reasons.)
9m ago
15:18
Gordon Brown is speaking now.
He is not speaking from a text and it’s quite a discursive speech, with lots of anecdotes.
He is currently talking about when Labour first tried to join the common market, and George Brown’s drunken exploits on the continent.
As should oor Laura. If Crash is such popular guy, how come he didn’t have the balls to stand for election in Fife, after Project Fearing the living shit out of Scotland?
— Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak)
June 13, 2016
People were queuing in rain to hear Brown, lots of affection for him here even if you don’t always hear it!
OPEC announced today oil will stabilise to around $80 a barrel by this years end
OPEC says UK attitude to North sea oil is ideological, I’ll just let that one sink in
Sir Ian Woods receives another gong for services
The BBC says Scotland’s fucked just because it is and that’s what they were told to say at least 39 times a day until all hope of a normal functioning country is abandoned
Jakey cried, as she trolled it was all about Meee and Harry Potter, See, and you thought Donald Trump was bad
How come the mad baskets with the guns always pick on folk that haven’t done anything bad when we’re surrounded by real Idjits !!
if brexit
the EU air force might have to bomb heathrow ???
@heedtracker –
Secure hospitals all over the planet contain poor deluded souls who stride back and forth every waking minute, muttering gibberish.
Right here in Blighty, people queue in the rain to see one performing ‘live’.
They need to get a life, almost as much as GB really needs to shut his juddery cake-hole and fuck right off.
BREAKING NEWS
Germany and France could bomb Heathrow and Gatwick upon Brexit.
Sure I heard that before somewhere (sniggers).
BBC live broadcast all of Crash Brown’s anti Scottish Independence speeches at Scotland 2014, previewed, lauded, fanfares across their network, told us to shut it and listen to the great man of teamGB and all in their entirety. Yet same BBC creeps not showing any of latest Brown’s EU intervention speech, despite Laura Keuensdberg listening in awe to the great man himself.
6m ago
15:47
Brown is now talking about Nelson Mandela.
And we are getting to the Amy Winehouse anecdote – which anyone familiar with a Brown speech will have heard before.
It still works; the audience like it.
Hilarious. When in doubt, golden oldies.
O/T Is there something political on in Glasgow today? Leaving this morning from Glasgow airport after a short visit ( feeling sad) spotted Newsnight guy, Evan Davis arriving followed by ( 90% sure it was) Adam Tomkins and Toby Young. Looking very cosy together I might add.
Can I say that when I recognised these political folk It crossed my mind that it was quite sad that I did recognise them. I can safely say it’s all down to this website and how politicised I now am. Thanks Rev…I think?
Does Crash ever consider why Brexit is so popular in the once great Labour English heartlands? Another hideous Bliar/Brown legacy
10m ago
16:02
Q: [From the Mirror’s Ben Glaze] How can you reassure Labour supporters worried about immigration that their concerns are being addressed?
Brown says it is important to fund services better in areas that are affected.
He says he does not live in London. He hears people’s concerns.
But it is also important to tackle illegal immigration.
Reads EU warnings:
*screams*
Good Brexit thing in FT tpday on the reality of the red tory Brown’s legacy for England
“White British” made up 94 per cent of Birkenhead’s population in the 2011 census. However, some locals fear an influx of asylum-seekers, who they believe would compete for housing and jobs. Mr Field says that if there is a large televised stampede of migrants trying to enter the EU, “then it’s all over” — the Brexit vote would win. Ms McLaughlin agrees that immigration is a big local issue, and says: “I’m almost afraid to go out and stimulate the votes in my ward, because I think that if they do come out, they will vote to leave.”
Her theory is supported by a YouGov poll from March, which found that over 60 per cent of the lower social classes C2, D and E back Brexit. However, as YouGov points out, while the “Remain” campaign may struggle to get young pro-Europeans to turn out, the “Leave” campaign faces the same struggle with working-class Eurosceptics. Ms McLaughlin says: “I do think the biggest vote in Birkenhead will be stay at home.”
GB could pursue a second career as a stand-up doing wry observational stuff:
‘You know that thing when your ex-flatmate becomes a world leader and starts an illegal war? Yeah, that thing…’
That’s the great thing about not watching any Yoon TV news or reading any Yoon papers, you’re oblivious to all this shit.
Scarily, “jumping the shark” is not the puncturing moment of popular conception.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHCBw1WfTfY
Happy Days!
The rumour in Westhills is that if we remain in the EU Aberdeen bakers will be forced substitute olive oil for butter and lard in their butteries.
“This is getting serious” says Aggie fae Echt.
Rev had this retweet on his twit feed earlier, I think it kinda explains the ‘how’ of why these shysters like Brown get away wi this shit…it’s also funny (which he isn’t 🙁 ).
‘Thought Leader’:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZBKX-6Gz6A&feature=youtu.be
Must be time for the alien card to be played lol. It worked as part of project fear 1. They must think we’re all stupid.
I know Putin will be ecstatic if we Brexit, but has the invasion by Russia been dragged out of the minging bag of tricks yet? That’s a personal favourite, recalling Ruth’s quivering mouth and damp eyes.
On Orlando, I see Da’esh were quick to claim it, and it may or may not be true. It may be true because no one has acted to stop on line radicalisation, it may be untrue because the guy appears to be well known to the security services but can buy an assault rifle anyway. He bought a Glock 2 weeks ago.
Obama’s legacy stinks, all empty rhetoric, history will not be kind to the Nobel Peace prize winner.
They didn’t do anything after Sandy Hook, why would they bother now?
Remember it was Scotland’s grieving parents that didn’t stop, until gun laws in this country changed.
Paraphrased … vote leave to prevent an extremist attack in the UK.
Firstly, using Orlando for political point scoring is disgusting, disgraceful. If that’s typical of Leave campaigners’ attitudes then they are not nice people at all. Perhaps we already knew that.
Then, are they really trying to tell us a BrexitUK is not going to stride the world stage on US coat tails, spreading havoc and destruction, pissing off millions, and attracting extremists’ attentions … just it has been for the last decade or so?
Do they expect us to believe foreign policy to change totally?
Nae chance, a Brexit UK will be an even bigger bully, abroad and at home.
Yessers have the advantage.
We have been through all this guff already. Water off a ducks back.
I, for one, have always known that I would vote in favour of our European Community. Regardless of the utter tripe coming at us again.
Linking the heartbreaking murders in America to this debate is low. Very low. Those folk taking advantage of tragedy should take a long hard look at themselves and hang their heads in shame.
I think that picture at the top of the two policement is actually a negative: I’m convinced it’s a picture of two pandas.
Of course where there isn’t really an issue with immigrants but people believe there is, then if there is a EU exit, the leave camp newspapers can stop pushing the fake stories, and the leave camp can then claim they reduced or stopped the immigrant ‘problem’.
Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad.
End of Empire in sight maybe.
I’m IN, after Indy I may or may not reconsider depending on how things go.
Indy is an all important first objective to making our own choices.
Cameron, Brown, Farage and Johnston can just fuck off.
I’m confused about Europe.
I mean, I absolutely want us to stay in, no question, but yet I’d be equally happy to taser someone from Brexit as someone from Remain, just for coming anywhere near me.
Merkel will be telling us to do our Wurst, Hollande will be telling us on our own Pate be it, Mattarella that if we leave we won’t get a Pizza the action, Rajoy to turn off the Tapas we leave, Rutte that it’s a shoarma about that, then there’s …
Macbeda says:
End of Empire in sight
maybe.There, sorted 😉
@me at 6:09
{failure}
The ‘maybe’ was meant to be scored out 🙁
1st option IN
2nd option Out
3rd option appointment wie Digitas.
Ah wid take the 3rd option but they basterds in Westminster an HoL probibly hiv shares in it.
galamcennalath says:
13 June, 2016 at 6:09 pm
Macbeda says:
End of Empire in sight maybe.
There, sorted ?
I was thinking that earlier.
The civil war the Tories are having is not going to stop in a hurry and they won’t be happy until Boris the Blunder is in No. 10 and Cameron out whether it’s in or out of the EU.
Labour have obviously decided that suicide is the best option as it worked so well in Scotland so they roll out Broon and Corbyn to do as much damage as possible in the last days of the Empire!
A bigger worry is a snap General Election and a possible low turnout from an already jaded electorate.
Odds on Dodgy Dave & Co invoking a 60% rule for Leave a few days before the ref?
Unleashing Gordon smacks of desperation… we really are heading for the door.
Don’t these knob-ends get it? A ruling class running the show in my lifetime has been responsible for the destruction of almost all heavy industry, privatising our nationalised industries, selling our gold, enriching the elite endlessly at the expense of the poor resulting in one of the most unequal societies imaginable… squandering our resources instead of looking to the future.
Whether you are looking at it from a UK perspective, an English perspective or a Scottish perspective most people want some form of radical change. The union is fucked and we are now staring at an exit to the EU and (whatever you’re thoughts on it) an uncertain future. God knows how others in the EU perceive the UK now- arrogant, xenophobic right wing arseholes who hate everyone.
All of this is down to the ruling class of the last 40 years and Gordon has played as big a role as anyone in that process. He and his ilk did this. Its on Brown, Thatcher, Cameron and Blair.
And this is the great white hope for a Remain vote? Scotland was meant to be leading the UK when we didn’t leave it in the world according to Gordon. Now we are voting Remain to lead the EU? What fucking planet is he on???
Wings Over Scotland Retweeted
Nicola Sturgeon ?@NicolaSturgeon 7h7 hours ago
Politicians who opposed Indy now pretending that #brexit is great idea because it will give us powers of Indy probably shouldn’t be trusted!
405 retweets 562 likes
Or as they say in America, why are these lying bastards lying to us now?
1st option IN
2nd option Out
3rd option Shake it all about
It’s been one of those days.
Gfaetheblock says:
13 June, 2016 at 3:15 pm
Col says:
The EBC was still calling English Thugs as British fans on the EBC News at One today. Oh and referred to English Thugs making Court appearances in France as “BRITONS!
However the TV wasn’t mine to axe!
Inderef2: What about the HOKEY COKEY?
According to some tweeters Jakey is crying her eyes out and overcome with grief because a young man who worked on a Harry Potter ride has been killed in Orlando. Is this another attention seeking moment or am I wrong this time? No doubt this will cost me £10,000 towards her favourite charity. Sorry your better togetherness, I haven’t got a pot to piss in.
@ Liz.
There’s certainly a precedent for it.
Another display of UK hacks in action from rancid The Graun
One headline
“Wales’s head of security: French police knew about ‘group of Russian thugs’
And another
“Five England fans jailed in connection with Marseille violence at Euro 2016”
Why Graun’s got Russian thugs and English fans, is another UKOK mystery.
Inderef2,
Danish Premier Rasmussen will tell to get back to the drawing Smorgasbord, the Irish Taoiseach will get his Enda way, the outgoing Austrian President will have 57 varieties of Fischer to choose from for his Dinner, and the Swedish Premier will have his Lofven with butter and jam for his tea.
So Outlander is looking to be around as a series for the next 10 years, filmed in Scotland, with Scottish actors and irrespective of ‘pin point’ accuracy in the telling, a tale about Scotland’s History…and it’s not on our terrestrial TV screens why?
It is accessible I know from Amazon Prime or Prime Video (where at least you can pay the monthly fee and can cancel your account when you feel like it rather than pay the 79 quid or so for the year), or you can catch it on Couchturner or Showbox which are essentially torrent sites.
But that’s not the fucking point is it? Why haven’t the BBC1/2/4 or even STV picked up this series? It’s our fucking history, the revenues alone that are being pulled into Scotland with this series are not a pittance, it simply defies logic and even business sense why this series is not being shown in our country!
But it makes complete sense if you know that by broadcasting this series you are playing into the hands of your enemies.
We need our own counter-propaganda. Outlander and Braveheart have a big part to play in engaging those not turned on by politics in their own country but can be reached viscerally by the power of ‘entertainment’.
Jeez how d’ye think the Americans managed to brainwash their population so effectively wi Hollywood being the chief propaganda vehicle in disseminating the ‘how the West was won’ narrative that prevented generation’s from even understanding the slaughter of the indigenous people’s by the ‘white man’?
People who buy Outlander should be making copies of the entire series 1,2 and 3 on a big enough disc…and those copies should be disseminated wi the Wee Black Book…surely there are other ideas out there to figure out ways to exploit this to our advantage?
(Really pissed off….Glasgow)
http://archive.is/yumGh
Iain More: the narrative now, as spread by the likes of Pravdasound4 , is that it was them pesky Ruskies wot done it. That nice Home Secretary lady was really pouring it on at tea time.
A lot more of this nonsense to come. And those English lads only went to Marseille to perfect their accent, too.
Sigh.
Here come the Vows. We will get them from both sides no doubt following Gove claiming we will get to control immigration in Scotland if we vote for Leave.
Aye Right! There is no danger of them giving Scotland the right to refuse entry to Naw voting Tory canutes ever. Still waiting for the most Independent powerful Parly in EU BS from the Stay camp. Unless I missed it that is!
Hi K1.
Outlander, both Series 1 and the current Series 2, can be accessed here:-
http://www.couchtuner.ag/watch-outlander-online-s/
If you use Firefox and have the “Video DownloadHelper” add-on installed, you can download the episodes to save and concoct your own DVD’s. I have Series 1 on two DVD’s and am currently saving Series 2 as the episodes are uploaded every Saturday. (I guess it’s being shown on Fridays in the US.)
I dont know which I am more scunnered with, Euro ref. or bloody football.
heedtracker
Was I imagining it or were England fans rioting for 2 days and 2 nights before the Russian headcases arrived?
I have been hearing the BBC pushing the “Russian ultras” angle like mad along with, as expected hearing all about heavy handed French police. Introspection and condemnation of their own- not so much.
No wonder this features at almost every major tournament when the TV, the press and the England set-up itself perform the role of apologists. What was to stop Rooney from strongly condemning the hooligan element within their own support? Or Hodgson?
The last thing the French need during what is still a state of emergency are a bunch of boozed up hooligans destroying their city centres. I would like to see Nicola offer the French the services of Police Scotland’s finest to help police the tournament- in the spirit of EU cooperation of course
@K1
outlnbder was stopped for terrestrial broadcast by David Cameron in a deal with Sony Execs. Or at least it was certainly discussed and still No Outlander.
This was partly exposed by Wikileaks.
Google Cameron + Sony + outlander
eg.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/david-cameron-v-outlander-pm-met-sony-execs-stop-scottish-rebel-drama-before-referendum-vote-1497534
And it hasn’t been on main TV channels since.
Tam Jardine says:
13 June, 2016 at 8:07 pm
heedtracker
Was I imagining it or were England fans rioting for 2 days and 2 nights before the Russian headcases arrived?
I know. UK press is basically upper middle class twits and very Britnat as we know but they’re doing England no favours here. It looks like there’s a lot more trouble this week so get ready for more of their, England fans v Russian thugs nonsense.
Hi Tam Jardine.
You typed,
“I would like to see Nicola offer the French the services of Police Scotland’s finest to help police the tournament- in the spirit of EU cooperation of course”
Brilliant! The Auld Alliance! One of our recent badge designs…
https://sites.google.com/site/webgaffer/home/badge-designs/Saltire-FrenchTricolor-cropped2.jpg
What puzzles me about the Fatwa against Outlander is this. I can understand that the government can terrorize the BBC into boycotting it. But what about SKY? C4, ITV? Here we have a best selling product, hugely popular throughout the world, and the commercial stations say “no thanks”.
How was that achieved?
Briandoonthetoon,
I love aw your badges. You must have some collection now.
O/T That Michael Gove is a real slimy piece of work. Tried to ridicule every YES voter some time back, and now he is trying to say that Scotland would have control of it’s borders if we voted to leave EU.
Lower than a snakes belly that’s what he is.
Yeah I know ephemeral re Sony etc, and yeah Brian I meant couchtuner when I said couchturner in my post. I was really on about something more organised and massive in terms of dissemination…nevah mind just pissed off by the whole thing.
Hi Capella.
RE: the non-showing of ‘Outlander’. See my post here (10th June):-
http://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/comment-page-35/#comment-2152847
Quite Capella! Why have none of these broadcasters taken on Outlander…it really does smack of an organised ‘boycott’…the establishment has a long reach.
Capella
the reason they say no thanks is that they are scared of a programme depicting the cruelty meted out on the Scots during the time of the benevolent “Union”.
Ably assisted by those accepting a Knighthood or a wee bauble or two.
Nowadays the Labour and tory peers and dames would fit the bill with a few key personal in crucial positions in the civil service , justiciary etc
Just waiting on the driving on the other side of the read scare followed by being invaded by aliens and that will be it for me
Thanks Sandy.
We try…
Actually, we come up with Pro-Indy designs and ‘accept’ donations for them. At ‘Hope Over Fear’, October 2015, we raised £500 each for the ‘Greater Maryhill Foodbank’ and Dundee’s ‘Taught By Muhammad’ foodbank.
It’s a hobby…
You can see more designs here:-
https://sites.google.com/site/webgaffer/home/badge-designs
I still think it’s brilliant that ‘Ginger’, the Wee Ginger Dug, has a Wings medallion on his collar.
@ Brian Doonthetoon – My previous post has disappeared into the ether. I was thinking that Outlander would be banned because it identifies “the British” and “the Redcoats” as the enemy. It is historically pretty accurate so it would give Scots a better picture of their history and that may be anathema to the Establishment.
Also, by not broadcasting it on terrestrial TV there is no “watercooler” effect where people chat about what they all saw on TV the night before.
The BBC have never accepted scripts from writers on Scottish historical subjects.
want to vote stay to help indy
want to vote leave to stick it up cameron
want to vote stay for workers rights
want to vote leave as i do believe immigration will get out of control
but having listened to both campaings I honestly feel like spoiling my paper by putting wankers on it..
If only I could live to 2096 to find out what the so called Lord Robertson had been involved in with Hamilton and the rest of them at Dunblane. He got his reward being top of NATO. He is something of the night. What did he hide?
Because of past indoctrination, I am immediately as angered as others by statements that the thugs in France are ‘British’. But in recent years I have realised that I am definitely not British. I don’t want any part of Britishness. I don’t want to be associated with the British. The cap doesn’t fit and I am no longer wearing it. I am Scottish not British.
So, if the BBC is putting out that the thugs in France are ‘British’ – for their own twisted reasons – then that is ok by me. It is a key British value, not a Scottish value, to be xenophobic and to express it forcibly wherever possible. These are the the yoons’ in their lowest form. I have no doubt that these thugs in France are British, just like the North British thugs who live in Scotland, with their marching bands, their religious and racist bigotry. I have no doubt that the vast majority of English football supporters in France today are decent people and want no part of this British violence.
So perhaps we should tell it like it is: that this thuggery is a symptom of blood and soil British nationalism, carried out by those who identify themselves as British. And while we are at it, it’s time we separated out the role of the North British in acts of hate crime and violent crime in Scotland.
Hi Capella.
You typed,
“Also, by not broadcasting it on terrestrial TV there is no “watercooler” effect where people chat about what they all saw on TV the night before.”
AH! Never thought of that. Mind you, that might be because there’s only four in our team and we never congregate around the watercooler. We’re refined; one at a time…
Wouldn’t it be nice if the Scottish Government had the power the Yoons attribute to it in order to kid on the even more stupid Yoons that the SNP are all powerful and have all the power that they actually don’t have
If the SNP were that powerful they would have had no problem putting up alcohol unit price
They would have had no problem about parking on pavements
They would have no problem wiping Police Scotland tax bill out that’s imposed by Westminster
We could go on all day about what they don’t have power over, but they do have ABSOLUTE power over
ROAD SIGNS!!!… I really hate Yoons
Anyone remember the post on WOS where Gordon Brown appears on a video with music by the band Suicide?
A rigged Remain vote is guaranteed.
I am really looking forward to the Tory civil war which will follow.
I was thinking that Outlander would be banned because it identifies “the British” and “the Redcoats” as the enemy.
You could probably make Outlander style shows around the world. The sight of a union jack on the horizon has meant genocide, slavery, ecological disaster where ever it went. Look at the USA, once a native American paradise and then people from Plymouth showed up.
@stephen…
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-suicide-note/
@ Gfaetheblock says at 3:15 pm …”The EBC was still calling English Thugs as British fans on the EBC News at One today. Oh and referred to English Thugs making Court appearances in France as “BRITONS!”
They can say what they like Gfaetheblock. Call the thugs what they like. Everyone in Europe, around the World in fact, knows exactly who’s causing the bother and that it aint the Scots, Welsh or N Irish.
I’ve travelled to many countries, over time, and have found that the Scots are adored whilst the English are abhorred (and they’re not long in telling you). Shame of course that everyone gets tarred with the same brush as there are many decent ordinary English people who probably detest these morons as much as, or even more so than, we do.
You could probably make Outlander style shows around the world. The sight of a union jack on the horizon has meant genocide, slavery, ecological disaster where ever it went.
Well they have. You won’t be seeing “Turn” either on British terrestrial TV. That’s about Washington’s spies against the Redcoats in the American War of Independence. Another Amazon Prime only (unlike The West Wing, Mad Men and Friends etc etc which you can watch all day long)
What’s different with Outlander is that the colonised country is prevented from watching it. We were always prevented from producing it.
Thanks Paula rose .
Campaigns getting feverish but the postal votes are aready, well, posted! Freds is anyhow.
Contrast the English thug behavior with the Irish singing an Abba song in the streets with the Swedish fans.
This is what these tournaments should be about. Good fun no matter who you support.
Nicely balanced BBC tv news thing there for Reamain Brown and Brexit Bojo. Light years from their full on monstering of Scottish democracy 2014. Where oh where is Corbyn though. What a weird outfit Labour is now.
I would appreciate a article on the various treaty’s that the various PMs signed up to from when we joined the common market. What was sacrificed and what was given away.
Capella
Re Outlander- I am starting to worry my proposed feature length dramatisation of Hertford’s invasion and genocide in 1544 during the Rough Wooing (provisional title “Put all to fire and sword”) might not be what the BBC are looking for.
Its Braveheart meets Apocalypse Now as Hertford tours Lothian and the Borders (while Henry’s VIII navy tours the Fife coast) visiting loads of interesting towns, villages, harbours, monasteries, castles all “razed and defaced” as Henry’s vengeance is meted out.
Surely my pitch will be looked at by BBC Scotland on its own merit rather than any narrow “political considerations” and the success of Outlander means they could be onto a winner. Just imagine this little known and brutal period of our history could find an international audience.
Wish me luck!
England (or Britain) plays Wales (not Britain) on Thursday in Lille. There are concerns.
The FA has “serious concerns” about security in Lille, where England fans are due to gather ahead of Thursday’s Euro 2016 match against Wales in nearby Lens
Reason is , all those Russian professional hooligans will be there.
Prosecutors say 150 Russian hooligans were behind the violence in Marseille when Russia played England.
It’s these Ruffians who are to blame.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36523861
K1 says:
13 June, 2016 at 7:33 pm
So Outlander is looking to be around as a series for the next 10 years, filmed in Scotland, with Scottish actors and irrespective of ‘pin point’ accuracy in the telling, a tale about Scotland’s History…and it’s not on our terrestrial TV screens why?
So just like ‘Brigadoon’ rarely making it onto TV in Scotland?
Perhaps there’s a simple explanation. It’s crap. It’s crap history and it’s crap TV.
Capella, there is no major British institution which does not have a loyal place man in place to be used when the British state is in danger.
This became blindingly obvious during the referendum campaign but I think what it did do and will help us in the long run is expose people and institutions for what they are.
Next referendum people will not be so blind going into it because they can use the broken promises and the lies from the previous one as a barometer so to speak.
Here’s hoping the timing is in our favour also.
@ Tam Jardine. Great project. Forget the BBC. Here’s their advice to writers from “Writing for the BBC”:
The National Regions
BBC Scotland
Historical costume drama is rarely required, as a stock of suitable scripts is already available, or will be produced by adaptations from books. Plays of a ‘home-spun’ kind, set in the countryside and depicting a life no longer lived in Scotland, will not be accepted. A major part of Scotland’s Drama output consists of plays, series and serials, intended for a network audience. A much smaller part of the Drama output is intended solely for a Scottish audience.
From “Writing for the BBC”
Good luck!
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2016/11/section/11/enacted
(6)After that section insert—
“31ATwo-thirds majority for Bills relating to a protected subject-matter
If the Presiding Officer states under section 31(2A) that in his view any provision of a Bill relates to a protected subject-matter, the Bill is not passed unless the number of members voting in favour of it at the final stage is at least two-thirds of the total number of seats for members of the Parliament.”
I wonder if that’s intended to scupper even a consultative referendum on independence. Or any other bill the presiding officer of the day doesn’t fancy.
re Outlander –
I presume the simple explanation why it has not ended up on terrestrial tv is because Amazon Prime acquired the first-run UK rights.
Season 1 is available as a boxset.
Not seen it – nor had any interest in it- until my attention was drawn to the description
” It is magical-mystical heuchter-teuchter cobblers”
Now that might be worth five minutes of my time if/when it ends upon council telly.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-23464418
@ Del
re Outlander. Clearly you haven’t seen it. It’s very good. Historically very accurate. Hugely popular around the world. A Bestseller. Soft porn for historians. What more can I say?
Tonights 2016 In a Nutshell
Labours Tom Harris wants more powers for the Scottish Parliament after spending two years arguing for us not to have any at all
Ming Campbell says immigration is a reserved political matter and Scotland can get stuffed
Labours Claudia Beamish says SNP climate targets have been met but they’re still Baad
The Greens want more trains and buses and all the cars gone plus the SNP are Baad for not doing it the day before yesterday
The end
O/T
Mentioned earlier.
What’s the deal with Amazon Prime and other type channels.
I think I read on Wings a wee while ago about being able to legally watch these whilst not have an Empire TV licence.
As for Crash not living in London, does he still cost the tax payer for security outside his house in Fife?
@ Mike Cassidy. Not so. It was available for terrestrial TV long before Amazon acquired the rights. It was playing on TV all over the known universe before Amazon acquired the rights.
Diane Gabaldon remarked on this during her Edinburgh Book Festival interview in August 2014. (Google it) She was puzzled about why, in Scotland, setting of the drama, it was not being broadcast. Amazon picked it up months later.
O/T
just in reference to Nicola getting grief from the Yoon rags for courting trade with China,
`a total of 96 contracts worth 15 billion U.S. dollars were signed on Monday between Chinese and German companies at the eighth Chinese-German Forum for Economic and Technological Cooperation`.
Big question, are ALL the polls wrong? Because if they aren’t all consistently wrong, then England votes to leave the EU in ten days time.
It looks increasingly likely that serious campaigning for Indy will begin again, a fortnight today!
Looks like old news regards ‘Outlander’. It was banned from being shown in UKOK, by the establishment regime. We heard of people seeing it on tv in Australia, like, 2 years ago, but it was not available here and as far as I know still not available, unless you sign up to Amazon rip off, got you by the short n curlies prime.
Capella
Yeah- I know. They wouldn’t commission something like that in a million years… Pretty interesting part of our history but. They spent a week in Leith and Edinburgh burning everything and eventually left with their 200 vessel navy (including a couple of our warships they stole) burdened with loot.
After Hertford’s army left Leith they continued rampaging, burning, raping and pillaging every settlement for miles around on the way back down south then came back three years later to have another go at it and burnt Leith to the ground again.
Maybe Neil Oliver could do a voice-over?
Historic red tory liar in action. Even if Gove had written it in stone, its unlikely anyone would fall his UKOK bullshit again, is it?!
Torcuil Crichton Retweeted Nicola Sturgeon
Looks like @NicolaSturgeon is trolling Gove as he claims Brexit will bring the benefits of Independence
Torcuil Crichton added,
Nicola Sturgeon @NicolaSturgeon
Well there’s a fib and a half… #voteremain …
A sneaky shit like that dude extolling another sneaky shit’s “benefits of independence” gives a pretty good idea how the Record wants it’s scotland to region to vote, just like England.
I just wish to share my embarrassment concerning Gordon Brown
pacing and growling in his cage before an enclosed audience.
There must be cruelty involved there somehow. Cruelty to the
audience, or the spectators; and cruelty to Gordon Brwn for being
advised that it was acceptable behaviour.
“Let’s take back control” says Gove and then he’s going to give Scotland, run by the SNP, control of Scottish immigration? Now why is that a tad unbelievable?
For those wondering why “they” don’t want Outlander shown up here, simples, it might insight the natives enough to to make yes a certainty.
Vote remain then get Alex, as our spokesman on foreign affairs, to push for all European regions to have their own devolved television as a human right.
@ Tam Jardine – on the other hand Tam, the North American passion for historical drama is alive and well. Ask Diane Gabaldon!
Come to think of it, so is the English market – as long as it is English themed. Poldark, Call the Midwife, umpteen Agatha Christie reruns, Sherlock Holmes and Peaky Blinders look like historical costume drama to me.
Outlander debuted in USA in August 2014.
UK Sale announced February 2015
http://archive.is/1T1Ay
Debuted in UK – via Amazon Prime – March 2015.
The Herald story about possible political interference in the sale of UK rights is archived here.
http://archive.is/Wu7ke
Toryboy sniffy about democracy, shock. Looks like it’s Brexit now though, if Murdoch’s called it. If England get booted out of Euro 2016 on Friday, it’s bye bye EU from teamGB. Should be fun watching Murdoch’s gimps at Scottish Sun trying to make Scotland vote out too.
David Torrance ?@davidtorrance 21m21 minutes ago
How long before someone describes the Brexit/Leave surge as a ‘festival of democracy’? Etc, ad nauseam.
David Torrance Retweeted
The Sun ?@TheSun 1h1 hour ago
Tomorrow’s front page. We’re backing Brexit – and here’s why:
@ Gisacock
Fuck off you British empire apologist.
John Boyle on Newsnight Scotland saying “bring it on”- it being indyref2- this strange, demented waxwork literally caked in makeup is almost apoplectic with rage as he drives a coach and horses through all of his previous anti-Scottish Independence pish.
What a strange guy- thought Denise Mina was going to have to reach for the mace at one point.
Kirsty giving Denise Mina wee prompts and little nods to encourage her to go along with her proposition that indy supporters should vote leave to converge with England so whether we remain or leave we can all wallow in BBC filth forever as part of a unified hole.
You can almost taste the fear. A circa 65-70% Remain vote in Scotland and a leave vote down south and the creaking we can hear will just grow louder and louder as the plates shift.
I am voting, according to Kirsty on a proposition that will kick Scottish Independence into the long grass. Indulging in a wee bit of wishful thinking I think.
The corrupt Unionist media is still maintaining that the English supporters are the ‘victims’ in all of this. On video for us all to see. You couldn’t make it up …. well they, some of them, seemingly can.
However I’ve come across an article / blog on two occasions (can’t find it now!) whereby a journalist from the Telegraph, who was standing close to the Russian supporters, stated that it was the English fans who initiated the attack on the Russians following them scoring their goal.
‘Denial’ and ‘cover-ups’ aint doing anyone any favours. It just encourages them to continue to behave badly when they don’t seem to need any encouragement at all.
……………………………………….
Meanwhile we’ve got the nutcase across the Atlantic harping on again about blocking Muslims from entering the US on the back of this latest Orlando tragedy. He’s also decrying Clinton’s call for restrictions on guns arguing that her policies would make the vulnerable defenceless. ”She wants to take away Americans guns and admit the very people who would slaughter us.”
Seems his advisors forgot to tell him that the perpertrator, Omar Mateen, was born in New York City and legally purchased the guns in the US, such as a .223 caliber AR-type rifle and a Glock handgun, within the past week or so even although he had been known to law enforcement agencies for years. Their Intelligence Services, surveillance techniques, guns and Nuclear weapons don’t seem be doing them much good. Not protecting them too well.
I’ve got no time for War Hawk Clinton, and didn’t want her to win, but by God I’m praying for it to happen now especially if Sanders finds himself in a position to impose some restrictions.
Can you imagine Boris running the show here and Trump in America? It doesn’t bear thinking about.
heedtracker
Seems to be on the English Sun website but nothing on the Scottish Sun site. It could be they take a different line up here to avoid being on the wrong site of the public- would not surprise me.
@ Petra – the only reason that scenario doesn’t scare me is because, in reality, neither of them are actually running anything. I believe they are merely front-of-house entities, hired to sell the public policies that nobody in their right mind would ever dream of endorsing.
It’s well known, because Noam Chomsky has pointed it several times, that politicians do not represent the well known aspirations of the voting public. They ignore us. So let us return the favour.
But we need to make public the profoundly anti-democratic nature of our pubic institutions.
Or even public institutions!
Aye Petra @ 12.09 it doesnae bear thinking about.
I am more terrified about a ‘Leave’ vote than I was about a ‘No’ to Scottish Indepence.
On a lighter note got the WBB at my local SNP Branch meeting tonight.
However, most of us do not have the stomach for any more campaigning or leaflet dropping.
Too much within 2 years methinks.
I watched Parliament TV this afternoon and our SNP MPs gave a very good account of themselves during the debate on Orlando.
Stewart McDonald MP for Glasgow South’s contribution is on the SNP FB page
Got my 20 Wee Black Books today. Soooo excited! Thank you.
The best the Leave campaigners can come up with now is that all the countries in Europe are not Independent and they hate Nicola Sturgeon
Kirsty Wark trying to push the idea The FM is doing the Tories dirty work for them
From all sides no matter what the question or answer is they all want to damage the SNP in any way they can
That just confirms to me how much all of them are desperate to cling on to Scotland even though that question isn’t on the ballot paper
A really really big Vow from both sides of the argument should be expected anytime soon, ways must be found to make Scotland do what they want at the same time as find a way to screw us immediately afterwards and then blame it on the SNP
If by now most people with half a brain can’t see what’s going on and vote REMAIN in huge numbers they must be nuts
Quite honestly I think David Cameron will be delighted with a leave vote as will the rest of his twisted lying party but they have to go through the motions to fool us into thinking some kind of Democracy’s taking place
Look at Corbyn, he can’t even bring himself to lie well enough that he’s IN
After all, what the hell do we matter to the Tories or Labour we’re all just fodder for them
Sod Britain, just concentrate on what’s good for Scotland
@Valerie
“I know Putin will be ecstatic if we Brexit, but has the invasion by Russia been dragged out of the minging bag of tricks yet?”
Of course it has, just in the past few days.
http://archive.is/gAz9y
http://archive.is/Nmim2
http://archive.is/A7jPY
http://archive.is/1kkUW
However, for a more reasoned account, see here.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/uk-illegally-harasses-russian-submarine-engaged-lawful-passage-english-channel/
@Capella
“England (or Britain) plays Wales (not Britain) on Thursday in Lille.”
On that note, did anyone see the BBC’s trailer for the England v Wales game? An all-out England fest, with poetry and imagery, and not a peep about Wales.
It went along the lines of;
I must ask this of you, England
What shall we see?
The promise, and only that
Of ancients turned grey
Not your deeds
But still, the shackles, your irons
Free yourself, England
RISE, LIKE LIONS
The background imagery to this featured the White Cliffs of Dover, castles with England flags, Eric Dier’s goal against Russia followed by Russia’s equaliser and the disappointed faces of English players, five England players in a cavernous, candlelit room with a massive England badge on the wall with three massive stone lions in front, ending with a view of Wembley Stadium.
Now, if England were the only British team to be represented at the European Championships, it could be excused, but considering that another home nation is participating it proved beyond doubt that the BBC are only interested in England, and everyone else can fuck off.
I reckon Gordon Brown just about soiled his Tena flex maxis when he was asked to get involved in promoting ‘Remain’; asking tentatively with his lip quivering and sweat pouring down his face if it related to conning the Scots again.
”No Gordon, it’s alright, calm down for goodness sake. We want you to lie to the English this time round.
You’ve been gone for so long, swanning around the World, that they’ll have forgotten by now that:
You backed Tony in invading Iraq; that the UK public debt was 44.1% of GDP when you became PM and was 148.1% when you stepped down; that you were involved in awarding the DWP Medical Services Contract to ATOS; started privatisation of the NHS; stole billions from the the pension pots; proposed the bedroom tax; deregulated the banks; sold the UK gold off at a loss of £6 billion; that gas prices rose by 133% and electricity rose by 69% between 1997 to 2010; you were behind selling off the Royal Mail; the Council Tax doubled when you were in charge (105% increase in England, 146% Wales); spending on NHS managers increased by 450% to over £1bn per year; you lumbered the NHS with vast PFI repayments – £50 billion worth of loans which are costing £300 billion in repayments; youth unemployment rose by more than 40% when you and Tone were in office; 421,000 homes were lost from the social housing stock when you were running the show then you built 6,330 new social houses between 1998-2010 (compared to Maggie’s 17,710 in 1990) ; manufacturing shrank by 6%: falling from 20% of GDP to just 11% when you and your buddy were in power and the use of food banks went up tenfold from 3,000 users in 2005/06 to over 40,000 by 2009/10. More than anything you left a deficit of £156 billion, PFI liability of £301 billion and an EU Rebate loss £9.3 billion when you jiggered off.
But that’s all behind you now Gordie and we’re really short on big (s) hitters so you’ll have to help out. And remember it’s the EU we’re talking about here, not an Indyref, so for God’s sake don’t mention that it was you who signed the Lisbon Treaty: The Treaty which gave away so many of our powers to the EU and reduced UK sovereignty and the power of our Westminster Parliament dramatically.”
Oh right. So much to try to remember …. and to forget. I’m just off to the men’s room to check my Tena … eh wash my clunking fists. Got to get prepared for round two.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
Seems like lessons have been learned from the Scottish referendum. Project Fear worked, and now both sides are trying to outdo each other.
Problem for the government and the BBC is that the Leave side is running the bigger Project Fear campaign through the tabloids.
Fear of immigrants is trumping any prospect of economic pain.
https://caltonjock.com/2016/06/14/oh-what-a-tangled-web-they-weave-the-rich-elite-get-richer-and-screw-the-many-less-fortunate-minions/
@ Capella says at 12:25 am …. ”Or even public institutions!”
HA, HA, HA! You got it right first time round.
Oooh we’re at the ‘panic’ stage now, Cameron ‘has stood aside from active campaigning to make way for a push from Labour'(snigger)
The polls have clearly put the crappers up them.
‘A source within the remain camp said Downing Street had shifted from being “utterly convinced” of victory in the referendum battle, to a “blind panic”. The source claimed that strategists had convened an emergency meeting on Friday, but a spokesman for Britain Stronger in Europe denied the suggestion.’
But this is the real cause of the panic:
‘The sense of panic among remain campaigners has emerged since Labour MPs started reporting negative feedback from voters in their constituencies. One senior figure in the party claimed that politicians all over the country, and particularly in working-class heartlands, had said that they believed their own areas would swing towards Brexit.’
You just need to imagine even if it is a ‘close’ Remain win (overall, after Angela Merkel and all the European leaders sign the parchment like scroll on the front page of The Times (because the Sun has come out for Leave, don’t know if Scottish edition has?), with credits duly noted to the Daily Record for the template of course! Followed by the postal ballot rigging et al), much like our own Indyref1 there will be particular areas in England that have voted ‘Out’ and very much ‘unlike’ what did happen here but what we are constantly told has happened here, the ‘division’ in England will definitely be a ‘real’ problem for that country.
The Establishment has a lot to answer for with this. The only thing I can see that they could ‘pull out the hat’ at this late stage would actually be Betty making a televised appeal to the English to remain. She is now the only thing that they would have left that still has huge resonance in England but I think it would have to be less subtle than her intervention in Scotland. That is, if the establishment really want the UK to Remain?
Remain or Leave things are never going to be the same again. No bad thing for us, but England really could tear itself apart, for the Establishment have awoken English nationalism and it’s not that ‘civic’ flavoured type that we enjoy here in Scotland.
http://archive.is/UkOb7
Front page of the Sun 14th June 2016:
https://twitter.com/TheSun/status/742463309178372100
Commenter’s on Twitter saying Scottish Sun ‘sitting on the fence’ though I must say I don’t see anything either way in the ScotSun edition’s front page that indicate’s what their stance is.
Compare and contrast:
https://twitter.com/search?q=scottish%20sun&src=typd
Just watch as NRA loving Muslim hating Trump tries to cope with the cognitive dissonance of trying to argue to protect the right to bear arms while trying to disarm American muslims.
Pre September 2014 the streets were buzzing with activity; street stalls, public meetings, leafleting; this time, virtually nothing.
Has the campaign in Scotland been a damp squib?
Weegingerdug: ‘Wild-eyed mutants in the rubble of Europe.’
‘’We’ve only got a week and a half to go before the EU referendum, if we can survive that long. It’s not the threats of terrorist atrocities in every high street from the Brexit campaign that will do us in, nor the dire warnings of impending apocalypse from the Remain campaign, by Thursday of next week much of the country is likely to have commited suicide by battering their heads off the nearest brick wall at the sheer bloody stupidity and inanity of the claims and counter claims of both sides. And these people, let us not forget, are those we were constantly told during the Scottish independence referendum who were the big hitters of Westminster with galactic intellects and statespersony experiences which knocked our wee Scottish representatives into a cocked glengarry.’’….
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/06/13/wild-eyed-mutants-in-the-rubble-of-europe/
……………………………………………………………….
‘Europe: finding a role or losing the plot?’
‘’On 5th December, 1962 Dean Acheson (1893-1971), who had been US President Harry Truman’s Secretary of State, gave a speech at West Point on foreign policy in which he referred, almost with casual indifference, to Britain’s place in the world. His observation, acute and candid as it was, seemed to the British the more devastating for being apparently delivered by a friend:
“Great Britain has lost an empire and has not yet found a role. The attempt to play a separate power role — that is, a role apart from Europe, a role based on a ‘special relationship’ with the United States, a role based on being head of a ‘commonwealth’ which has no political structure, or unity, or strength — this role is about played out. Great Britain, attempting to be a broker between the United States and Russia, has seemed to conduct policy as weak as its military power”.’’….
Britain not only turned away from the EEC, but in the immediately succeeding years Britain resorted to creating its own single, common market: the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) in 1960…..”
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/06/13/europe-finding-a-role-or-losing-the-plot/
Latest betting Stay: 8/15
Leave: 6/4
They are never far out, so Leave will have to make a
massive effort to change that in a short time.
The only flaw is some seriously large bets on Remain
have been placed, which skew the odds slightly, but
I tend to think by these odds Remain seems the
safe bet.
Hands up, I was convinced that Tory Government and BBC
Scaremongering would deliver their desired Remain result.
As they played their last card, as they did in Indy Ref 1
No Pensions, No NHS, and No Jobs, I would have put my shirt on England falling for it and Remaining.
I also acknowledge that the SUN has backed the winner in every election as far back as I remember.
The constant drip drip drip every day of lies and distortions to support Murdoch’s objectives.
As the English Sun supports Brexit, the result has swung in that direction.
I now cannot predict the result now as it may now hinge
on Cameron’s secret or special forces filling the ballot boxes on his behalf.
If the result was 52/48% for remain, will that be it for at least 25 years, or will Brexit continue to fight and UKIP still exist?
‘These are dangerous times in a campaign heading the wrong way.’
”Everything that could go wrong has gone wrong. Even the term Brexit has become the nom de guerre of the event and if anything embodies the ignorant and bellicose approach of much of Britain to the EU it is the bare-chested drunken thugs of the English football support. Away from the hushed corridors of Brussels there will be citizens in many member states quietly delighted to jettison the boorish Brits and their endless complaints, renegotiations and opt-outs…..
The Britain envisaged by the Outers of course has a deeper plan – Singapore Mark Two in which the UK becomes the offshore tax avoidance centre for Europe. Forget the Panama Papers…the right wing neo cons who will succeed the current crop of right wing neo cons will ditch the European rights we now enjoy in favour of severely restricted rights, especially at work, and draw in investment from those unconcerned with social conscience. Who, you may wonder will carry the can for this low tax, low rights regime? As ever, it will be the same disillusioned working men and women who vote to come Out……
http://newsnet.scot/commentary/dangerous-times-referendum-campaign-heading-wrong-way/
………………………………………………..
‘Faking a crisis: A Royal College campaign and its mirroring in the media.’
John Robertson continues his chronicling of how some media have covered a Royal College’s campaign against GP services in Scotland.
”From the STV website on Sunday 12th June ( but not mentioned in their TV broadcasts nor those of BBC Scotland):
‘Scotland has more GPs per head of population than any other part of the UK, newly released statistics show.’
The headline could have been:
‘Scottish GPs see 255 fewer patients than English GPs do.’….
In classic propaganda style, the more it is repeated, the more it becomes true, in the minds of viewers and readers.”…..
http://newsnet.scot/citizen/faking-crisis-royal-college-campaign-mirroring-media/
Can’t let it pass with commenting;
Just over a week to go until the vote, and Cameron is stepping aside to let Labour bring home the bacon?
There are rats who have abandonded sinking ships who are now left wide eyed and bewildered by Mr Cameron’s brass neckary.
I think the whole thing is hilarious.The Brits,having been told all their lives they are a superior people,are now being told they’re too wee,too poor and too stupid to have a pension without the French and Germans to prop them up.
@Mealer
What’s more, it seems we (as part of UK) are currently too wee and too poor anyway to have equivalent pensions of Germany etc (age and amount)
Look on the bright side. The age to qualify for your pension is higher than your life expectancy. It’s going to be harder to scare pensioners about losing it when they have no effing chance of living long enough to collect it.
Surprised that Labour’s clunking fist took the baton. I mean it worked out so well for his party in Scotland the last time.
This isn’t a debate, nor is it a referendum. Its a leadership power struggle masquerading as democratic choice. The prize? Who gets to turn the UK into the Singapore of the northern hemisphere and turn a city into a state with regional appendages.
I doubt Cameron gives a shit about the outcome TBH. Look at the effort and expense expended on the Scottish referendum. The political pressure applied, the international leverage sought, the lobbying of the business community all right up to the very last minute. Now compare with this campaign, with what we’re seeing now. Other than the usual fear mongering pish for stirring up the plebs, there is nowhere near the depth or breadth of effort involved.
This whole stooshie is smoke and mirrors and folk are being manipulated to basically self harm for a Tory pissing contest.
Its not too late for us. We can still ditch this nonsense and take our own path. The sooner we bring about an end to this political union, the sooner we lose this type of politics.
The M.S.M are merely tools of the establishment. The one thing you can be certain of once this stooshie has run it’s course, is that the Westminster elite will still be in control of us, because they perceive that to be their right.
The 1% won’t be losing any sleep over the result of this tory bun fight because their future is secure whoever wins. As usual it will be the poor, the deprived, the vulnerable who will suffer from any fallout, and there will be, no matter who comes out on top.
This is what we let ourselves in for when we voted No, a completely unnecessary referendum, so the tory party could counter the perceived threat to them from U.K.I.P. Whatever happens next week, Scotland, and its people, will come last in Westminster’s thoughts, as we are an irrelevance to them, except when it comes to plundering our riches.
“If by now most people with half a brain can’t see what’s going on and vote REMAIN in huge numbers they must be nuts.”
Yes, Dr Jim, but replace REMAIN with YES. For me and many here the case for independence is much stronger but what happened two years ago?
I fear a low turnout will make it difficult for Scotland to convert the 60+/40- Remain polling into hard votes and we already can see the campaign to try to minimise voting differences between Scotland and England. There is panic amongst Leave and Dodgy Dave may need the help of the SS (security service) to smooth things over.
The EU needs massive reform but living in a UK without access to EU human rights legislation, workers’ rights and social provision is a nightmare.
O/T: was visiting a sick neighbour yesterday who was flicking between RT and France 24. This just in: the weather map uses a flat, unforeshortened image of Great Britain!
“Is it true or did you SEE it on the BBC?”
Clunking Fist? Maer like Supurating Fistula.
WBB’s arrived – fantastic piece of work, great printing -had calmed down now as angry as ever remembering all the lies and seeing it all again during EU Ref- so very few ‘leaders’ speaking for all of us and not for vested interests and the establishment – how they can sleep at night I’ll never know.
Roll on Independence Day when we could possibly be an example to other countries how to try and govern with heart and fairness for all. We would not get everything right but we would have a damned good try.
“Panic amongst Remain” it should be.
Sorry.
And it was the France 24 weather map.
Sigh.
O/T
We’ve been hearing a great deal about the Orlando Massacre recently but I just wanted to mention a singular person who was shot in Orlando last Friday and died the following day.
Christina Grimmie, 22 year old talented singer, songwriter and pianist, was shot three times last Friday night while she signed autographs following her performance at The Plaza Live in Orlando.
Her killer Kevin Loibl had travelled to Orlando to commit the crime bringing two handguns, two extra magazines full of ammunition and a hunting knife. Christina’s brother managed to overpower him and prevented him from going on to kill others.
We all know that it’s an American citizens right to keep and bear arms but the situation is totally out of control and aggravated by the web of state secrecy that covers up the number of guns actually being held by Americans. Unofficial accounts state that there are more guns in America than the US population of 325 million. A majority of states actively restrict access to information on gun permits, the FBI must destroy background checks and Congress bans funding for research.
Trump (pro-gun lobby) reckons that if he puts a blanket block on muslims entering the US the gun-toting / killing problem will be solved. Blame the muslims. If anything his hateful, racist rhetoric will exacerbate the situation. Christina Grimmie was from an Italian-Romanian (immigrant) background, deeply religious and said to be a most compassionate and caring young girl. She was killed by a white non-muslim as were many other people in the US last week.
RIP Christina.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XFBT5iAA44
https://caltonjock.com/2016/06/14/the-european-integration-project-never-heard-of-it-read-on-mcduff/
I will vote to remain, however I have no concern about any disaster to the economy as a direct result of an exit. My worry is the wish of the neoliberal UK establishment to out-extreme the neoliberal ideology of the troika. and it will.
My pensioner SNP voting mother in law pronounced she would vote for a brexit due to all these immigrants. I advised her to stay healthy as her services would be much more in demand as a babysitter as my rights as en employee diminished.
The one thing a brexit will prove is that a sovereign gov with a central bank and a currency trumps the market. That in itself should be enough to blow the neoliberal ideology out the water. (Take note currency union enthusiasts) Of course the establishment press will smooth all of that over.
Moreover the idea that European countries will piss on their own businesses just to sour relations with the UK is fantasy. Counties will continue to want import and export for their economic benefit. It’s all propaganda all in a similar vein to 2014.
When the pound devalues (as it probably will for a while), the actions of the Tory govt will be key to the continuation of the UK as we know it.
If they allow it to ride out the temporary storm and improve the competitiveness of our exports then I don’t think too much will happen. If however they decide to impose further austerity to choke off imports (internal devaluation) then I think we may see indyref 2.
Boris, Gove, Farage and co. keep teeling us that ‘WE must regain control of The UK’s affairs’.
The thing that people should consider before deciding to vote is just who precisely is this ‘WE’.
The answer to that question should surely convince any sensible person that they must vote to Remain.
Dr Jim
If you watched Kirsty Wark on Newsnight last night you would have caught her none too subtle encouragement (presumably when she thought she was off camera) in a question to Denise Mina.
It was a classic- leading question (essentially ‘will a Remain vote mean Scottish Independence being kicked into the long grass’ followed by little nods, raised eyebrows aimed at Remain voter and No voter Denise Mina.
Much as Wings over Scotland has been great fun and being engaged in politics is interesting and the Yes campaign was really the best time of my life I cannot bear the thought of spending the next 40 or whatever years of my life witnessing paid public servants machinations against Scottish Independence.
It strikes me that we are heading for the perfect storm and, if the polls are correct and they hold the UK is entering a period of political upheaval the likes of which most of us have not seen. A fissure has opened up in the very fabric of the UK state and folk like Kirsty are desperately trying to paper over the fissure.
I would appeal to all Yessers, regardless of your opinion on the EU to back Remain and make sure that next Thursday that fissure is a yawning chasm of public opinion. Those member states of the EU who were so cold and indifferent to Scottish Independence (and those who out and out opposed it) can be looking at a different landscape come Friday 24th. It is of course our fight but in the perfect storm of Brexit against a strong remain vote up here- what say Portugal, what say Germany, what say France on Scotland’s place in Europe being threatened? My guess it will be a combination of warmth, encouragement and a one in the eye for Westminster.
Accelerated accession they call it.
Lets try this EU project as a member, a full member state with a say, a strong voice on EU policy. And if the project is faltering maybe this small country on the edge of Europe can reinvigorate it and lead the way on human rights, workers rights, sustainability, renewable energy and ethical foreign policy.
We have a chance to become a role model for the rest of Europe and other small countries around the world – the will is there in the SNP and the wider Independence movement and all we need are some sensible no-voters to realise its time for a new direction, and a little bit of encouragement from the continent.
We don’t like the treatment of Greece? Imagine how diminished our ability to affect similar outcomes in the future will be when we detach from the EU, tethered to the death-star for ever.
This our chance.
“All Wings report in”
“Red 10 standing by”…
youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8
Quarter of a UKOK century since Up Yours Delors and nothing changes in teamGB. When we were young and pretty, Tory BBC led royals grovel fest at the weekend, England fans, NOT thugs, on the rampage, almost no internet or mobile phones back then though.
Coffee time with the Sun, 2016
The Sun ?@TheSun 12m12 minutes ago
This tiny parking space might be worth more than your house
The Sun ?@TheSun 12m12 minutes ago
Be-leave in Britain: The Sun backs Brexit.
The Sun Retweeted
Dear Deidre ?@DearDeidre 30m30 minutes ago
I started meeting up with my son’s best friend for sex and now I’ve fallen pregnant…
The Sun ?@TheSun 8m8 minutes ago
Russian thugs shouted ‘die, die, die’ as they spat on England fan left in a coma
Even when Rupert’s eventually interred with Snatcher Thathcher in her pyramid on the Mall, with the weeping and wailing of the toryboys, its still going to be UKOK.
I posted on the Newsnet piece by Derek Bateman, that I’m really now thinking Cameron is a Brexiteer, but doesn’t want to be left holding the surprise parcel, when the music stops.
What a pig fcker that man is, but a consummate player/ringmaster- standing aside for Labour to make the case.
Bring in the clowns.
Cameron has done very little, except light the blue touch paper, and retire.
As someone else here observed, the English don’t cringe, they haven’t been systematically trodden on for decades.
Buckle up, guys.
Tinto Chiel says:
“I fear a low turnout will make it difficult for Scotland ….”
I am concerned at a low turn out in Scotland. Among other things, it will be difficult to argue that Scots actually care about their constitutional status if turnout here is well below England.
If England vote Out on a high turnout, and Scots vote Remain on a lowish turnout, it doesn’t make a very strong case for ‘against our will’.
Great post Tam…. as per usual.
I can’t access your youtube link. I’ll try this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8
petra @ 1.29am
Great post, I like being reminded of all these facts. I’m going to print that off and enclose it with all the WBBS I’ll be delivering to a selection of NO voters.
Make them sit up and think about the future and not themselves maybe.
As for the Sun ” newspaper ” I know they sell a few copies but I still don’t know why. No better than a cheap bogroll.
Is UKOK hackdom trying to frighten English fans, not thugs, into behaving themselves in Lille tomorrow? There is a lot at stake for the UK, so both scary their fans as well as defending them might work.
The Sun ?@TheSun 28m28 minutes ago
Russian hooligans held X Factor-style auditions to find elite 150 to fight at Euro 2016
Petra
Thanks. Just read your post on Christina Grimmie. Words fail me at the barbarism in the world. Pointless, senseless, meaningless slaughter of a beautiful, talented young woman.
Who knows what it will take before the USA changes its attitude and position on gun control if indeed it ever gets its act together.
I’m with you Tinto Chiel @ 9:26.
YES certainly did have the monopoly on winning arguments, but our 2014 referendum should be held up as living testament that a monopoly in broadcast propaganda, (however corrupt it may be), will trump a monopoly in winning arguments.
I get increasingly frustrated that too many of us still don’t see the wood for the trees, and still believe that victory next time around rests upon a better explanation of the pro-Indy arguments; having a case for the pound, having a counter argument ready for pensions… Sorry folks. That’s like catching somebody cheating at Monopoly and reading through the book of rules for the game to find a way of stopping them. The “cheat” is outside the rules. That is why it’s a cheat.
People assume that a Brexit result will mandate our Government to hold a second Indy referendum. With a following breeze, perhaps it will, but I am deeply, deeply, troubled that we are still applying such a linear thought pattern to defeat a random, abstract and frankly chaotic mechanism keeping us bound to this Union.
I am uncomfortable about a UDI, especially a unilateral Declaration of Independence which came so soon after a No vote, but I think Craig Murray might be making a good call. A “careful” UDI, where it is England leaving us, for us to remain where we already are in Europe, has a logic to it, especially as Craig suggests, when ratified with a follow up referendum. Essentially, Scotland hasn’t left the Union, the Union left Scotland. Heaven forbid that the follow up referendum did NOT ratify the de-facto UDI, …. But let’s not go there.
My concern, is that we are using reason to win an argument where it is only ourselves who are burdened by reason. That is the big flaw in our strategy. To crassly misappropriate the quote, “We are but fools to seek grace from a graceless face…”.
The bottom line is whatever happens next week, for a brief period, the U.K. Is going to be in a state of flux which has no prescedent. If we are committed, prepared and ready, perhaps we can pull our country free of the chaos and make good our escape from this wholly irrational predicament. Independence by act or proxy! Has a kinda ring to it…
Is there too short a time to know beyond doubt where our sovereign law stands in protecting us from the UK’s Supreme Court? And could we/ should we think hard on Mr Murray’s proposition? Time to decide is running away from us… I feel like an Ent, overcome by haste and emergency, but steady contemplation of the alternatives is equally sobering.
Russian hooligans held X Factor-style auditions to find elite 150 to fight at Euro 2016
Well so much for our Super Sleuths. With their tec savvy 77th Brigade couldn’t they spot this X Factor show? Or do the Ruffians not use IT? Or – are they just spying on us? The enemy within?
@ Breeks “I get increasingly frustrated that too many of us still don’t see the wood for the trees, and still believe that victory next time around rests upon a better explanation of the pro-Indy arguments”
I don’t think victory rests on a better explanation of the arguments – though that can’t do any harm – I think it rests on a continual, daily, focused statement of the case by everybody, everywhere, whenever the opportunity arises. We have to be our own broadcasting service.
Like WoS at large!
We’ve only got one country Scotland all the other lot think they own everything else and whatever they say goes and if it doesn’t. they’ll get angry, and the thing is they think they’ve every right to be
Will it lead to Scottish Independence? a question spat out in every interview now (not on the ballot paper) and there’s usually a nasty reference to Nicola Sturgeon involved
I find it amazing that the English don’t hold David Cameron responsible for things that happen in Britain yet Nicola Sturgeon is imbued with the power to change landscapes, create opinion, and hypnosis is often accredited to her amongst her other not inconsiderable powers
Fortunately those of us with some semblance of grey matter between our ears understands perfectly well that all that rhetoric by the Media and English politicians comes down to one word “BLAME” and don’t they like to hang it on Scotlands First Minister at every opportunity
Force feed the people that everything is the responsibility, and under the control of that woman
The maker of Referendums,The Destroyer of Worlds
And the more they do it the stronger my support becomes because if they fear her that much then she’s doing it right I just wish those with less speed of thought would stick their fingers in the light socket and give themselves a wee jolt into 2016 and let’s get back to the future
Owing to all the lies I am not voting in this one there is no way I could vote for either of the Tory sides.
Manufactured grievances and toxic fantasies of victimhood are being being used to manipulate English nationalist sentiment to promote a global corporate agenda.
It’s Project Fear Squared:
http://moflomojo.blogspot.com/2016/06/project-fear-squared.html
K1 says: Oooh we’re at the ‘panic’ stage now, Cameron ‘has stood aside from active campaigning to make way for a push from Labour'(snigger)
So does this mean private polling (or, more probably, Ruth opening the postal ballots again) shows a win for LEAVE?
You always have to look out for the Blue Tories shafting the eternally hapless Red Pawns.
I noticed the polls really turned after we were treated to the sight of John Major and Tony Blair campaigning together for Remain.
Everyone knows these despicable and universally despised money-grubbers never get out of bed unless there is some cash in it for them. And if there is money for them…. that means, by default, there is less money for someone else (us!).
I still think it will be a Remain vote. Because Remain is the choice in London and SE England, which always gets to dictate to the rest of the UKOK. And some seem to think Remain will “kill off Scottish independence”!
I think there is no enthusiasm in Scotland at all for the referendum, because it is like choosing between two NO camps — both invoke Project Fear and both are led by “Tories”.
ScottieDog says:
I will vote to remain, however I have no concern about any disaster to the economy as a direct result of an exit.
I used to think this, but after some research i found that by stopping free movement of people, basically what this ref is about, could have the consequence of tariff barriers erected. While some businesses in the uk may well gain from this state of affaires, (generally not news worthy) some will definately lose
I think the thread of tariffs being imposed is genuine and real.
eg car manufacturers employees in the uk. to make cars in the uk will become 20% more than in the rEU.
eg, toyota, 70% of the materials to build their cars in the uk, come from the rEU… 10% UK import tariff. 90% of their cars are exported to the rEU…10% EU import tariff.
Germany will not be cutting its nose of despite its face…. its a country, it doesnt have a face. While the german minister of trade, does have a face, he is a politician and not a car manufacturer. Toyota, on the other hand, has factories all over the EU, they will simply redirect their car parts to their other car manufacturers in the EU. this will actually increase production significantly at these other car plants, with no drp in sales at their car part facilities. A win win for toyota employees in poland, germany and france.
It isnt germany who will be cutting of its nose despite its face, its the uk.
convincing no supporting remain voters to support yes2, wont happen on the 24th post brexit, neither will bojo announcing that closed borders is pre-requisit to negotiations nor will the EU announcing that tariff barriers are their pre-requisit to negotiations. However, it is at this very point that you and I, and toyota will know exactly what post brexit will look like and start to plan accordingly.
What will convince no supporting remain voters to support yes2, is the constant drip drip of companies like toyota announcing huge cuts in staff or the closing of their plant in south hampton with 7k job losses with 3k associated dependent local jobs going
too.
the question isnt whether toyota can or cant do this, it’s why wouldnt they?
Its nothing personal, just business
“Statement from Toyota in regards to the UK/ EU Referendum, June 23rd 2016
23rd February, 2016.
Back in 1992, Toyota chose the UK for its first major manufacturing operations in Europe because of the open and free access to the European market, Toyota UK are wholly integrated into our European business and nearly 90 per cent of our UK-built vehicles are exported.
“We have carefully considered the implications for our manufacturing operations, should the UK leave the European Union. We are concerned that leaving would create additional business challenges. As a result we believe continued British membership of the EU is best for our operations and their long term competitiveness.”
Manufacturing Centres
Toyota Motor Manufacturing (UK) Ltd.
Toyota Motor Manufacturing France S.A.S.
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Poland Sp. z o.o.
Toyota Motor Industries Poland Sp. z o.o.
Toyota Caetano Portugal SA
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Turkey
Toyota Peugeot Citroën Automobile Czech
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Russia
Parts Logistics Centres
Toyota Parts Centre Europe – Diest, Belgium
Toyota Parts Centre South of France – Le Pouzin, France
Toyota Parts Centre Denmark – Middelfart, Denmark
Toyota Parts Centre Norway – Drammen, Norway
Toyota Parts Centre Austria – Vienna, Austria
Toyota Parts Centre Finland – Vantaa, Finland
Toyota Parts Centre Spain – Madrid, Spain
Toyota Parts Centre Great Britain – Lutterworth, England
Toyota Parts Centre Deutschland – Köln, Germany
Toyota Parts Centre Ireland – Dublin, Ireland
Toyota Parts Centre Poland – Warsaw, Poland
Toyota Parts Centre Portugal – Porto, Portugal
Toyota Parts Centre Greece – Athens, Greece
Toyota Parts Centre Czech Republic – Krupka, Czech Republic
Vehicle Logistics Centres
Zeebrugge Vehicle Logistics Centre – Zeebrugge, Belgium
Grimsby & Derby Vehicle Logistics Centre – England
Valenciennes Vehicle Logistics Centre – Valenciennes, France
Malmö Vehicle Logistics Centre – Malmö, Sweden
Hanko Vehicle Logistics Centre – Hanko, Finland
Adapazari Vehicle Logistics Centre – Adapazari, Turkey
Kolin Vehicle Logistics Centre – Kolin, Czech Republic
Paldiski Vehicle Logistics Centre – Paldiski, Estonia
Sagunto Vehicle Logistics Centre – Sagunto, Spain
Other facilities
Toyota Motorsport GmbH – Cologne, Germany
Kirsty Wark shamelessly trawling round the cemeteries to boost her Union profile. She omitted to mention the 300 plus who were shot at dawn, many of them shell-shocked out of their minds. Officers similarly shocked & awol were sent to Craiglockhart in Edinburgh to recover.
I think there is no enthusiasm in Scotland at all for the referendum, because it is like choosing between two NO camps — both invoke Project Fear and both are led by “Tories”.
I think that’s exactly the cunning UKOK plan.
For example, today rancid The Graun’s reporting even less about their scotland region than their normal SNP bad, with a tiny Sturgeon bad thing, at the bottom of their uk web page, next to their weather forecast and benefits thing.
Considering Scots may actually hold the swing Remain vote for teamGB, its another very sneaky creepy day at the Graun.
So get out and vote Scotland, even just to piss off our imperial masters, who really wish we didn’t exist and they could go on their hols in their Scotland, knowing they own Scotland, forever and ever.
Rancid does mention their scotland region today, in their holiday section, for mountaineering. What a bunch.
The UK has the most undemocratic system in Europe.
Elected dictatorships through FPTP. Unelected upper house. Privilege and entitlement built into the fabric of government.
How does anyone think Brexit will improve this situation?
Simple answer IMO, those who support Brexit are generally the same ones who see democracy as a problem rather than a solution to anything!
I notice the faint siren calls not to vote !
Vote as you wish but if independence for Scotland is your heart’s desire you must vote REMAIN and support the SNP leadership
Remember how the same siren calls at the Scottish election diverted the second vote as it was not too important as the SNP would still win. The rest and the blow from that is with us.
Do not be conned to provide ammunition for the Brit Nat Unionists . Vote REMAIN.
Saw this in ‘The National’ this morning:
Kezia Dugdale’s review of Scottish Labour savaged by ‘frankly raging’ former MP Gemma Doyle
https://archive.is/ReHAq
The article on labour hame::
A big messy family which is rebuilding… 🙂
https://archive.is/sypYr
Breeks
Im not sure i agree with craig murrays udi option, but where i do agree with him is the change in stance of the EU wrt scottish indy. they kept schtum during indyref1, but if Nicola asks for their opinion they may well offer it to her, seeing nicola meeting merkle and hollande is a game changer. Even Diagio has already said that if brexit, they would not support no in indyref2.
Imagine an indy ref where the RBS and HBOS come out in support of yes as well?
maybe ruthie, kez and rennie will support no after a brexit, but mr tunnocks may be more difficult to convince.
after brexit, support for no could well dissapear
@Tam Jardine,
Liked the “tethered to the death-star for ever…” analogy.
Maybe not?!
Red 2: “Look at the *size* of that thing!”
(#Brexit out Vote)
Red Leader: “Cut the chatter, Red 2. Accelerate to attack speed!”
(#Indyref2)
schrodingers cat @1200
” what will convince no supporting remain voters to support indyref2, is drip drip of companies like Toyota cutting staff, closing plants etc.”
While I agree with most of what you said I’m not sure that is true. I have a couple of close sets of friends who will vote remain but they are staunch unionists, voted no in the referendum and never will they vote for an independent Scotland.
They are too comfortable in their own bubble. All of them worked in local government, have a very good pension which rises every year, plus their state pension.
They don’t care about Toyota closing a factory in England, they didn’t care about the steelworks in Scotland either. These events are nowhere near them so it’s almost like it never happens, except when it’s the SNP’s fault, like the closure of the Forth bridge earlier, the Calmac business and the steel closures.
These people will never vote Yes no matter what. I’ve tried but they just don’t agree.
I think it was “capella” who said further back that a constant drip drip of positive information about how Scotland is doing would be better. How the NHS is doing for example. Must be ok now because I’ve never heard that Bradford woman for weeks.
Famous15
Seconded. Vote REMAIN for Scotland. And the next time you get a chance vote for Scotland. And the next time … you get the picture.
I’m no rocket scientist.
sandycraig: I’m afraid the Bradford lassie was on the radio with a bad news spin on GP numbers. Too many part time reducing effective overall numbers. No comparison with rUK, just SNPbaaad.
@ sandycraig
I have a couple of close sets of friends who will vote remain but they are staunch unionists, voted no in the referendum and never will they vote for an independent Scotland.
me too, but i never said we would or need to convince all no remain supporters, we never could or will or need to, we only need to convince SOME of them. not all no remain supporters are called Mason Boyne 🙂
They don’t care about Toyota closing a factory in England, they didn’t care about the steelworks in Scotland either. These events are nowhere near them so it’s almost like it never happens,
true, but this news will be reported on the bbc, ie, orlando is far away too, but affects people here.
Except when it’s the SNP’s fault, like the closure of the Forth bridge earlier, the Calmac business and the steel closures.
many people are connned by such snpbad etc, but their ability to affect people is lessening for much of the population, you can cry wolf too much, and as i said, if rbs and hbos come out for yes2, that will also be reported
These people will never vote Yes no matter what. I’ve tried but they just don’t agree.
yes, THESE people wont, but not all 55% of the Nos are like these people. we need about 10-20% to turn and we win
I think it was “capella” who said further back that a constant drip drip of positive information about how Scotland is doing would be better.
which is the effect for a yes2 that support for yes from the eu and diagio would bring
@ sandycraig says at 10:19 am …. ”Great post, I like being reminded of all these facts. I’m going to print that off and enclose it with all the WBBS I’ll be delivering to a selection of NO voters. Make them sit up and think about the future and not themselves maybe.”
Yeah and that was just a sample SC. The list of ‘incompetencies’ could fill a UK Unionist version of ‘War and Peace’. And we’ve suffered this for over three hundred years now: More so over the last hundred years with the power ding-dong between Labour and Tories (Liberals thrown in now and again) spending their whole term in office blaming each other for the last lot of botch-ups. If it was you or I we wouldn’t last a day in the job or would be lolling in prison. I’ve got a more comprehensive list somewhere SC and will try to dig it out and post it later.
………………………………………………………………
@ Tam Jardine says at 10:37 am …. ”Just read your post on Christina Grimmie. Words fail me at the barbarism in the world. Pointless, senseless, meaningless slaughter of a beautiful, talented young woman. Who knows what it will take before the USA changes its attitude and position on gun control if indeed it ever gets its act together.”
One of my nieces (and family) in America knew Christina and her brother and they are all absolutely devastated. I hope no one minds (or if you do just pass on by) but I’d like to post another couple of her songs. The first is a Whitney Houston cover which highlights what an amazing voice she has (had).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhgcrCbr3Ao
and the second … well just call it poignant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzseOqwn8oo
………………………………………………………………….
@ Breeks says at 10:37 am …. ”I get increasingly frustrated that too many of us still don’t see the wood for the trees, and still believe that victory next time around rests upon a better explanation of the pro-Indy arguments; having a case for the pound, having a counter argument ready for pensions.”
I’m SURE Nicola et al will have a solid case prepared to cover all of the issues that let us down last time round Breeks. And who knows what she (and others) have up their sleeves?
”I am uncomfortable about a UDI, especially a unilateral Declaration of Independence which came so soon after a No vote, but I think Craig Murray might be making a good call. A “careful” UDI, where it is England leaving us, for us to remain where we already are in Europe, has a logic to it, especially as Craig suggests, when ratified with a follow up referendum. Essentially, Scotland hasn’t left the Union, the Union left Scotland.”
UDI is out of the question as it could start a Civil War, imo. But what do you make of the following article Breeks?
…………………………………………..
Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp: ”A Brexit against the wishes of the Scottish people would only be a trigger if it matched with support a majority support for independence…………….
Following a forced Brexit the options available are not as limited as you might think. Assuming a mandate from a Scottish Remain vote of over 55%, preferably closer to 60%, then the Scottish Parliament should be asked to support a motion asserting it’s right to hold a referendum if the majority of the Scottish Parliament vote for it. The Scottish Government should then reject the Brexit result as not applying to Scotland and call for separate negotiations with the EU. When Greenland (an autonomous part of Denmark) left the EU the Danes (being the member state) appointed a negotiator to represent Greenland, in Scotland’s case the UK’s lead negotiator for Scotland should be a team led by the First Minister. That team would then negotiate the terms of Scotland to remain an EU member state if it votes for independence prior to the UK leaving the EU. In other words, Scotland becomes the continuing state, inheriting the UK’s membership of the EU on the basis that Scotland is currently a member, meets all EU regulations and membership criteria and has democratically voted to stay a member in a nationwide referendum. Ipso facto we are EU members and cannot be removed from EU membership as long as we are in the process of leaving the UK at the time the UK leaves the EU. There would have to be some renegotiation of the terms of membership but exemptions from Schengen would stand as we would be maintaining open borders with the rest of the UK and Ireland and we would not qualify for joining the Euro anyway. Simultaneously the Scottish Parliament should open up negotiations on joining EFTA so that we can maintain common market access through that route if required…….
So the options would likely be stay in UK but outside the EU or Independence with either EU or EFTA membership depending on whats best for Scotland. This would have the benefit of turning the 176,000 EU nationals who voted 60% No in 2014 into 70%+ Yes voters…..
I asked some leading Scottish Lawyers with an interest in constitutional affairs about Scotland become the continuing state for EU membership? James Aitken says “Everyone seems to assume that in the event of the UK voting to leave but Scotland voting to stay that the only negotiations taking place will be between the EU and the UK. That blinkered thinking ignores the political reality of the situation we would be in. What is to stop the Scottish Government beginning its own negotiations with the EU? ’’
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/forced-brexit-changes-scotlands-constitutional-debate/
@hoss
if arseholes had wings, westminster would be an airport…
2001….”oh look, it’s full of stars..”
Where on earth is Corbyn?
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-13/gordon-brown-eu-referendum-labour/
This really is an amazing feat.
http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Scotland-exceeds-2020-climate-targets-2575.aspx
Brown was “pivotal” says ITV in stopping Scottish independence. Makes sense really. But old JC should be up there on their Brown pivot too.
“From now until 10pm on June 23 we will not rest and I will not stop explaining why nine million Labour voters have most to gain from remaining in the EU,” he will say in a speech in Leicester.
Mr Brown – whose late intervention in the Scottish referendum campaign was considered pivotal – will vow to make the “positive” case for a Remain vote.
Britain will be in “pole position” to champion workers’ rights and create new jobs when it takes the rotating presidency of the EU in 2017, he will say.
call me dave @ 12:14
Thanks for the link.
Just read the article.
Former MP rejected by the electorate Gemma Doyle.
“If the Scottish Labour Party decides to be separate, then the UK Labour Party is going to need to set up a Scottish branch for the members who want to stay with Labour. Then we really will have a branch office,” she said.
She added: “Where we do rely on the national party is for money and non-financial support (including in the form of amazing Labour Party organisers). All our campaign tools, our membership system, the constitution unit are developed and run centrally, for the benefit of the Labour Party in every part of England, in Wales and in Scotland. Long before UK Labour’s recent fundraising woes, Scottish Labour was finding donors’ doors closed to us. So whoever is pushing this agenda better have a good answer for where the extra money is going to come from as we wave the rest of our Labour family goodbye.”
They are relying on money from Head Office to keep the Branch Office Accounting Unit sinking ship afloat.
Hell mend them. They deserve all they get.
10%-20% swing/switch of NO voters to YES? Hmmm.
In a nutshell..ONE IN TWENTY.. switching to YES..would make it a draw.
@Schrodingers Cat
Worth considering that much of UK’s trade deficit is with member countries of the EU. I would find it bewildering to think ANY government considering the global economic malaise we are in just now would seek to harm the ability of its domestic businesses to export to the UK.
There is much in the way of project fear at work and it has only done harm to the remain campaign.
The following article is quite a good read although I don’t agree with its conclusions…
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=33017
A vote to remain gives a bloody nose to exactly Who ?
England votes out Scotland votes in immediately triggers a second referendum vote says Who ?
The chances of winning a second referendum during all the confusion of Britain’s Exit negotiations are what exactly ?
It appears a lot of you folks here are a little confused its a referendum on stay or leave the EU not a prelude to a second independence vote one doesn’t necessary follow the other
BBC tv and BBC NORTH BRITANICA
British hooligans yet English victims
GP not working Full time–snp bad. GP private contractor and can opt out — who did this –liebour
I liked that bit Shrod. and Scottiedog.
My evaluation of the Catalonian position is that it should develop its own independent nation and use its own currency to build on its prosperity. It certainly has the economic structure in which to prosper materially.
Britain is in a better position than Catalonia, because as a result of the foresight by Margaret Thatcher they avoided entry into the monetary system.
Yes Schrodingers Cat, I’m not sold either, but I do find it extraordinary that two years after a vote of independence and on the brink of a possible exit from a European community most of us want to stay in, there remain so many “grey” arguments which nominally support or strengthen our position, but no thorough and detailed analysis of what any of it actually means.
I keep harping on about the AXA vs Lord Advocate ruling because that says to me that laws decreed by the government in Holyrood cannot be contested by the UK’s Supreme Court for the incontestable reason it has no jurisdiction, and never can have any, because sovereignty lies with the Scottish people in perpetuity. If the Supreme Court has no jurisdiction to interfere with Scottish laws, then prey tell, from what source does Westminster draw it’s jurisdiction from, and assume the sovereign power to “reign over us”? I repeat, hot on the heels of our referendum, why is there no definitive extrapolation of the these principles which must surely have profound significance across a whole spectrum of issues?
Why are we content to remind ourselves that Scottish Sovereignty rests with the people, but yet pursue no definitive application for whatever it is such capacity empowers us to do?
Can ANYBODY give me a definitive confirmation that we, the people of Scotland, are not standing in a Derren Brown type prison of our own making, but a prison without bars on the window or bolts on the door? We were just told to stand here, and for 300 years we have dutifully obliged, and accepted it all without question or appropriate representation??? Frankly, that just doesn’t sound like a situation which a sovereign people ought to be finding itself in.
How many of our laws are based upon the premise that Westminster’s opinion commands sovereignty over our own? Has anybody thoroughly considered the ramifications?
So which is bullshit? The Scots people being sovereign? Or Westminster usurping thatsovereignty for three centuries?
Who, specifically, is qualified to prove this equation one way or the other? Yet, isn’t that specifically and explicitly what the Supreme Court actually has done, and formally recognised in the AXA ruling? Scotland’s Lord Advocate stood up and defended the sovereignty of Scotland’s people, had that status vindicated in the UK’s Supreme Court, then as far as I can see, stuffed the whole affair away in a library, out of sight, out of mind.
Is there nobody else as curious as I am to know more??? Isn’t that the cliff hanger of all cliff hangars, and with more than a little relevance to a country striving for its independence?
Just a quote from above article by Aussie economist Bill Mitchell..
“Which country do you think has the highest share of its exports into the EU? Britain or Switzerland?
By 2014, 44.4 per cent of Britain’s total exports went to the EU (noting this is an overstatement given the ‘Rotterdam Effect’ – the figure is closer to 41 per cent).
In 2014, 59.2 per cent of Switzerland’s total exports went to the EU and they ran a surplus against the EU, unlike Britain (Source).
I don’t want to suggest that a trade surplus is a desirable target – it clearly means that a nation is giving away more of its real resources than it is getting back from abroad. In some cases, that might not be as problematic if the exports are bits of iron ore and the imports are flash consumer items. But generally, exports are a cost to local residents (they could be using those resources themselves) and imports are a benefit.
The point is that Switzerland maintains its complete fiscal sovereignty by staying out of the EU and doesn’t appear to be shunned by the EU Member States.
And when you think about the trade deficit that Britain runs with the rest of the EU, the day that it exited, it would become the EU’s largest export market.
So, pure self-interest would prevent the remaining 27 EU Member States from trying to ‘punish’ Britain in some way, not to mention that fact that all nations are bound by World Trade Organisation rules that prevent discriminating trade arrangements.
It is just far fetched to think that these flows of goods and services and income payments will be seriously affected at all by an exit.
And if Britain needs another example of how staying out of restrictive arrangements such as the Eurozone and the EU, in general, then it just has to look northward to Iceland, which suffered the worst banking collapse of all (courtesy of ridiculous era of neo-liberal policies), yet came out of it the best.”
Again I disagree with the conclusions of the article because it’s author isn’t thinking about some of the positive protective laws which are a buffer against the London hegemony but it is interesting reading. For me iScot would have an arms length agreement with the EU like Switzerland.
The same people that advocate for an un-elected HoL as a check and balance on the HoC are the ones set against the EU providing some of those same checks. At least to a minimal extent the UK gets to elect some of the EU parliament by PR. That PR part is why we have the embarrassment of UKIP representation, or rather the democratically fair opportunity to see just how big their fuckwittery is in action.
Yes EU directives originate from the Commission. Which ignores the fact that it consists of commissioners nominated by the member states as their representative. So straight away you need a majority of members to agree before it even gets to the parliament.
Then once the Parliament have decided on laws they issue directives which it’s up to each member state to implement as they see fit.
@ schrodingers cat says at 12:16 pm …. ”Even Diagio has already said that if brexit, they would not support no in indyref2. Imagine an indy ref where the RBS and HBOS come out in support of yes as well?”
There’s that of course. No scaremongering from the banks, supermarkets and so on. Imagine too if you had a company in rUK and you wanted to remain in the EU wouldn’t you move your company or at least your ‘nameplate’ to Scotland? In 2014 some companies in the North of England stated that if we got our Independence they would move their business over the border.
Then imagine alongside this, as per Gordon McIntyre Kemp’s opinion, that to stay in the EU we would have to have our Independence of course. The companies / employees that ‘move’ to Scotland would surely then vote for Independence. Would have to to stay in the EU.
Then there are the 60% of 176,000 EU nationals in Scotland who voted No last time round. I could see 80% plus voting yes in Indy2. What of the EU nationals down south? Would many of them move to Scotland and vote Yes? Then there are the rUK relocators. Around 400,000 (at LAST count …. eyes rolling) …. 74% voted No. Surely many of them would change their minds and vote Yes especially if they are Europhiles first and foremost or say saw their beloved England going to the dogs.
And of course if we get our Independence some of the Britnats would throw in the towel and go home …. so an added bonus.
Geezo … I’m getting (myself) all excited!
In the event of a second Scottish Independence vote the Clydesdale Bank has declared it would more than likely support the proposition qualified upon EU Re-admission which they say would be a strong possibility
schrodingers cat says:
“after brexit, support for no could well dissapear”
‘Disappear’, no. That would be hoping for too much. Reduce, IMO, definitely.
I have said before, there is no way 55% of Scots voted for Tory rule. Half of that simply didn’t see it that way. (The other half probably did!)
However, should Brexit begin it unfold, it should concentrate the minds of a lot of NO voters again.
Many voted because they were happy with the status quo and the benefits it gave them personally. Their status quo is evaporating and that will accelerate with Brexit.
Many voted because of being feart of change and an unknown future. Now they have to ask, Indy or the insecurity of UK isolation?
Many voted because they held out hope of a Labour gov in WM. They should forget that idea, now! And, those who didn’t see Tory rule coming. Well, they may have to chose – Scotland and no more Tories, or UK Toryland.
Many EU citizens voted NO for fear Scotland would be out of the EU. They will now vote Yes to stay in!
And finally, the gullible. More of them must be seeing through the relentless scaremongering and lies.
@ Breeks says at 1:19 pm …. ”Can ANYBODY give me a definitive confirmation that we, the people of Scotland, are not standing in a Derren Brown type prison of our own making, but a prison without bars on the window or bolts on the door? We were just told to stand here, and for 300 years we have dutifully obliged, and accepted it all without question or appropriate representation??? Frankly, that just doesn’t sound like a situation which a sovereign people ought to be finding itself in.”
Isn’t that term just the crux of the matter Breeks …. Sovereign People? We tested the water in 2014, broke with the ‘dutifully obliged’ stance and tried to make our escape from this prison following 300 years of subjugation, however 55% of the Sovereign People of Scotland voted No in 2014 (if you include rUK relocators, foreign students, migrant workers, holiday home owners, those on a short vacation etc etc).
In other words 55% of those ‘deemed’ to be the Sovereign People of Scotland voted Yes to staying with the hellish Union…. remaining in prison.
Eh, except for those who went home after short term working, studying or having a wee holiday.
Speak of the devil
Jeremy Corbyn attacks ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’ Johnson and Farage
Labour leader says Brexit camp telling ‘outright lies’ when it claims more money would be available for NHS”
That’s Graun. They must have got Brown to lead them after what’s happened to SLabour, since Brown interventionerised in Scotland 2014. Likes of Brown and Darling were never coming back but Labour still need to be elected in England.
If its the same ballot box fall out for Lab as SLab, as they sink into Scottish history, at least JC cant be blamed. No wonder Brown looks completely bonkers.
I want to break free ….. don’t we all?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw0tGVxUIbg
It would seem that many of those Yoons supporting Remain, in the event of Leave would still opt for The UK Union to endure and would prefer to all go down together as one than choose Scotlands lifeboat of Independence
I wonder if they think the rich and well off sitting on their personal memory foam lined cushions in the Toffs lifeboat will throw them a line as they allow our country to be drowned while they’re still singing “There’ll always be an England and they will suck us dry”
@Breeks.
I think the reason that you didn’t get an answer to your AXA question recently was that no-one, unless he/she were a constitutional lawyer, felt able to offer a definitive response, although there must be lurkers on here who would be able to.
I’m sure we all as lay persons have experience of thinking a legal point is quite clear until The Law gets hold of it, as well as quite a lot of your money (smiles ruefully).
The thought that we could have been in a prison with an open door all this time doesn’t really bear thinking about. Surely the SG has been fully briefed about the sovereignty issue?
Some very interesting comments on this thread today. Petra’s bright-side thinking has rather cheered me up. I still get really down about our situation when I go abroad, have to use a UK passport and have to explain I’m Scottish. Fortunately last year I was in Sicily, and if ever a people know about colonisation it’s them. Contrary to the cliché, I found them friendly, charming and full of whatever the Italian is for joie de vivre. And the landscape and food are stunning.
Anyhow, I was talking to our tour guide in Castelbuono (where they filmed the school scene in Cinema Paradiso) and she asked about the referendum. After my reply she said, “Yes, it’s a terrible thing to lose your freedom.” I think her sympathy had a worse effect on me than any incomprehension/contempt.
And so we go on.
Nothin’ else furrit, as an old friend used to say.
More Slab weirdness. Why Kez campaigns in Tooting today, and not EU camping either, is another teamGB mystery. If Holyrood wasn’t D’Hondt, Dugdale would now be job hunting too. Maybe she is. Ruth MacThatcher’s also marked for greatness in England.
Kezia Dugdale ?@kezdugdale 4h
An absolute pleasure to do my bit for @DrRosena in the Tooting by-election this morning
I really don’t care if we are in the EU or not or if we are Independent or not, cause neither is going to happen to many scaredy pants all over Scotland and England. What will happen for the next 100 years Scotland will always be part of the UK and the UK will always be part of the EU, because nobody has any vision of a better future out of the UK or EU, political bullshit. I will be voting out of the EU, for the working class poor who are struggling to find work I know I am one of them and I aint work shy. As for Scottish Indy get over yourselves you lot have no chance. I voted for Indy and will again but it is a dream and nothing else.
Yes Petra, in a way it is, except 2014 felt like 300 years of subjugation before the people of Scotland got so much as a say in the matter. If we, the people, are sovereign, then isn’t that one massive 300 year long con trick, and potential misappropriation of 300 years of power, assets and resources taken without our explicit consent?
All those generations of government we endured with no mandate to govern Scotland; the Thatcher years… All the skills and assets we had taken from us…
Even supposing we don’t look back in retrospect, what bearing does it have looking forward? The U.K. Government has no mandate to govern Scotland, and our Westminster MP’s are no more or less sovereign than our MSP’s in Holyrood. Forget Devolution, the only power Westminster has over us is the power we delegate to it.
heedtracker
My guess at why is Dugdale campaigning in Tooting, this is the latest tactic by Slab to try to save itself from extinction. If Slabs go to England to campaign then their cunning plan means that more English Labs can come to Scotland to campaign and funds can be used from the UK Lab to support Slab, and not one of us will notice!
https://www.supremecourt.uk/
The Supreme Court is the final court of appeal in the UK for civil cases, and for criminal cases from England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Note that they don’t have jurisdiction in criminal cases only civil.
Now as to where the right of Westminster or Holyrood to govern comes from in Scotland it’s only through our elected representatives who we delegate the authority to exercise our shared sovereignty. Technically Holyrood is not actually a devolved administration and the referendum forming it is the result of a choice either by the electorate of Scotland or its representatives in conjunction with the sovereign power of the rUK to reallocate the administration of some areas to a more local body.
Kezia helping in a London by-election; are there not any local folks that could do it?
Brian Powell says:
14 June, 2016 at 2:59 pm
heedtracker
Kez might pop up on Newsnight tonight, SNP baaaading it with English Remain Lab MP’s.
Its a grand day out for her, hustings in Tooting, West end shopping, high level networking, swanky multi billion BBC tv studios, tasty. But they’re probably trying to work on using the same kind of damage SLab sustained in our referendum on Sturgeon, after they crapped all over Scotland for BetterTogether.
Its also probably why Sturgeon gave Bojo such a hard austerity toryboy time in that last tv debate too. Same debate that old Corbyn couldn’t be arsed attending.
Something really stinky going on in ed and blue tory BBC Slab land.
Where it gets really interesting, is whether Westminster has any power to decide which matters are devolved.
If Scotland was to ignore Westminster, and set up its own State broadcaster, speaking as the elected voice of the sovereign people of Scotland, Westminster could not stop it happening. They might scream and shout, and retaliate in other ways, but they couldn’t stop us by denying consent we don’t actually need anyway.
If Scotland wanted to cease North Sea Oil production, then that would be the sovereign choice of the people, and Westminster would have to obey, or compromise our sovereignty.
Andy D @ 2.52
Aye but for some of us it’s a dream that will never die, or a flicker of light that will become a beautiful day sometime.
If it never happens in the time I have left, so what, but my bairns will carry on the same dream as me.
@Petra, “I’ve got a more comprehensive list somewhere SC and will try to dig it out and post it later.”
Can I second the request for this more comnprehensive list? I found the first one pretty hard-hitting by itself, but it is always a good idea to have some backup material, too.
“Andy”
Have a think about the former Soviet Union countries, Estonia, Latvia and all the rest. They had a dream as well but were terribly suppressed, but when the chance came they grasped it with both hands.
We had our chance and blew it but it’s only half time.
You couldn’t get in these countries before and now they are wonderful tourist destinations.
spotted today in the National, well said that man.
THE cultural inferiority complex known as the “Scottish Cringe” has been paraded for all to see by the SNP leadership during the EU referendum. From the First Minister downwards, we have had a steady stream of pronouncements designed to sap the confidence and will of Scotland’s people. Daily we are told how Scotland is dependent on the EU for workers’ and human rights and environmental protection, but nothing from the SNP to state that an independent Scotland could have the best workers and human rights and environmental protection in the world. Further evidence of the inferiority complex is clear to all by SNP support for uncontrolled immigration from the EU into Scotland – an SNP version of Scotland being “too wee, too poor and too stupid”.
It is an indictment of SNP-controlled Scotland that we apparently need so many EU berry pickers, security guards, coffee baristas, NHS cleaners and porters, library assistants, bus drivers and railway workers. That Scottish employers prefer EU immigrants to Scots for unskilled and semi-skilled jobs should be a source of national shame rather than the fatuous nonsense from the SNP about “healthy population growth” and how so many EU immigrants are essential for the prosperity of Scots. Nicola Sturgeon paraded her “Scottish Cringe” by standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the Tories on television and publicly undermined the confidence of Scots by stating that without the EU, Scotland cannot be a prosperous country.
However, working- and lower-middle-class Scots have already made up their minds that a prosperous future is best served by leaving the EU and regaining national sovereignty and self-respect, something which is alien to the SNP
A wee bit harsh but so much of this article is true to us POOR WORKING CLASS fighting for a bit of the cake.
There’s a lot more trolling going on here than there used to be. Like people rubbishing independence but who voted Yes (aye right). Someone’s making an effort.
Another thought… If the SNP’s voice in Westminster carries the sovereign authority of Scotland’s people, and Westminster’s voice does not, doesn’t that give the SNP the power of veto or opting out over any issue affecting Scotland?
The nuclear option of withdrawing 54+ MPs from Westminster is always available to the SNP. The 3 Amigos would then have to explain how they represent just over 50% of those who voted despite the verdict of the UK as a whole prior to that that AV was not a suitable method of electing MPs.
i smell kippers they really pong
Vote leave Scotland and we will give you immigration control or a bit of it whopper lie.
Hey kippers i would not worry about us you should worry about postal votes,and you dafties should change your name to the English independence party lol
@Andy D
A wee bit harsh…
So according to the autor the FM displayed Scottish cringe? Oh and stood shoulder to shoulder with the tories?
And of course this author doesn’t have their own axe to grind then?
As for their claims, well I’m sure the author is aware that the leave campaign is tory/UKIP led. ‘Course they do. Also I don’t recall the FM stating that Scotland couldn’t survive without the EU. The SNP are for sure pro EU, but I’ve never heard either the current incumbent or her predecessor say Scotland couldn’t survive without… etc.
As for SNP controlled? Where the hell does the author think we live to use that line? The SNP didn’t create our declining and aging population problem or the emmigration of our youth over the years. The SNP earned their mandate under the very worst possible circumstances and currently continue to do so near as I can see.
If the rest of the column’s rhetoric is of that similar vein, I’ll pass on looking for it.
@Andy D
Of course when you come on here spewing out great dollops of pish about what the SNP control and what they do not, you’re talking to all the wrong people because we know exactly what the SNP does control, and because of proud tit wipes like you it’s not very damn much
If you must troll your “Facts” try at least inventing better ones and give us more of a laugh instead of
Nicla did it, Nicla Baad
Andy.D says:
14 June, 2016 at 3:29 pm
spotted today in the National, well said that man.
It would be if any of it was true. It’s mince.
@ Andy D.
I smell shiiiiite!!
Well the EBC are still calling English Thugs as British today.
@AndyD – Aye Right!
OT
Seems the Tuba player is leaving Scottish Labour.
http://labourhame.com/leaving-for-pastures-new/
@AndyD
” As for Scottish Indy get over yourselves you lot have no chance. I voted for Indy and will again but it is a dream and nothing else.”
It sound like you have a touch of the Scottish Cringe there yersel man!
Andy.D,
If you really are working class yourself, you are clearly suffering from a reality bypass. In what possible way does supporting the worst of the Tory privateers do anything for anyone like you? What on earth have they done in government since they got into power in London that has ever been in your interest?
I truly pity you if you genuinely believe any of that Leaver tosh, eg. “undemocratic EU” from people who idolise a Parliament which is stuffed with literally several hundreds of unelected decaying old political castoffs.
But I suspect you’re just another kipper troll having a wee laugh.
Iain More says:
14 June, 2016 at 4:09 pm
“Well the EBC are still calling English Thugs as British today.”
Not on their website, where they make it clear that it is English supporters not British. The term British has been used where they are talking about arrests/detentions because Northern Irish supporters have been arrested/detained as well as English supporters.
I don’t have a tv licence so I can’t say about what’s shown on tv, but what’s written on their website clearly says English supporters.
Andy d
True colours showing now eh!
Many of the berry farms in Fife have had European workers for many years. Some of these farms employ hundreds, and many of them have the same workers coming back every year.
The reason for that is they are reliable and good grafters. One farm owner told me a few years ago they had more problems with locals turning up for work than any polish person.
After the fruit season is finished many of them go south to Englandshire, and work on apple and vegetable farms.
Why are there so many, well it’s fekn obvious, the locals do not want to put in the hard work.
To summarise, I was poor working class as a boy. I think I have done ok for myself and family although I still class myself as working class, but anything I ever got was from working hard all my life, saving a bit and not pissing it up a close on a Saturday night, then greeting about having nowt the next day.
Hmmm crawling out of the woodwork today I see. Shame they picked the wrong site to try to influence. “Voted yes & will again”
Aye right!
I do love that comment as it allows the expression of scorn/disbelief whilst on the face of it being polite.
I didn’t mean the nuclear option of walking out Orri, I meant a veto whereby legislation might be rendered inapplicable for Scotland if the Scottish block of MP’s didn’t like it. Only Scottish MSPs speak for the sovereign people of Scotland, so any bill which doesn’t earn their approval does not carry sovereign approval, and nobody apart from Scottish MP’s can give it sovereign approval.
I suppose it’s similar to the UK’s veto for Europe manifesting itself as Scotland’s veto for the UK. It doesn’t need to be won by concession or agreement, its where our sovereignty lies which wins the trick.
With some thought, I’m sure it could secure Scotland a veto, but that might just be the tip of the iceberg.
What Andy has quoted is from the letters page. https://archive.is/D6Hq9
However, working- and lower-middle-class Scots have already made up their minds that a prosperous future is best served by leaving the EU and regaining national sovereignty and self-respect, something which is alien to the SNP
Begs the question as to what the writer means by the word nation because if it’s not what the SNP means then it means the UK rather than Scotland.
Even if it means Scotland there’s a slight problem in the timing. Pointless removing powers from the EU for them to be kept by Westminster. Even more so if Cameron, however odious, is replaced by Johnston.
Someone mistakingly believes, “a troll a day keeps Indy at bay”.
LOL, oh Christ all SNP cheerleaders here, lets agree with the SNP Government on everything they say, ba ba springs to mind. Get real we are doomed in or out of the EU and UKOK so say all of us. Good luck on being part of the UKOK +EU you reap what you sow, ring a bell.
Someone mistakingly believes, “a troll a day keeps Indy at bay”.
Anything SNP on Facebook is covered with stuff like Andy D’s up there at them moment. So its probably a taste of the next SNP bad campaign. Scotland didn’t ask for this EU ref but it is going to be used to monster the SNP and Scottish democracy, what ever the result.
One way of smoking yoonsters like the above is to explain that in fact, Scotland and England are two different countries and they do not like that at all. Tantrums and abuse, its the UKOK way, right Andy D?
Inverclyder,
On the subject of tuba players leaving the sinking ship, that process has only just begun, methinks. I notice though that the remaining crew are starting to break out the weapons. Ex-MP Gemma Doyle is quoted in today’s National as reminding restless SLabbers tempted to take an independent line in their current review that’s it’s London who control all the resources, including the purse-strings.
So now is starkly revealed (as if we didn’t already know it) that what Scottish Labour really means by “Better Together” is merely their own narrow party interest, not anything remotely relevant to you or me.
The quicker that ship of fools sinks, the better for all of us.
Andy.D says:
14 June, 2016 at 4:55 pm
LOL, oh Christ all SNP cheerleaders here, lets agree with the SNP Government on everything they say, ba ba springs to mind
Right on cue:D
Robert @ 4.58 pm
“Gemma Doyle”. Now there’s a political giant whose presence Westminster will undoubtedly be missing.
Any doubts we benefit from the EU? Read this.
Gordon really does produce the goods. I reckon we owe him a debt of gratitude, for the work in influencing business and others.
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/post-truth-world/
The greatest trick the yoons pulled,was convincing Scotland they didn’t exist,not so anymore.
We see you,we hear you,we expose you,we mock you.
As long as it takes,yoons,as long as it takes.
🙂
Who knew?
Until now I’ve been discounting the consequences for indy if Scotland gets unwillingly dragged-out of the EU by the little Englanders, but after looking at that article kindly linked by Valerie, I’m beginning to wonder.
If Brexit wins, in the exit negotiations over the two years or so thereafter, the vastly over-inflated Leave bubble is inevitably going to burst as grim reality dawns. The fishermen will get sold out yet again, for example. What will be the reaction then?
We had no notion what would happen in the aftermath of the indyref, and we haven’t any clue either how Scots attitudes might shift in the aftermath of the EUref. But it might be a whole lot more than just Henry McLeish and The Herald. Things could get very interesting indeed as people begin to realise the extent of the giant con that’s been perpetrated.
Did somebody just call me an SNP cheerleader?
@Breeks yep we’ve all got the ra-ra skirts and pom-poms!
Breeks said:
Try to get over it. Have a wee lie down. You’ll feel better again soon. =grin=
@orri says:
14 June, 2016 at 3:44 pm
The nuclear option of withdrawing 54+ MPs from Westminster is always available to the SNP.
Given that, even if it wanted to, (not likely), a Tory Government will not get legislation through the Commons/Lords to enable Holyrood to hold an Indy Ref. 2, all the SNP need do is have all 56 MPs resign from Westminster AND also resign as the Scottish Government, forcing a snap Scottish General Election/Mass Westminster By-elections on a Manifesto pledge to repeal the 1707 Acts and Articles of Union with England AND negotiate directly with the EC for membership of the EU.
You don’t need a referendum OR permission from Westminster if the Manifesto states clearly what you’re getting if you place an X in the box marked SNP.
Bring it on!
@Breeks
😀 LOL
Robert J. Sutherland says:
“the vastly over-inflated Leave bubble is inevitably going to burst as grim reality dawns”
Yes. The future negotiated relationship with the EU is probably going to include all the things the Leave voters were against, and a load of negative things they didn’t see coming.
As you say fishing access will be given away, again. And free trade almost certainly means continued free movement of labour.
galamcennalath says:
schrodingers cat says:
“after brexit, support for no could well dissapear”
‘Disappear’, no. That would be hoping for too much. Reduce, IMO, definitely.
I have said before, there is no way 55% of Scots voted for Tory rule. Half of that simply didn’t see it that way. (The other half probably did!)
However, should Brexit begin it unfold, it should concentrate the minds of a lot of NO voters again.
gala, i was thinking of support from no by companies like hbos, rbs etc
ot folks
in all the excitement, spare a thought for the EU nationals, many who are married to scots and or have lived here for years, are genuinly scared by a brexit. i cant blame them, i dont trust their future with bojo either
@ Inverclyder says at 4:18 pm …. ”Seems the Tuba player is leaving Scottish Labour.”
http://labourhame.com/leaving-for-pastures-new/
Did he get his books? Nae money left in the pot?
@ breeks says at 2:57 pm …. ”Yes Petra, in a way it is, except 2014 felt like 300 years of subjugation before the people of Scotland got so much as a say in the matter. If we, the people, are sovereign, then isn’t that one massive 300 year long con trick, and potential misappropriation of 300 years of power, assets and resources taken without our explicit consent?”
”All those generations of government we endured with no mandate to govern Scotland; the Thatcher years… All the skills and assets we had taken from us…
Even supposing we don’t look back in retrospect, what bearing does it have looking forward? The U.K. Government has no mandate to govern Scotland, and our Westminster MP’s are no more or less sovereign than our MSP’s in Holyrood. Forget Devolution, the only power Westminster has over us is the power we delegate to it.”
…………………………………………
Sovereign authority, will and / or choice of the Scottish people will relate to a MAJORITY of people in the first instance Breeks. Getting control over broadcasting and so on would have to come after we get our Independence….. following a majority of the Sovereign people actually indicating that they want Independence.
”The only power Westminster has over us is the power we delegate to it.”
To be honest Breeks I doubt it’s quite as simple as that, although I’m not a solicitor we do have lawyers in the family, qualified to practise Scottish AND English Law….. desperate to get ‘out’ …. they all voted Yes. There’s also the group known as Lawyersforyes (or whatever). Any number of MPs at Holyrood and Westminster are solicitors, as has been the case over decades such as the brilliant Willie MacRae.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_MacRae
They normally specialise in a particular area, say Corporate Law, but socialise, debate / discuss with solicitors who practise in any number of other areas. They have access to Legal papers, books, journals and can easily contact their prior Professors for advice, some of whom will be experts say in relation to the Constitution. You have Scottish (and even English) lawyers living abroad, in Eire etc that detest Westminster and if there was anything that could be done, over time, it WOULD have been done imo.
Take for example the devolution Referendum when the vote came back in our favour (52% to 48%). We lost due to a condition that was put in place that was, that 40% of the TOTAL electorate should vote in favour in order to make it valid. But the turnout was only of 63.6%, so only 32.9% of the electorate voted “Yes”. The Scotland Act 1978 was consequently repealed in March 1979 by a vote of 301–206 in Parliament. In the wake of the referendum the supporters of the bill conducted a protest campaign under the slogan “Scotland said yes”. They argued that the 40% rule was undemocratic and that the Referendum results justified the establishment of the Assembly.
In protest, the SNP withdrew their support from the government. A motion of no confidence was then tabled by the Conservatives and supported by the SNP, the Liberals and Ulster Unionists. It passed by one vote on 28 March 1979, forcing the May 1979 general election, which was won by the Conservatives led by Margaret Thatcher. Prime Minister Callaghan described the decision of the SNP to bring down the Labour government as “turkeys voting for Christmas”. Wikipedia.
In other words no-one could do anything about this (losing the Referendum) at all.
I posted this earlier Breeks. Did you see it?
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/forced-brexit-changes-scotlands-constitutional-debate/
Maybe this would help?
‘Scotland analysis: devolution and the implications of Scottish independence.’
http://www.gov.uk/government/publications/scotland-analysis-devolution-and-the-implications-of-scottish-independence
……………………………………………………………….
Every now and then Labour try to suggest that the SNP stand shoulder to shoulder with the Tories.
It really is quite pathetic and further distances them from
reality and their former supporters.
SNP Made it crystal clear that they would Never work with the Tories, no matter the General Election result.
Labour have the same policies as their Tory cousins, they did their dirty work for them during the Scottish Referendum, standing shoulder to shoulder, and they are paired with fellow Remain Tories on Tour, such as Ed Balls and Gideon Osborne, Sidiq Khan and David Cameron.
Now there is a train of thought that Cameron and the main Blue Tory party actually want to Bexit.
They have performed very badly, they have re-used the most exaggerated scare stories to make them sound ridiculous,
and now the have passed the baton to their Mud Red Tory
side kicks.
If they are going out of the EU, big Clunker Brown and Nonplussed Corbin will be seen as the losers in the referendum.
Does anyone think that Labour might learn not to trust, not to work with, not stand shoulder to shoulder with, the Blue Tories?
Probably Not!
I cannot condone violence, but I think that there may be something positive within the England Vs Russia Football Thug competition?
For decades the English Fans have caused mayhem across the globe with violent and destructive behaviour.
They did not get banned for 5 years for bad language.
They seem to think they are superior to all other nations
and act as if the host nation is theirs to take over.
Back to their good old rape and pillage Empire days.
In this current Football Tournament, English Fans started out with songs and threats that they wanted to fight with the Germans, ISIS, and the IRA.
Now that the Russians have tried to test their bravado, we
can see that the fat drunken slobs on tour couldn’t fight sleep.
We see their Media outlets rush to cover their embarrassment as they go running for help from the Frog’s Police Force, that they were also ready to fight with.
These brutal acts may see these yobs less likely to travel, and less likely to go looking for fights, and please God, less arrogant.
Do Svee-Dah-Nyah English Thugs
I ask myself what’s an Andy D,
that causes so much laughter?
It wants to be ruled by the tories
and says it’ll be happy ever after.
An Andy D says it’s poor
and it’s also working class
and the SNP are baaad for sure
I say – Aye right! Kiss ma arse!
I ask myself why an Andy D
comes on this site and trolls?
Here’s some advice ah’ll gie ye
Awa hame an’ play wi yir dolls.
@ Xaracen says at 3:23 pm …. ”Can I second the request for this more comprehensive list? I found the first one pretty hard-hitting by itself, but it is always a good idea to have some backup material, too.”
Sandy / Xaracen …. Sorry I haven’t got round to doing this yet. I’m being waylaid right now / for the rest of the night so will post it tomorrow on this thread.
Tell me- how can Scotland 2016 turn the killing of 49 people by a maniac in a gay nightclub in Orlando into a long piece criticising the SNP led Scottish Government?
Ignore the fucking insensitivity- how do they actually do it?
Here is another question. Is there a single tragedy on planet Earth or event or in fact anything at all that Scotland 2016 cannot turn into an SNP BAAD story?
I’m hoping that England will vote Out by a small majority, and Scotland’s Remain In vote will keep us in. I’d love to see the Unionists reactions.
Once the European Empire has Turkey, Ukraine and other dangerous basket cases on board you can expect feminist and homosexual rights to vanish like smoke as more pressing issues like submitting to ISIS style maniacs and watching your neighbourhood being blasted apart by nail bombers (Brussels) or mad gunmen (Paris) becomes a regular event in an endles parade of misery. Say goodbye to any of the rights previous generations struggled for as they are given away like trinkets to the government in return for “security” and “safety” from the very threats and problems they brought on board.
It’s already stretched to economic breaking point. Collapse and war is unavoidable on this path. People will look back unkindly on this era when the history books are written and the future generations must rebuild from our folly.