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Wings Over Scotland


A sour taste

Posted on September 23, 2015 by

Alert readers may recall an incident last year in which the Scottish media got itself very worked up about some independence supporters threatening to boycott holiday company Barrhead Travel after its owner sent a barking-mad letter to staff about how the company would go out of business if Scotland voted Yes.

The Telegraph, Express, Times, Daily Mail and Scotsman were among those covering the story at length – with the latter going so far as an extraordinary comparison to the Nazi atrocity of Kristallnacht – and someone called Jim Murphy opined that it was “a new low” and “the worst type of negative politics”, despite the SNP having discouraged and disassociated itself from any boycott.

So we’re sure that you won’t be able to move later today and tomorrow for newspaper articles about something similar, but significantly worse, that happened this weekend.

rollo1

A group of some of the slower-witted Unionist trolls on social media took offence to a Facebook post by Alison Rollo, a sculptor who also owns (with her daughter and husband) a popular and well-reviewed wine bar/restaurant in Stockbridge in Edinburgh.

The comment itself was wholly innocuous, noting the widely-observed statistical fact that opposition to independence is heavily skewed towards older age groups and projecting that the arithmetic of birth and death rates suggested there could be a majority for a Yes vote in Scotland in as little as four years.

Showing the grasp of English comprehension that followers of Scottish politics will have come to expect, the Unionists immediately concluded that this was tantamount to a call for the murder of anyone of pensionable age, and decided to take action.

rollo2

Shortly afterwards, a series of reviews appeared on the restaurant’s TripAdvisor page.

rollo7

The “reviews” made various defamatory allegations about the restaurant’s food, service and hygiene. Carelessly, one “reviewer” complained about finding a hair in his soup – a tactical error as Rollo has never sold soup, a fact swiftly pointed out in a reply by the Rollo account on the site.

Numerous readers have alerted TripAdvisor to the malicious reviews, all posted on Sunday and Monday, but at the time of writing they’re still in place – we took the above screenshot just a few minutes ago, around 11am on Wednesday.

Having been discovered, most of the Unionist trolls are unsurprisingly unrepentant:

rollo3

Although a few of the more cowardly ones have deleted their tweets:

rollo4

(Readers may or may not be astounded to learn that almost every participant in the hate campaign shares a fondness for a particular recently-formed football club.)

A hasty defence has been mounted, claiming hypocrisy/whataboutery on the grounds of calls for boycotts of No-backing businesses by independence supporters:

rollo5

But there is of course a very big difference between choosing not to employ the services of a company because one dislikes the political affiliations/activities of its owners, and posting defamatory untruths about it in an attempt to persuade other customers to avoid it. Choosing to boycott something is perfectly legal – nobody can be compelled to use a particular company or service. Sabotaging someone’s business with lies is not.

So given that what’s happening to Rollo is an actual crime, while deciding to book your holidays with someone other than Barrhead Travel is not, we’re sure Scotland’s fair and balanced press will be all over this story any minute now. All the same, in the interests of health and safety, we don’t recommend that readers hold their breath.

.

EDIT 11.54am: within half an hour of this article’s publication, TripAdvisor finally pulled the malicious reviews, which had remained in place for three days.

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  1. 23 09 15 11:38

    A sour taste | Politics Scotland | Scoop.it

  2. 23 09 15 11:43

    A sour taste | Speymouth

221 to “A sour taste”

  1. Training Day says:

    And nice to be reminded of how the foaming zoomery in the threatening letter from the owner of Barrhead Travel to his own employees was presented merely as ‘advice’ to vote No by Bill Jamieson of the Scotsman.

    Bill Jamieson is of course a favourite interviewee of BBC Scotland.

  2. No surprises there.

  3. David McCann says:

    On the other hand, if I happen to be in the area, I will make a point of stopping to have something to eat, whether or not Im hungry!

  4. Chris Cairns says:

    Me and Mrs Cairnstoon have eaten in Rollo a couple of times and it’s bloody brilliant.
    Now we’ve got every reason to go back more often – yay!

  5. tartanarse says:

    I don’t believe that these folk have ever used cutlery, let alone visited the establishment.

    It is also my suggestion that if they did indeed find a hair with their meal it is more than likely to have come from one of their lonely teeth.

    Unionists who know of the establishment weren’t likely to go and the reviews look like exactly what they are.

    The ramblings of backwardy fuckwits who’s lives are being transformed for the better under their very noses.

    Will they be grateful one day? No they won’t. Bitter to the end, only in the future we’ll be able to laugh at them doing it instead of being ashamed.

  6. Doug Daniel says:

    Well, with any luck, Rollo will have an influx of new customers after this, although it doesn’t look like they need the help as they seem to be pretty highly regarded.

    As you say, boycotting a business because you disagree with their political stance (and stating that as your reason for doing so) is different from spreading malicious lies about a business to put other people off. I would also argue another difference is that the business owners who spoke out against independence were trying to use and abuse the status of their business to give more gravitas to their opinions, whereas Alison here simply made a comment on her personal Facebook page. She’s speaking as Alison Rollo, not “owner of popular Edinburgh bistro, Rollo”.

    But I wouldn’t expect the type of folk who posted those negative reviews to understand such subtleties.

  7. handclapping says:

    @Chris Cairns
    And with the sales of the book you’ll have the money too 😀

  8. Ian Henderson says:

    You are right about the difference between defamation and boycott.
    I am sure many people find CB a fine bank; but following this warning http://www.newsrt.co.uk/news/clydesdale-bank-warns-against-scottish-independence-2570279.html, we promptly moved our business accounts to a bank which did not voice an opinion.
    We have not regretted the move “forced” upon us.

  9. Iain More says:

    I go out of my way to support Yes individuals, I go out of my way to boycott Nawbags establishments.

    On my last trip to Edinburgh I was actually in the establishment that so offends the anti Scottish nawbag bigots. I didn’t know the said establishment had a Yes friendly owner. I will be sure to visit it again the next time I am in that Nawbags city.

    It is small world!

  10. DerekM says:

    outrageous behavior nothing but petty spite she should take legal advice over this imo.

  11. Bob Mack says:

    These people had better be very careful.
    They may own businesses themselves ,or be vulnerable to dishonest opinion regarding their own personal circumstances.
    Very dangerous ground to tread.

  12. David McCann says:

    Interestingly enough, the review in the Scotsman, was written by a Richard Bath.

    If that is the same Richard Bath, editor of Scottish Field, who wrote an article during the referendum campaign, complaining about cybernats, will he now condemn the unionist trolls?

    I await with interest.

  13. mealer says:

    I’ll certainly be dining at Rollos next time I’m in our nations capital.

  14. crisiscult says:

    similar tactics were used against vespar/yesbar in Glasgow a while back. Probably just has the opposite effect, which will then lead to the self same NAWers (now SNPout?) claiming that the business owners are cynically claiming to be YESers to get Yes supporters’ business. SNPouters’ minds are a terrible thing to taste.

  15. Macart says:

    Simply grim, but then no huge surprises either and no I wouldn’t hold my breath either.

  16. peekay says:

    tartanarse says:
    I don’t believe that these folk have ever used cutlery

    I find that highly offensive, have you any idea just how difficult it must be for the poor mites to use cutlery without opposable thumbs?

  17. Cuilean says:

    I’m still boycotting ASDA, Tesco, John Lewis etc. one year on.

    e.g. I have to buy a fridge this week in Glasgow City Centre. It’ll be from a neutral outlet, not John Lewis.

    In the last year ASDA etc have lost thousands from my own personal boycott.

    I hope others are holding firm. It does affect them.

  18. t says:

    Yet another stab at Rangers FC, Stu, disgusting.

    I am a long-time Wings reader and one-time financial supporter, and I’m getting fed up with your mixing football and politics. Just don’t do it.

  19. Colin Church says:

    They are truly vile Britnats and wish the café a bright and strong future.

    But the demographics argument is of course hugely divisive rather than purely innocuous.

    Do we want that age group to form a herd and adopt a war time footing? The lessons of Morningside Murray’s tactics and the outcome are pretty clear if we do.

    The elderly that shuffle off will be replaced by more elderly, possibly just as risk averse then, not necessarily more Yessers. Berating the elderly or wishing them to go is not an answer. Britnats will feed off this.

    The Britnats, Scotland branch office, on the other hand am happy to see shuffle off and GTF.

  20. iain taylor says:

    I feel the urge to have a meal in Stockbridge.

    I can spend the £s I’m saving by no longer buying at a particular sandwich bar owned by a rabid Bitter Together nutter.

    Excellent place, and I kept going there right thru’ the campaign, but when Osborne whipped £300 p/month off my pension right after the referendum, I decided economies had to be made.

  21. Giving Goose says:

    Sadly, as we are all aware, certain sections of the No supporting, anti-Scottish, Westminster Dependent, Lacking-the-Balls-or-Backbone-to-stand-on-their-own-two-feet, Tuck-me-in-Mum-with-my-Union-Jack-Teddy-bear, Happy-that-my-country-is-run-by-a-pig-f***er, Possessing-No-Self-Respect, Single-Brain-Cell-in-my-Bum, Brigade; are only happy when they are;

    A) Hating somebody
    B) Hating somebody who doesn’t share the same view point as they do
    C) Hating more people

    If anything, the actual existence of this particular, unpleasant Cult (and it is a Cult!) within Scotland’s society makes me even more determined to gain Independence so that we can put in place the mechanisms that will rid our Nation of this stain on it.

    And Gentleman and Ladies of the Unionist kind who follow this particular Cult (you know who you are), you should realise that the Independence movement is, in part, fuelled and given the strength to carry on by your excesses.
    Silly you, but then I don’t expect you to understand because, like all members of Cults, you are;

    A) Victims
    B) Brainwashed
    C) Actually rather silly
    D) Lacking any credibility
    E) A Laughing stock
    F) In serious need of some psychological help
    G) A Dependency Culture
    H) Deeply unpleasant

    Keep it coming because you give us the strength to make it all better in a better future.

  22. Josephine Mackenzie says:

    Interesting no-one mentions TripAdvisor’s role in all this. For some reason known only to themselves they fight tooth & nail not to remove malicious reviews, even when presented with overwhelming evidence of deliberate fraud. They swear they are honest & transparent, but like every big company, that’s really not true at all, as anyone in the hospitality business who has ever had an issue with them will tell you.

  23. Colin Church says:

    …and what Giving Goose said.

  24. Martin says:

    Ah, whataboutery, the natural reserve of these type of “peepul.”

    I am 90% sure this will never see the light of day on any of the MSM. Perhaps a bit in local print media, but certainly nothing beyond that

  25. tartanarse says:

    Peekay at 12.04

    Yeah sorry. Perhaps they simply order the invisible soup and then proceed to just smash their face into it.

    I couldn’t help but notice that one “reviewer” states that the place was so busy being shit that it took ages to even get in.

    That’s very odd.

    So glad these folk are the minority. Silent majority my arse. They’re not a majority and they’re noisy bastards.

  26. HandandShrimp says:

    I confess I never look at Trip Adviser. I have heard before that the content is pretty corrupted with rivals and the like spiking the reviews and making the whole thing pointless.

    Pathetic attempt by the Naw Bags though. 4 reviews? FFS! They should be thankful we are above that kind of thing 🙂

  27. K.A.Mylchreest says:

    Why should any of us give a flying sausage if the well-heeled burgers of Edinburgh were, in the very worst case scenario, to have one less fancy joint at which to conspicuously consume overpriced food?

    Now if the local chippy were at risk it might be a different kettle of fish, something that could inconvenience ordinary folk on ever more limited means. This is happening, remember, in a Scotland where more and more people are being sent begging to food-banks.

    I suppose an indy Scotland would soon develop its own elite to sneer down on the rest of us, but that doesn’t mean we have to condone those who pander to their excesses.

    Sometimes I wonder what’s the point?

  28. Another Union Dividend says:

    Colin Church says @12.09: Re Murray and Edinburgh South Labour tactics.

    At start of May’s election campaign the Edinburgh South Yes Cafe was subjected to a string of vexatious complaints which entitled frequent visits from Environmental Health and other Council officials.

    Then before the three year old tweets came to light several complaints were made to Neil Hay’s employers over fact that he mentioned where he worked.

    Never underestimate the establishment’s / Labour’s tactics to cling onto power.

    btw Please support Edinburgh South Yes Cafe fund raising appeal http://yescafeedinburghsouth.weebly.com/donate.html

  29. Macart says:

    I don’t get it. Other than continually feeding a perpetual cycle of hatred, just what do folk who do these things think they achieve?

    Never understood it and hopefully never will.

  30. R-type Grunt says:

    I’ve never heard of Rollo before so I really want to thank the Britnat scum who brought this fine establishment to my attention. I look forward to dining there on my very next visit to Edinburgh.

  31. Haggis Hunter says:

    I transferred my life long pension out of the Standard Life because they wrote to me twice (identical letters from 2 different people)saying they will remain in Scotland no matter the outcome of the referendum, but at the same time the BBC was telling us the opposite.

    However, I never once bad mouthed them or started a hatred campaign, this is what the unionists fail to understand.
    This is for the Police to look at.

  32. G H Graham says:

    Mr. & Mrs. Rollo are personal friends of mine. We also live just a couple of miles apart in Perthshire. So I may be qualified to provide some sort of reference, even if it is clearly biased.

    A nicer couple would be hard to find. And one isn’t able to own & operate a successful restaurant in the competitive Edinburgh market if one’s arithmetic is on par with for example, Kaye Adams (forty x zero = er … something).

    Meanwhile, I have been boycotting a number of businesses & brands for several years, including the BBC. Refusing to finance state sponsored propaganda isn’t yet a crime in Britain but making false allegations about a person or business in order to cause damage is.

    Regrettably, like the Wee Blue Book, I expect the media in Scotland to turn a blind eye.

  33. John Kerr says:

    @Cuilean 12.05pm

    I have to agree. I posted similarly to you at 7.30am on the “A Cautionary Tale” article.

    We all need to think twice about spending our hard-earned in places like ASDA, Iceland, John Lewis, Barrhead Travel etc. If these companies think they can interfere with Scottish politics and face no consequences, then they will continue to do so. Their scaremongering tactics worked against us and I’ll be damned if I give them another penny. Exactly the same reason I don’t buy newspapers anymore – except the National.

    Meantime, let’s continue to support YES friendly businesses like Rollo and Yesbar and the many others.

    P.S. To Tartanarse above – Please put a warning to readers drinking hot coffee to put it down before reading your wise words. The “hair from one of their lonely teeth” had me spraying said coffee over my keyboard.

  34. dakk says:

    More good work Stuart,its good to know we have a ‘masked crusader’ on our side.

    My own small business has been left reduced by 25% due to unionist boycott.

    Considering a good 80 or 90% of customers are/were unionists,that’s not too bad a drop off.

    Roll on Indyref2 and sequestration 🙂

  35. HandandShrimp says:

    Looking at the pictures and menu it looks worth a visit. Lovely area Stockbridge for a potter around too.

  36. Stoker says:

    Thank you Rev, good to see you back on track doing what you do best!
    _____

    Iain More wrote:
    “I go out of my way to support Yes individuals, I go out of my way to boycott Nawbag establishments.”

    Ditto!
    _____

    DerekM wrote:
    “she should take legal advice over this imo.”

    I was thinking exactly the same thoughts!
    _____

    Cuilean says:
    23 September, 2015 at 12:05 pm
    “I’m still boycotting ASDA, Tesco, John Lewis etc. one year on.”
    “I hope others are holding firm. It does affect them.”

    I know i am, relentlessly!

    Asda
    Tesco
    Co-op
    Sainsburys
    Morrisons
    BBC
    All newspapers
    We also ditched BT as our phone & internet provider and are now with Plusnet. Much cheaper and better service! Happy as!

    I now get most of my shopping from Lidls who do a decent line in alternatives and pre referendum i thought they had an excellent neutral slogan which proclaimed something along the lines of:
    “We’re with you all the way Scotland”.

    And i get most of my viewing and listening entertainment from Radio and Netflix. We’ve never looked back.

    Oh, and of course, we are also spoilt for choice when it comes to pro-indy sites etc.

  37. Hetty4yes says:

    Hey Ian More@11.51am, I live in Nawbags city and my wee circle of friends all voted yes so there. 🙂

    Must pop into Rollos very soon, its very close by.

    We were at an SNP meeting last week and one speaker mentioned that a yes campaigner up North had been blacklisted by all the no lot around and is now out of business trying to scrape a living.
    I cannot remember what the business was, but it just sounded so awful for him. With many businesses relying on the internet and social media for accreditation, it is a huge concern.

    One thing to be on opposing sides regards whether we should be Independent, quite another to destroy someones livelihood and it was from the unionists, scary stuff. How many pro Indy folk have destroyed livelihoods, I bet it is nil.

  38. Tam Jardine says:

    K.A.Mylchreest

    So- of with you if the waiting staff & kitchen staff get their books?

  39. galamcennalath says:

    The whole thing makes me feel very uncomfortable.

    Maliciously trying to damage someone’s small business with false accusations should be a crime – perhaps it is. That behaviour is truly awful.

    Even the boycott stuff, does make me feel uneasy. I’m guilty here too. I have avoided certain brands for over a year now. If I walked into a shop/cafe/whatever and saw pro-Union leaflets, I’d never go back.

    We all have to accept though, the opposite is true. Anyone pushing a pro-Indy line from their business is equally at risk of boycott.

    Should business people just keep quiet? Through necessity maybe. Is that not suppression of free speech though?

    How long should this go on? This factionalisation of our society. Until we achieve independence? That could be a decade, or more. And then, will we all hug and make up?

    Who’s to blame? I blame they way IndyRef and the GE was fought by the Unionists. That’s happened, we can’t undo it. They are going to keep playing dirty and negatively in the future, for sure.

    Solution? IndyRef2 sooner than later and build a new Scotland. Put the past behind us.

  40. Dr Jim says:

    Aldis stock a wide range of Scottish produced local food
    I know most of us know this but for those who don’t
    get in there Save Money and support Scottish Food Production

    And if it hurts Asda or Morrisons or Sainsburys or Da Da Da Da…. Oh dear how sad never mind

  41. Charles Edward says:

    I think the distress and confusion was caused by the menu.
    Don’t you know all the best restaurants serve pig’s head?

    (..you don’t eat it silly! – what school did you go to!)

    Brought to you by deep fried Batter together, for that tasteless, idiotic flavour.

  42. frogesque says:

    Would this be supporters of a newly formed football club that got thrashed 3 – 1 by St. Johnston last night?

  43. Cheers for drawing this place to my attention as I’d never heard of it. I’ll be working a few hundred yards away with my biz partner tomorrow so we’ll be sure to nip in for a business lunch. No such thing as bad publicity!

    B&Q can still go screw themselves though – and I used to spend a LOT of money there.

  44. heedtracker says:

    Horrible bunch but what amazing PR. I’d never have given it a second thought but the place looks great. So thanks for that proudScotbuts or angry English unionists on tour.

    There are a lot of sneaky shits around so its good to stay cool out there, as in BBC propaganda like this

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34291558

    becomes

    Adam Tomkins ?@ProfTomkins Sep 19
    There are hundreds more people on the Recovery Scotland march in Glasgow today than there are at Zoomerfest George Square

  45. Anne Lawrie says:

    Trip Advisor have removed the offending reviews. Unfortunately, they have also removed good reviews, so next time you visit, be sure to leave a review on Trip Advisor. I’m sure that with the extra business that has been generated, there will be plenty of new customers to express an honest opinion. Looks like the malicious few have had less than their desired outcome!

  46. James Christie says:

    Bill Munro isn’t the owner of Barrhead Travel. He is a part time non-executive director, and therefore responsible for governance, strategy and scrutinising management. In such a role he should be separate from and independent of the day to day management. Barrhead dissasociated themselves from the letter which they said was Munro’s personal opinion and not company policy. That raises the question of how Munro gained access to the contact details of staff. It was a clear abuse of his position.

  47. HandandShrimp says:

    galamcennalath

    I would tend to agree. There are companies and brands I no longer feel war towards and of course there are alternatives.

    I would however, draw a line at lying and submitting reviews that are malicious lies. That is fundamentally dishonest. The people that attacked this diner never ate there and clearly had few qualms about being liars. No one is disputing their right to not eat there on principle but there is a line in this and they crossed it with both feet.

  48. shug says:

    Takes me back to the need for information for this type of unionist and how Westminster has betrayed them

  49. Pin says:

    This is the kind of things the Lib Dems do

  50. Alibi says:

    My wife said to me to go into Barrhead Travel to get prices for a holiday. I told her that under no circumstances would I ever deal with them. We have an excellent local travel agent, independently owned. The owner was not a Yes supporter (at least I don’t think so) but neither did he try to blackmail his staff into voting no, and as they give an excellent service that is where I will continue to go.

  51. HandandShrimp says:

    warm rather than war

    Doh

  52. Lenny Hartley says:

    Cuilean @ 1.04

    Sorry to disappoint you but Plusnet is owned by B.T. 🙁

  53. Effigy says:

    I was introduced to a former Barrhead Travel worker
    Who informed me why they had “won” an award
    As one of Scotland’s best employers- you fill in
    Their survey form with their supervisor!

    It is quite clear that if you make any negative
    Comments, you would not need to come into
    Work tomorrow.

    If it is Rangers fans who are behind the malicious
    Comments on Tripadvidor, they should focus
    More on their players. They were slaughtered by
    St Johnstone last night, and the Saints can’t
    Compete against Celtic.

    I was once a Gerd supporter, but biased bigoted bullies
    On the terraces and corrupt management has
    Made me stay well clear of them.

  54. Stoker says:

    @ Lenny Hartley (1.49pm).
    I think you’ll find that comment (@1.04) was made by me Lenny.
    Can you show me the evidence? Genuinely curious and puzzled!

  55. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cuilean says: 23 September, 2015 at 12:05 pm:

    ” … I’m still boycotting ASDA, Tesco, John Lewis etc. one year on.

    Yes, Cuilean, me too. Being somewhat disabled I bought almost everything from ASDA. Like many other disabled people my road fuel costs were high as not only did I need a larger vehicle to be able to haul around my disability scooter but I need to keep close to both lie down facilities and toilet requirements.

    Weekly road fuel costs alone average over £100 per week. I also stock up on frozen stuff so that when I’m unable to get out I have supplies available. I even had prescriptions, of which there are many, filled at ASDA.

    Thing is there were alternatives but they needed a bit more effort on my part but the overall effect turned out well as I found the cost of my average weekly spend was quite a good deal lower these days.

    Thing is I believe this is the first time I have mentioned the fact, except perhaps in the passing.

  56. Kev says:

    Was planning to head through to Edinburgh this weekend for an anti-fracking demo and was looking for somewhere to get a bite to eat – cheers nawbag numpties for making my decision for me!

  57. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Stoker.

    Plusnet IS owned by BT but is allowed to run more or less independently.

    I’ve been with them over three years. Good service.

  58. Capella says:

    I confess. I do now buy Mackie’s ice cream, it’s just too good. Mackie Sr died last year and I imagine that perhaps the younger members of the family have different views. But I have no objection to people expressing their political views. I do object to attempts to frighten people into voting NO.

    Manipulating the democratic process is a serious crime in my view. So BBC and John Lewis are still off limits for me.

  59. Capella says:

    Forgot to add, most MSM are also barred for me except the National and Sunday Herald, but even that is on a wait and see basis pending the outcome of Richard Walker’s resignation.

    If there is one organisation which I would like to see boycotted it is that replacement Ibrox team whose members appear to be anti-democratic. Voting with feet would soon persuade them to change their attitude to the rest of humanity.

  60. chossy says:

    Just booked a wee table for Monday lunch with my good lady. Looking forward to it.

  61. Robert Peffers says:

    @Colin Church says: 23 September, 2015 at 12:09 pm:

    “The elderly that shuffle off will be replaced by more elderly, possibly just as risk averse then, not necessarily more Yessers.”

    Yes, Colin, you have the right of it. I posted just such a comment just a few days ago. It has always been thus. As we age we mostly tend to become more, (small c), conservative.

    It shows up in lots of other ways besides political loyalty. It is a very natural aging process and anyone who fondly imagines that their taste, preferences and behaviours are going to remain as they did as a school boy/girl need only consider that the rebel teen gets married, has a family and finds their offspring are the rebels and they the ones rebelled against by the next generation.

    The Mother, driven daft by her youngsters who prefer Chicken Dippers and chips and who refuse to eat their greens, was the vegetable hating child of her own mother a few short years before.

    It’s what we call life.

  62. Stoker says:

    @ Bdtt (2.08pm).

    Aye, cheers Brian, just done some checking and can confirm what both you and Lenny have stated.

    Looks like i’m stuck with them until i find something equally good.

    Now, where to start looking?

  63. heedtracker says:

    Gaint like ASDA, or Walmart really put the UKOK boot in but are these guys going to make even bigger fools of themselves mumbling Scotland’s national anthem? Just sing God save the queen rugger buggers.

    No pressure on Scotland – Hastings

    Gavin Hastings
    Former Scotland full-back on BBC Radio 5 live
    Posted at 14:26
    “I don’t believe the pressure is on Scotland. I don’t believe from a Scottish perspective anything has changed.

  64. Robert Peffers says:

    @K.A.Mylchreest says: 23 September, 2015 at 12:33 pm:

    >i>” … Sometimes I wonder what’s the point?”

    Oh! I dunnow! K.A.Mylchreest, a little something or other tells me you know exactly what the point is.

  65. K.A.Mylchreest says:

    @Robert Peffers

    I support Scottish indy, and have for several decades, because I believe there is a chance of creating a better, fairer and more equal society than as part of the UK.

    That is sufficient reason, but it’s only a chance, not a certainty. And so when I see indy supporters lining up to back an enterprise run by the rich for the rich, to quite literally allow conspicuous consumption, then should I not wonder if I might have backed the wrong horse?

  66. anie says:

    Great for business….reverse psychology works. Every Indy supporter will be going to the Restaurant now. The rest can go to …….McDonalds to eat sludge.

  67. Stoker says:

    Capella wrote:
    “I confess. I do now buy Mackie’s ice cream, it’s just too good.”

    I hear you on that one Capella.
    I don’t know what stance the makers of Stornoway Black Pudding took at the referendum but if i ever found it to be ‘No’ then that is the one exception i would be prepared to make. Nothing could prise me from my SBP.
    🙂

  68. Dan Huil says:

    @heedtracker 2.37pm

    “Gavin Hastings:
    Former Scotland full-back”

    Living Scottish Cringe.

  69. heedtracker says:

    That is sufficient reason, but it’s only a chance, not a certainty. And so when I see indy supporters lining up to back an enterprise run by the rich for the rich, to quite literally allow conspicuous consumption, then should I not wonder if I might have backed the wrong horse?

    But you won you phoney.

  70. Alan Ferrier says:

    @K.A.Mylchreest

    Hang on a minute. It’s a wee local restaurant, owned and run by a local family that serves well-prepared, good value food, often made with locally sourced ingredients, hardly “an enterprise run by the rich for the rich, to quite literally allow conspicuous consumption.”

    Quite frankly, your vision of a “better, fairer and more equal society” DEPENDS on businesses like this, rather than the multinational corporate purveyors of overpriced mass-produced crap. Or would you rather we all ate gravel?

  71. bjsalba says:

    Doesn’t do much for my confidence in Trip adviser. You would think they would have been much speedier to correct the site.

    Do they ever take action against people who do this sort of thing?

  72. john king says:

    I think when the opportunity presents wingers should book a table (or tables)and bring them business, I would probably imagine they wouldn’t want an overt show of independence support so we could go incognito, what does everyone else think?

  73. heedtracker says:

    Dan Huil says:
    23 September, 2015 at 2:59 pm
    @heedtracker 2.37pm

    “Gavin Hastings:
    Former Scotland full-back”

    Living Scottish Cringe.

    Is there anything more ukok mental than a raging NO singing

    O Flower of Scotland,
    When will we see
    Your like again,
    That fought and died for,
    Your wee bit Hill and Glen,
    And stood against him,
    Proud Edward’s Army,
    And sent him homeward,
    To think again.

    Just another bunch of ukok buffoons.

  74. John Jones says:

    I wish people would stop bashing us “silver surfers” I have been an independance supporter since before most of you were born. My wife & I were fervent yes campaigners in the run up to the vote & will continue until we move into the final “single-end”
    My own one will be cardboard with a huge yes painted on it.
    By the way neither of us have any colour of rinse, which in my case would be difficult any way!

  75. Hobbit says:

    @Robert Peffers, Colin Church

    Concur, we do tend to get more conservative as we age. That is why the Yes campaign may be disappointed if they think demographics will make a significant difference to their support.

    The French have a nice proverb for it: “Anyone who at the age of 18 is not a socialist, shows he has no heart; but to still be a socialist at 40 (or some other age) shows he has no brain!”

    As to the comment about Clydesdale Bank’s views, the actual quote at the time was,

    [Chief Executive Andrew Thorburn said]: “A vote in favour of independence may give rise to significant additional costs and risks for Clydesdale Bank. We continue to closely monitor the situation and have appropriate contingency planning in place.”

    That’s almost standard bankerese, and a banker would not be doing his (her) job if he did not flag issues like that.

  76. john king says:

    K.A.Mylechreest says
    “Why should any of us give a flying sausage if the well-heeled burgers of Edinburgh were, in the very worst case scenario, to have one less fancy joint at which to conspicuously consume overpriced food? ”

    Sniff… sniff…sniff
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EE4alauiS4

  77. gordoz says:

    @John Jones –

    Everyone is well aware of the debt we owe and also the input of our YES side Elder Campaigners such as yourself.

    The disbelief and dismay is with those easily scared by the outpourings of a certain Gordon Brown

    Look at the vote demographic for the over 65’s

    1 in 4 was a no voting Proudscotbut, depriving their own children, grandchildren and youth of tomorrow the future they clearly desired (and voted for) via Independence.

  78. gordoz says:

    @John Jones – Apologies Correction

    Everyone is well aware of the debt we owe and also the input of our YES side Elder Campaigners such as yourself.

    The disbelief and dismay is with those easily scared by the outpourings of a certain Gordon Brown

    Look at the vote demographic for the over 65’s

    Nearly 75% were no voting Proudscots, depriving their own children, grandchildren and youth of tomorrow the future they clearly desired (and voted for) via Independence.

  79. dakk says:

    K.A.Mylchreest. 12.10

    You wouldn’t happen to be related to Will Podmore by any chance.

    You fake socialists all seem to have the same bogus concerns.

  80. galamcennalath says:

    John Jones says:

    I wish people would stop bashing us “silver surfers”

    Two things.

    It is undeniable that a majority of people over 55, or whatever it is, voted No. The older the group, the higher the No percentage. However, I do agree that slating off a whole group just because a majority are No is a bad approach. The same is often said of English born people. Again a minority were Yes.

    However, you did refer to a sub-group of older people. I suspect the vast majority of those older people who voted No are in fact NOT silver surfers. IMO they will not be internet users. They will form their world view through TV, radio and the papers.

    The ‘problem’ is probably not that old people are, well old. The ‘problem’ is that they are the one group where many aren’t exposed to the grassroots movement via the internet. The solution is to give them access to the alternative view of reality face to face and in written form.

    Perhaps a Wee Blue Book Second Edition to every older person in Scotland might have a dramatic effect!

  81. jacksg says:

    John King says@3.17pm

    I think when the opportunity presents wingers should book a table (or tables)and bring them business.

    I think that is a splendid idea John!:-)

    I have a birthday coming up and just happen to live in Edinburgh (or thearabouts) will defo pay them a wee visit.

    Are sunglasses and a hat required.:-?

  82. gerry parker says:

    @
    Robert Peffers at 2:02.

    Consider getting your prescriptions sent to a chemist that does home deliveries.

    Depends on your area though but most ones round here provide the service.

    take care.

  83. Socrates MacSporran says:

    A few commenters here having a go at Gavin Hastings.

    Please be aware, if anyone in Scottish rugby, in an after-dinner speech, needs to use the name of a particularly thick and stupid Scottish rugby player – the name they use is Gavin Hastings.

    I heard a Scottish international icon, a contemporary of the Hastings brothers, speaking at a recent pre-match lunch. Said player is involved in coaching and he said: “Gavin Hastings’ son is a real chip off the old block – brilliant rugby player, thick as two short planks”.

  84. Robert Kerr says:

    The age demographic extinction scenario is partially correct.

    The elderly at least some of them hanker back to living in the days of the “New Elizabethan Era” with the legacy of Empire etc. They cannot be replaced.

    I can remember being lined up to wave to Betty as she drove past in Wishaw after her anointment session.

    Again some of us believe in a Free Democratic Scotland.

  85. NN says:

    Trip Advisor – and presumably most places like it – have long been riddled with such problems. False positives and false negative reviews. There’s not a lot that can be done to avoid it on such a format and financially there’s no incentive for TA to avoid it anyway as all that matters for them is that they keep getting the ad revenue to pay for everything from site visitors, I guess.

    I’ve seen bad reviews for restaraunts on it where the person complaining is talking about eating there on dates when the restaraunt wasn’t even open or the business itself was closed months beforehand.

    Sadly the false reviews don’t come only from accounts with just one posted review, it also comes from those with many posted reviews. I expect there are companies and individuals paid money to go around and bad mouth or support certain businesses on various review sites. I know you can buy likes and views for your youtube videos (pretty cheap, actually) and buy dislikes for your competition from bussiness advertising online too.

  86. Big Jock says:

    Big Gav- How did he pass his surveying degree! The mind boggles!

  87. NN says:

    The long and short of it is that you can’t trust an anonymous review site any more than you can trust advertising in general once the advertising scumbags move in. Trust people you know or can get to know somehow instead. The rest is too easily compromised.

  88. Lollysmum says:

    Nicola Sturgeon this morning talking about Scotland & the Human Rights Act

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uvJphP8pKw&feature=em-share_video_user

  89. foggie says:

    Stoker @ 1.04pm

    “We also ditched BT as our phone & internet provider and are now with Plusnet. Much cheaper and better service! Happy as!”

    You do know BT owns Plusnet?

  90. Robert Peffers says:

    @K.A.Mylchreest says: 23 September, 2015 at 2:53 pm:

    ” … And so when I see indy supporters lining up to back an enterprise run by the rich for the rich, to quite literally allow conspicuous consumption, then should I not wonder if I might have backed the wrong horse?”

    First of all my comment was quite neutral saying no more than I suspected you knew exactly what you were up to. Your reaction to it certainly points to my suspicions being correct.

    Perhaps your reaction is because there is scant or no evidence that the enterprise is factually, “An enterprise run by the rich for the rich”, nor that it, “allows conspicuous consumption”.

    It is apparently a fairly small wine bar. Therefore it’s prime function is to sell and serve wine. (I’m quite sure the, “Rid Biddy”, imbibing people I observed when, (many, many long years ago, when I lodged in that Edinburgh area), would claim wine drinking was the reserve of the excessively rich.

    Like most Wine Bars it serves food and attempts to provide a convivial place for friends to meet and enjoy each others company. As such it is also clear that the clients are not forced to enter and spend their hard earned, (or otherwise), cash.

    This present post from you reads like a 1970s, rant by Citizen, “Wolfie” Smith, the comedic young Marxist, “Urban Guerrilla”, in Tooting, South London, who was attempting to emulate his hero, “Che Guevara”.

    The pseudonym, “Wolfie “, was a reference to the Irish revolutionary Wolfe Tone who also used the pseudonym, “Citizen Smith”, to evade capture by the British.

    “Wolfie”, was a self-proclaimed leader of, “The revolutionary Tooting Popular Front”, (TPF). A tiny group of his friends. The aims of which group were, “Power to the People”, and, “Freedom for Tooting”.

    In reality is that, “Wolfie”, is an unemployed slacker and petty criminal whose plans always fall through due to apathy, ineptitude and inexperience.

    Not exactly the form of political aims held by the average Scottish Independence supporter who tend to be much more slightly left of centre and very, very democratic in outlook.

  91. Big Jock says:

    Scotland 45 Japan 10…I wouldn’t have predicted that one.

  92. CameronB Brodie says:

    heedtracker and Dan Hull
    I think it only polite that those of us who share a modern outlook, do not openly mock the inherent contradictions of Scottish Unionists. They are historical victims of a cargo cult and so deserve our empathy and sympathy. 😉

    http://cultinformation.org.uk/article_caring-for-cult-victims.html

  93. Weemee says:

    I wish people would stop blaming the elderly for the “no” vote. I am an older person, and I voted yes. It was my younger neighbours who voted no.

  94. gordoz says:

    O/T _ Robin McAlpine on Hope over Fear & Tommy Sheridan

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/04/28/hope-over-fear/

    Pretty much sums it up for me.

    Surely the cause is way more important than noisy carping distractions. Nothing nice to say > say nothing.

  95. Stoker says:

    “A sour taste” – Soor plooms!
    🙂

  96. Iain More says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    I find it impossible to work up any sympathy or empathy for Thatcher Cultists Cameron. I find it impossible to view such vicious canutes as victims of anything.

  97. BornOptimist says:

    Just been given another reason for visiting Stockbridge when I visit Edinburgh. Hector’s pub is great – in fact, much improved since they changed the beers on sale – and the charity bookshops ditto. Rollo’s now on my to do list if I can get a booking.

  98. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Yet another stab at Rangers FC, Stu, disgusting.
    I am a long-time Wings reader and one-time financial supporter, and I’m getting fed up with your mixing football and politics. Just don’t do it.”

    Tell you what – you get the Union Bears to stop and so will I.

  99. manandboy says:

    In small things can be seen the big things.

    Unionists living in Scotland will gain very little from voting No, in fact it may cost many of them dearly. They are voting to stay on a sinking ship, which begs the question ‘why do they do it’, and why does so much of their passion come from hatred. The conduct of those spreading lies on trip advisor about Rollo is a fragment of the bigger picture.

    The principal economic beneficiaries of the Union are the 1%, most of whom live in the SE of England. But as big a question, not often aired, is who will gain, or lose, politically.

    The biggest political losers when Scotland goes independent will be England – in its relationship with the EU and the US. But also and very significantly, Northern Ireland stands to lose hugely. A bankrupt rUK will be unwilling, or just unable, to continue to keep NI on life-support. From there, it is hard to see NI surviving as an independent State. It is this element from outwith Scotland, which might well be a major influence on the Indy debate.

    The community of Scottish Unionists, whose gaze turns toward Belfast, and not to London, must see Independence for Scotland as an almost apocalyptic threat. With the end of 308 years of the Union, there may well be the prospect of the end of Northern Ireland’s special kind of Unionism. Loss of habitat is usually the first step to extinction and loss of power tends toward the same result.

    It is not impossible that it is this fear which drives their anger and their hatred for the Yes movement.

    Independence in Scotland will bring an end to the Scottish Unionist Establishment. Any new Establishment will have to be 100% pro Scotland. As for the diehard right wing Unionists, they will probably do what they have to do – within the law of course.
    And Prof Tompkins will no doubt migrate to Westminster with Ruthie as his researcher.

    In small things can be seen the big things.

  100. Don’t know the place but they should just put a big YES flag outside. I’m sure that will offset the tiny number of people who will be put off by dodgy reviews on a website.

  101. Democracy Reborn says:

    @Socrates MacSporran

    Did Hastings Snr (ProudScotBut) and Jnr pay hefty private school fees for the privilege of being thick?

    Is a double refund in order?

  102. Robert Peffers says:

    @gordoz says: 23 September, 2015 at 3:35 pm:

    “The disbelief and dismay is with those easily scared by the outpourings of a certain Gordon Brown.”

    Quite obviously you either have not read what you are commenting about or you fail to understand what is being said.

    “Look at the vote demographic for the over 65’s”

    Did you perhaps mean YOUR own perceived meaning of the demographic, gordoz?

    “1 in 4 was a no voting Proudscotbut, depriving their own children, grandchildren and youth of tomorrow the future they clearly desired (and voted for) via Independence”

    Again, I must assume you mean your own perception of who they were, what they were and what their motives were.

    The simple and proven facts are that as people age they have been proven to become more, (small c), conservative.

    The definition of, “conservative” is – traditional; conventional, cautious; moderate.

    The Rev Stu wrote an article a few days ago that illustrated the point very well. Alastair Darling was pictured as a young man marching in Edinburgh while holding one upright of an extreme far left wing banner.

    A far cry from the extreme right wing raving Tory who led the anti-independence Better Together.

    If you seriously hope that in, say, 10 years time there will not be an almost identical percentage of those who now are wavering YES voters who have also become wavering NO voters then, to coin an old Scottish expression, “Ye need yer bliddy gyte heid lookit”.

    The truth is that as the present wavering NOs die out they will be replaced by a very similar proportion of wavering NOs.

    The solution is NOT to bitterly condemn those people but to properly inform and educate the present batch to the many truths they had doubts about for to bitterly condemn them will see a similar action as we have just seen revealed in wingers posting that they will make a point of using Rollo’s Wine Bar in Stockbridge when in Edinburgh.

    These people show a very human psychological reaction to the unfair and distasteful actions of the Bitter Together numpties attacks on Rollo’s.

    Now I’m a dyed in the wool, lifelong SNP supporter, and if I find your ageist attacks distasteful and bitter imagine just how those elderly waverers must feel and react?

  103. peekay says:

    galamcennalath says:

    “Perhaps a Wee Blue Book Second Edition to every older person in Scotland might have a dramatic effect!”

    I had thought that if every year WoS started squirreling a few pounds away somewhere then when Indyref2 comes up there might be enough in the kitty to have WBB ver2.0 delivered to every Scottish household

  104. Colin McBeth says:

    I will be visiting Edinburgh next week from London, I’ll be sure to go to Rollos, equally I’ll sure as hell won’t be using Barhead travel.

  105. heedtracker says:

    @ CameronB Brodie, fascinating link and cults aren’t so bad. This my old school. Just saying like. Quite near Culter, Peterculter and Maryculter too. Cybernat went to Cults. Well wannabe Cybernat. Spooky.

    http://www.cults-academy.aberdeen.sch.uk

    Actually this is the new Cults. Aberdeen council flattened the perfectly fine old one, mine, and rebuilt a brand new one next to it. Part of a big school rebuild and very tasty PFI scam, 30+ year pay off, cash funnelled through tax haven that no one knows who owns, usual New SLabour opacity of UK only bullshit. Or just Another UKOK unionist farce in Aberdeen. You want to see that lot piss away money on nothing.

  106. gordoz says:

    Aye a right bunch o’ Proudscot eejits under the apron.

    I know who’s disgusted 45% + of the population.

    “Yet another stab at Rangers FC” ???

    Seriously what is this person trying to defend ?

    Totally morally bankrupt club. I feel sorry for the gen footie fans but 70% aren’t at Ibrox for the football; lets be honest and the evidence of their ‘Ultras jolly’ into George Sq still haunts me.

    Its a difficult sell trying to be a YES / Rangers fan;
    “Rev tell yer mate to ask Allan Bisset for advice”.
    Think he goes about it a bit better – more on the low profile than trying to defend bigoted Unionism.

    Sorry when it comes to Football or Country I know where my heart is, was and always will be … sad others seem to struggle with this.

  107. Capella says:

    Scotland 45 Japan 10. I know nothing about rugby but so pleased that the Scottish Rugby team have defied the pundits. Without the aid of bagpipes too, after the ban!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34267460

  108. Ronnie Boyd says:

    (Readers may or may not be astounded to learn that almost every participant in the hate campaign shares a fondness for a particular recently-formed football club.)

    You just can’t help yourself, can you, Rev?

    So much of the output of this site is incredible, utterly shaming the so-called media.

    Sometimes though you’re just a complete prat.

  109. Conan the Librarian™ says:

    @K.A.Mylchreest

    You’re a bit out of order mate, a main in Rollo’s is about the same as a fish supper in the chippie along the road.

  110. Hetty4yes says:

    Peekay,

    my well off, no voting, probably right if not very right wing upstairs neighbours, retired, had good jobs, cheap mortgage, nice pensions, house worth a fortune, had the wee blue book.
    ( I asked if she had read it, in a long, frustrating conversation just before the ref last year, ie, we are ‘too poor’).

    They read it and still voted no, the blinkered like to remain so.

    So glad they are the exception.

  111. Stoker says:

    foggie wrote:
    “Stoker @ 1.04pm…You do know BT owns Plusnet?”

    I think you’ll find your answer if you read the rest of the thread!
    😉

  112. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 23 September, 2015 at 3:42 pm

    ” … It is undeniable that a majority of people over 55, or whatever it is, voted No. The older the group, the higher the No percentage.”

    And thereby hangs the exact point that is being made to you. There is absolutely no proof that the mere fact of being elderly made people vote no.

    There is, though, much evidence that the older a group of people becomes the larger a proportion of them who become, (small c), conservative. That is, not necessarily politically conservative but in the sense of more resistant to change.

    ” … IMO they will not be internet users. They will form their world view through TV, radio and the papers.”

    Once more there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that your opinion is correct. The scientific evidence is that there will always be a certain proportion of people who will become more and more resistant to change, of any kind, as they grow older.

    If such a former firebrand of the almost Soviet Communist Party Labour Left wing as Alistair Darling can become so bitterly opposed to, left of centre Scottish independence, and to do, so side with the Tory Party. What chance of a non political elderly person being less prone to accept change?

  113. gordoz says:

    @Robert Peffers

    You live in your reality Robert – I stand by the words I wrote, not yours.

    However you seem to avoid the fact that 75% of over 65 voted No; (no matter how many words you write)

    If its the truth that hurts so be it. Its still the truth.

  114. CameronB Brodie says:

    Iain More
    I was specifically talking about Scottish Unionist but I feel what you say. 😉

    Seriously though, it is hard to show compassion to the corrupt, the selfish, or the ignorant, who I think were well represented among the hard No vote. These were not the people targeted by Gordon Brown’s pensions and healthcare terrorism, as their identity is largely informed by Unionism. They are cargo cultists divorced from reality but firm in their belief that Scotland is naturally subordinate to England.

    It’s a pretty safe bet that the outlook of many Unionists displays evidence of “right-midedness”, or the attitude that wealth is an indication of value and virtue.

  115. yesindyref2 says:

    Bile and glee from Daniel Sanderson in the Herald “THE SNP’s favourite oil expert has painted a stark picture of the future of the North Sea, warning that it would not generate substantial tax revenues for the “foreseeable future”.” and Lewis MacDonald (Labour of course) “Experts have estimated that 65,000 jobs have been lost across the UK and that means tens of thousands in Scotland”.

    There’s such a sad negative side to Unionists who would prefer to see bad news for Scotland, than good news. A hair in their soup would be something to celebrate.

    Meanwhile from the SNP last week: “SNP Energy Spokesperson Callum McCaig has today welcomed the news that of a new oil discovery in the Norwegian sector of the North Sea by Scottish company Faroe Petroleum but says the UK Government must launch a consultation on exploration incentives for the oil and gas industry.”

    I’m sure Labour and their sidekick Daniel would back that call from the SNP.

    Wouldn’t they?

  116. Lenny Hartley says:

    Stoker, sorry the perils of reading comments on a small screen. Re Plusnet following taken from Plusnet Wikipedia page.

    On 16 November 2006, it was announced that BT were making an offer for all shares in Plusnet. The BT deal (worth approximately £67 million) was declared unconditional on 24 January 2007 (after OFT approval was granted).[2]

    On 5 March 2007, shortly after the BT acquisition, the Plusnet chief executive, Lee Strafford, and the finance director, Neil Comer, were dismissed by BT.[3] Strafford was replaced as CEO by a former BT employee, Neil Laycock, who had been with Plusnet in various senior roles for the preceding 3 years.

    BT bought the Brightview Group in July 2007, and Brightview’s subsidiary Madasafish became a trading name of Plusnet.[4]

  117. yesindyref2 says:

    As far as the age debate with older people becoming more conservative which I agree with, according to Ashcroft 96% of Conservative voters voted NO in the Ref.

  118. Robert Peffers says:

    @gerry parker says: 23 September, 2015 at 3:45 pm:

    “Consider getting your prescriptions sent to a chemist that does home deliveries.”

    Thank you for the thought, Gerry, but I sorted things out some time ago.

    The factor that had me use ASDA was that I could almost guarantee a vacant Disabled Person’s Parking bay, (I need the wee extra space at the side to unload my electric buggy from the adapted campervan), and could get almost everything I required during the one shopping trip. Including Diesel fuel for the van.

    I use Farmfoods now and there are nearby shops for the rest of the stuff. In fact the weeks shopping costs less than it did from ASDA.

  119. yesindyref2 says:

    In passing, one of the big problems I found during the Ref was being able to quickly get my hands on ScotGov statistics to pull up Unionist posters who invent figures to suit their narrative, and the same problem is there even today.

    Last night I had to correct a poster, this is a welll-known Labour councillor still trying to say councils lost out under the SNP council tax freeze, who way saying the block grant for 2015 was £37.5 billion.

    Well it’s not, it looks like it’s £29.9 billion, but I got that from reform Scotland or somesuch, as I couldn’t find it on the Scotgov website. They badly need to have easy to read summary webpages on their website with such simple information as the total block grants from 1999-present, with the Barnett consequentials marked separately. There’s not even a one to one correspondence between spending with deficit, and block grants (as far as I can see).

    They’re not helping the likes of me fight the garbage that comes out of the Unionist camp.

  120. yesindyref2 says:

    @Rev
    If that’s the only “vote NO” in the park, by my rough caclulations that covers less than 2% of the total spectator area in the stands. By that logic, tarring 100% of supporters with the actions of 2%, we’re all UKIP supporters.

  121. mealer says:

    Robert Peffers 5.17,
    I’m well aware of people’s increasing conservatism as they age,but I think other factors have to be considered.Yes voters withstood a barrage of terror before the last referendum.I’m not so sure that enough of them will change to No to replace the large number of No voters who are passing away every day.

    I have a suspicion that the 25% or so of older people who voted Yes will have been supporters of independence in the 1970s also.They may have got a bit more conservative,but still support independence.This is based entirely on personal experience gained from hundreds of hours of canvassing,but I believe its worthy of consideration.

  122. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert Peffers
    I am not disagreeing with the premise that advancing maturity brings about a more conservative outlook. What I do doubt is that the elderly of the future will share the same values and outlook of those of the past. They will have grown up in an entirely different Scotland to that of their grandparents. There has also been a technological revolution perhaps more significant than the Gutenberg press, which has broken the MSM monopoly over the dissemination of information. The elderly of the future are unlikely to share a fondness for imperialism and less likely to support tradition for tradition’s sake, IMO.

  123. Paula Rose says:

    On the subject of older people – many of those I spoke to considered themselves British (yes Robert I know) and were proud of what “Britain” (UK) had achieved, the Welfare State, NHS and so on. I convinced many that a Yes vote would secure these rather than a No vote that would endanger them.

  124. john king says:

    Scotland 43 Japan 10
    GIRUY BBC

  125. Grouse_Beater says:

    I shall book a table for two this weekend! 🙂

  126. john king says:

    Cameron B Brodie

    Couldnt agree more
    the baby boomers are the next (and last ) line of defence for the union
    TICK TOCK
    Oh btw Im a baby boomer born in the fifties so my generation are not WHOLLY lost! 🙂

  127. Lanarkist says:

    Cameron, Robert.

    The future older voters will mostly not be the same as the present older voters on many different levels of criteria.

    They won’t have enjoyed the huge property boom increase in their homes, they won’t have final salary pensions nor brilliant returns on modest investments.

    Not every older person enjoyed these bonuses of course but there will certainly be a lot less of them in the near future.

    The baby boomers really did live through an incredibly accelerated economy which the present working population won’t, by present circumstances, have the benefit of.

    Nor will they feel insecure about their poultry state pension benefits, presently the second worst in Europe, having had the opportunity to discover these facts in greater numbers through the internet and as a result of the Indy Ref.

  128. galamcennalath says:

    @Nana Smith

    “Alex Salmond confirms we don’t need a referendum for Scottish Independence”

    Nice one. It is clear that Alex’s job is to really really get up the Unionist’s noses, winding them up as much as possible. Nicola’s role is to be the measured stateswoman.

    What a double act!

    The snippet from Alex will have the Imperialist media coughing up fur balls.

  129. Rock says:

    The 30% elderly who voted Yes are heroes and pioneers of the independence movement. All respect to them.

    Those who are being criticised are the 70% stubborn imperialist British Nationalists who didn’t even care about their children and grandchildren’s future when voting No.

  130. handclapping says:

    Anent myself and others aged 73 or above at the Ref.

    These people were children and young adults during the war and the Labour aftermath.

    We were very much British. Yes London was bombed but so were Clydebank and Oxford. We were in it together. Those in the forces found out that money, birth and breeding didn’t stop a bullet and didn’t ensure brains, or even common sense and they brought that knowledge back to us.

    Then together we upped the benefits of National Insurance, reduced womens pension age to 60, created “full” employment and the NHS. Even I can remember that being ill no longer meant Mother having to starve to pay for the Dr and the medicine even though we were on the panel. And this was done by us as British, together.

    I as an Englishman of that vintage am not going to blame the oldies for thinking “Better Together”. We were brought up British so I’m the odd one out for voting Yes.

  131. yesindyref2 says:

    @ john king says: “Scotland 43 Japan 10
    GIRUY BBC”

    Indeed, supercilious patronising “pig”-ignorant biased provincial fact-deprived thick as two short planks bastits that they are.

  132. Flower of Scotland says:

    @Nana 5.54pm

    I’m SNP and just had another SNP,r angrily asking me ” what’s that going to do for the Independence movement” after I posted that earlier on Facebook.

    Jeez, you can’t wind anyone up these days!

  133. galamcennalath says:

    Rock says:

    Those who are being criticised are the 70% stubborn imperialist British Nationalists who didn’t even care about their children and grandchildren’s future when voting No.

    Not all of the 70% fit that description. Some do, and they are probably beyond conversion.

    There are others. Fear of loss of pound, pensions and the NHS will have effected many. Those of us who poo-hoo Brown as an idiot talking rubbish can’t imagine what it is like to be someone who accepts what he said as true! There will be many who did believe him, and many of those will not be well off. Blame the BBC and DR.

    And of course, there were those who wanted DevoMax and the perceived security of the UK, and believed it was on the table. Dumb, I know. But so much comes down to exposure to information from the Yes side.

    Next time, the focus has to be on countering traditional media with the elderly.

  134. Nana Smith says:

    @galamcennalath

    Aye Alex is a wind up merchant for sure. He’s keeping the unionists on their toes.

  135. yesindyref2 says:

    @handclapping
    Yes, and people from London were evacuated all over Britain, including in Scotland, which made bonds that might not have been there before. Some stayed, most went home, if they had one, as it was the women and children here, the men in the forces.

  136. yesindyref2 says:

    @galamcennalath
    Yes, and even now Brown hasn’t been contradicted to the general public. As for Devo Max, 66% supported it according to the polls. It used to be 66% supported more powers, but that has managed to be morphed into DM which in itself is a great achievement.

    But it doesn’t help if that 66%, or the rest, is marginalised in any way, some examples being:

    1) Elderly
    2) Rugby supporters (I love rugby)
    3) “cowards, stupid or evil for voting NO”
    4) conservative (small c or big one)
    5) Rangers supporters …

  137. Stoker says:

    john king wrote:
    “Scotland 43 Japan 10 GIRUY BBC”

    It’s no very oaften we get a gid win and as soon as we dae yer dockin points aff us Mr.King – wiz that furr the diabolical anthem singing?

    Scotland 45.10 Japan

  138. yesindyref2 says:

    Let’s hear it for Leeds. Or from the “officially sanctioned City of Leeds Pipe Band, to entertain the crowd outside and inside Kingsholm Stadium in Gloucester as Scotland won 45-10 against Japan.”

    Ironically Greig Laidlaw plays for Gloucester.

  139. john kingj says:

    wiz that furr the diabolical anthem singing?

    The guy in the third row was flat and late with the cadenza!

  140. Graham MacLure says:

    Nana Smith @5:54

    That will put the Press and Journal into “Warp Drive” along with it’s half dozen letter writers.

  141. BLMac says:

    Well, I’m still boycotting a long list of companies.

    The hardest for me is Tunnocks, I used to be an ardent consumer of their teacakes and biscuits.

    I don’t believe in feeding the enemy, so I’ll continue my little boycott.

  142. manandboy says:

    “Scottish Conservative members who voice support for independence will be asked to hand in their membership, the party has confirmed.” (Buzzfeed)
    Ruthie laying down the law – but for much longer?

  143. Gerry says:

    Rock says:
    23 September, 2015 at 6:36 pm
    The 30% elderly who voted Yes are heroes and pioneers of the independence movement. All respect to them.

    Those who are being criticised are the 70% stubborn imperialist British Nationalists who didn’t even care about their children and grandchildren’s future when voting No.
    —————
    And there’s also that percentage of yes supporters who would seek to push that 70% further away than ever from voting yes by alienating them with dumb comments such as yours, rather than seeking to reassure our elderly. After all, they probably took the brunt of project fear and deserve our understanding, not our revulsion to get them on board.

  144. Rock says:

    galamcennalath,

    “Not all of the 70% fit that description. Some do, and they are probably beyond conversion.”

    I disagree.

    The vast majority, many of whom are English born, are British Nationalists above anything else.

    They played an enthusiastic role in imperialism and colonisation and the associated triumphalism and jingoism.

    They want to live and die proud of the British Empire.

    They don’t give a damn about their children and grandchildren suffering under UK OK rule.

    Pound, pensions and NHS are just an excuse for them.

    Nothing will ever convince them to vote Yes.

    Not a penny should be wasted on trying to convince them.

    The 30% who voted Yes are mostly die hard supporters and don’t need any convincing.

    Independence will only come when those 70% have been replaced by the younger generation.

    I am not wishing for their early demise, but that is the truth about them, in my view.

  145. CameronB Brodie says:

    yesindyref2
    I was trying not to use a broad brush and was hoping to aim at blinkered, hard No types. 😉

    The majority of Scots have long aspired to greater autonomy than Westminster is prepared to consider, or the ‘constitution’ accommodate. I would reckon between a quarter and a third of the No voters can be persuaded to take greater control over their future (entirely non-scientific guesstimate).

    The Gene is out of the bottle – Scotland’s 59 MPs count for nothing in Westminster, compared to the 600 plus English MPs. As such, Scotland will always get what England wants, until we chose independence.

  146. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    O/T…

    Paraphrased from 10th September…

    Hi peeps.

    Re the Wings Over Scotland Edinburgh get-together on 26th September.

    If you’re intending going to the get-together and want a badge with your name on it, do a post in Quarantine (link at bottom left of the ‘off-topic’ page), stating what name you want on the badge.

    You have until 11.59pm on Wednesday, 23rd September, to order your badge. There is no charge; however I will point out that when in Wetherspoons, I tend to like a bottle of Tsing Tao or a pint of Orkney Dark Island, if they have it, and Pete the Camera is partial to Irn-Bru (full fat).

    8=)

  147. yesindyref2 says:

    I hate you all. I’ve been waiting, wanting to be the one who put the Chris Cairn’s fundraiser over its target, then I realised you’re all doing the same 🙁

    Currently at £7,295 of £7,500, after the article in the National gave it a boost.

  148. scotspine says:

    I haven’t read through all the above yet, but;

    Special Agent 1722 was on Twitter previously as Wanderin Ulster Scot. Nasty bigoted creep then and is now.

    No doubt he will evolve into something else now.

  149. Dr Jim says:

    Many NO postal voters never set eyes on the votes they cast
    I know many had their votes filled in by that nice Liberal Democrat lady

    She’s lovely, she just came round and filled in everybody’s forms for them, I mean who can be bothered with all that stuff anyway

    And I Fcuking proved it (Definitely an isolated incident though)
    Which you might accept, if there weren’t so many council run care homes and sheltered accommodations full of elderly people who are grateful to have a visitor who cares

    So apart from that nice lady from the Lib Dems, were there any helpful Lassies or Laddies from Labour in how many areas of our country

    Bitter? who Me?

  150. Dorothy Devine says:

    Well done Scotland an excellent win but it appears that you had tremendous help from the English pipe band who
    ” stirred ” their blood.

    I was very angry when they banned the pipes because they were “too noisy” but thanks to that English pipe band for aiding Scotland.

    From the Herald ( which was once a good newspaper),

    “AN English pipe band helped inspired Scotland to a rampant victory over Japan in the wake of a partial lifting of a bagpipe ban at the Rugby World Cup. “

  151. john king says:

    If you thought everything was out of focus back in the eighties, heres proof
    WE WEREN’T WRONG!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AghqTTX0USg

  152. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “If that’s the only “vote NO” in the park, by my rough caclulations that covers less than 2% of the total spectator area in the stands. By that logic, tarring 100% of supporters with the actions of 2%, we’re all UKIP supporters.”

    Good grief. I really don’t have the time to pick apart all the stupid in that comment.

  153. yesindyref2 says:

    @CameronB Brodie
    I agree with your comment. As the war generation moves away, a younger one ages in its place, and as you say, the values will have changed. Even though I’m a YES, I still share the war with the rest of the UK through my parents, but also I guess all the other countries that took part, often ignored by that very same imperialist hangover in Britain, to its eternal shame.

  154. Rock says:

    If anything needs boycotting in Scotland, it is Pravda GB.

    If Yes support has reached 50%, there should be 50% non payment of the Pravda GB tax.

    Enemy number one needs to be defeated first.

  155. john king says:

    BLMac says
    “The hardest for me is Tunnocks, I used to be an ardent consumer of their teacakes and biscuits.”

    Nothing that little arse Tunnock can do cant be replicated (and better) by Aldi’s
    I wouldn’t buy Tunnocks, Baxters, Mackies, or any other Quislings produce if they were the only producers left in Scotland.
    get it Tunnocks,Baxters,Mackies?
    got it?
    GOOD!

  156. galamcennalath says:

    Rock says:

    Independence will only come when those 70% have been replaced by the younger

    I’d like to think you were wrong and that more elderly NOs can be converted. My only logic is that they tend to be MSM followers and therefore have a warped and narrow view. I guess, only guess, many can be shown the wider picture.

    CameronB Brodie says:

    The majority of Scots have long aspired to greater autonomy than Westminster is prepared to consider

    Those who want DevoMax have to realise it is much more than Westminster will give. I hold out hope that this is the game changer. There are only two options, DevoNotMuch and Independence. As the current Scotland Bill proceeds that will become obvious, and final! IndyRef2 will be a straight choice with no lingering threat from DevoMax. It will be dead and buried.

  157. Lollysmum says:

    BLMac
    About Tunnocks. I shop at Lidl & they sell Tower Gate brand of caramel wafers. Better than Tunnocks & much cheaper too.

  158. Lesley-Anne says:

    Sorry for being well off topice here and also if this has been posted before. 😉

    http://www.facebook.com/463542257150300/videos/464237643747428/

  159. yesindyref2 says:

    “Good grief. I really don’t have the time to pick apart all the stupid in that comment.”

    OK OK I admit it.

    It’s probably more like 5% of the spectator area.

  160. Lollysmum says:

    C’mon folks we need to get Independence Live over the line.They are 70% funded with only 60 hours left.

    Support the independent media if you can!

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/super-app-more#/story

  161. Craig says:

    2 guys that I know are die hard Rangers fans and also were YES supporters, they told me that they were pig sick when they heard the chants directed at someone within the crowd that they found out voted YES.

    Both of them have never went back and it does pain them not being able to support the team that they love because of those Ultra Unionists

  162. Robert Peffers says:

    @gordoz says: 23 September, 2015 at 5:44 pm:

    “However you seem to avoid the fact that 75% of over 65 voted No; (no matter how many words you write)

    If its the truth that hurts so be it. Its still the truth.

    Thank you so very much, gordoz, you have opened my eyes to a great truth. You have managed to do what no one since I became interested in politics in 1946 ever managed to do.

    You have convinced me forever that I am an utter fool to mix with those who so revile me and my contemporaries as to wish so fervently we would all just die and be out of their cybernat way.

    I should comply with what 73% of my contemporaries tell me and vote no next time around. In fact best to start right now to campaign to prevent another referendum ever happening again in what time is left of my lifetime.

    Better to be accepted by 73% of my old friends and neighbours, many of whom I have known all my life, than be reviled, shunned and wished dead, buried and gone by those vile Cybernats who are mainly strangers who I now have proof wish me and my contemporaries dead, buried with the mauks crawlin oot o mi. They aa waunt iz oot o the wey o thir selfish seperatise way.

    So, gordoz, meet the latest convert to the NO voting old brigade. See you lot – yer all a load of vile sellie cybernat numpties.

    Ah’m awa up tae the howf tae hae a nicht wi ma auld naw voting cronies.

    If it hasn’t dawned upon you by now that your attitude is counter productive and there are three, not two, factors involved in any particular age group’s statistical returns in the referendum. The political belief, “YES”, the political belief, “NO”, plus the peer pressure of both the YES and NO people in the group.

    You really need to understand how you have been taken in. Which you wouldn’t have been if you knew anything whatsoever about statistics.

    Ashcroft’s poll showed 71% of 16- and 17-year-old respondents voted Yes. However, that figure is based on only 14 responses. That’ is ten YES-voters and four NO voters . There is thus a huge range of uncertainty. Yet the proportion of 16- to 24-year-olds voting YES was based on 98 cases and was 51%.

    Then Ashcroft polled a very much larger sample of older people and even I can work out the old v. young extrapolation is really, really, very skewed. Not only that but, “some people”, (Ahem!), have claimed, “English incomers”, voted mainly NO – Yet I can find no real statistical evidence.

    If you cannot see you are being manipulated ,then more fool you. Don’t you understand the Establishment has a very clear motive to drive wedges between groups of the People of Scotland and you seem determined to give them all the help they have primed you for?

    Numpties like you exert a very negative influence and the movement needs all the help it can get. The most simple truth, “YOU”, fail to accept is the most simple of all the YES side failed to convert enough people to vote YES. I’ve been at this game for a very long time and there most certainly was not

  163. yesindyref2 says:

    Better be quick, it’s at £7,460 right now

  164. crazycat says:

    @ Stoker at 2.27

    Re: phone providers

    I’ve been using the Phone Co-op (now called The Co-operative Phone and Broadband, but only very loosely connected to the other Co-op entities) for more than a decade; when I first got internet access I looked at Ethical Consumer magazine and the Phone Co-op was top of their list. Signing up for the internet required me to get their phone services too.

    I think they’re ok; they do mobile too, though I haven’t switched for that yet.

  165. Hamish100 says:

    Why was the political banner allowed in a football ground. It was a safety risk as well if it had caught fire. Probably the Police and security didn’t notice it. Maybe they will allow bagpipes in?

    Ps well done to the Saints of Perth

  166. X_Sticks says:

    @Nana

    Pure dynamite from Alex.

    Light blue touch-paper and retire to a safe distance.

    “fur balls” galamcennalath? Aye, pure spittin’ tacks. PMSL.

  167. manandboy says:

    Meanwhile, we’re still waiting for the Unionists to tell us what it is that Scotland gets out of the union with bankrupt England.
    We know what England gets from Scotland, but Scotland has to gain something from England in order for us to be better together, otherwise we’d be better apart.

    So what is it, Unionists? And we don’t mean free stuff like having the protection of UK armed forces, or using the pound, or the Embassy in Kabul or being part of Nato. We mean revenue from you to us. We give England huge revenues, but what cash does England give to us that we haven’t already given you.

    Maybe Ruthie will tell us, or David Mundell perhaps.

    Not that we don’t already know.

  168. yesindyref2 says:

    (Chris Cairns):
    “Anonymous 3 minutes ago £40GBP”

    “£7,500GBP
    raised by 187 people in 5 days”

  169. Achnababan says:

    Great thread tonight…. heres an idea (proably not original) but what I want to have is a list of pro-independence businesses that I can take my custom….

    Readers can you provide any names? Is there a YES high street anywhere (Blairgowrie mabe?)

  170. Conan the Librarian™ says:

    @Achnababan

    Well, there’s a restaurant in Stockbridge for a start…

  171. X_Sticks says:

    @Nana

    Couldn’t resist firing that into the twittersphere. I have a nasty streak 😀

    @Lollysmum

    I’m sure folk are fed up with me punting the Independence Live fundraiser, but these guys have worked hard to be part of the alternative to the broadcast MSM and have brought us some amazing stuff. They deserve our support.

    I can’t understand why it is always takes so long to raise a few quid for them. Do we not appreciate what they do? Serious question. Any analysis would help them tailor their output into something we are all prepared to support. We will really need their services if there is another indyref.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/super-app-more#/story

  172. Onwards says:

    @Gerry says:

    ..there’s also that percentage of yes supporters who would seek to push that 70% further away than ever from voting yes by alienating them with dumb comments..
    ———

    I think that’s a fair comment.
    For independence support, the age difference is definitely a factor, but it might be better talking in terms of a younger more confident generation coming through.

    Agree that people get more conservative with age, but I think that had a lesser effect on today’s pensioners compared to the fact their formative years were at a time when pro-UK identity was strongest. A far greater number of tomorrow’s pensioners will have voted YES in the 2014 referendum, and will be used to decisions being made in Scotland.

    Of course many pensioners did vote YES, but I think they have to accept that the overwhelming majority were NO voters, and it wasn’t just about pensions. Anyone dishing out leaflets or canvassing last year was well aware that old grannies were the most resistant to change. Totally stuck in their ways.

    It’s unfortunate because some older YES supporters are the most committed to independence, and may never see their dream happen. For many the 2014 referendum WAS a once in a lifetime opportunity.

  173. gordoz says:

    Is this guy Robert Peffers for real ?

    Here’s what was said that this person ‘Peffers’ is going on was so offensive and distasteful ?

    “Everyone is well aware of the debt we owe and also the input of our YES side Elder Campaigners.

    The disbelief and dismay is with those easily scared by the outpourings of a certain Gordon Brown

    Look at the vote demographic for the over 65’s

    Nearly 75% were no voting Proudscots, depriving their own children, grandchildren and youth of tomorrow the future they clearly desired (and voted for) via Independence”

    ******

    Now I’m pretty sure if the comments were so offensive or some how out of order then Rev Stu would have interjected.

    Again I’d say you use a lot of words but your not making much sense relating to what I said so leave me out of your rambling rant if you don’t mind.

  174. CameronB Brodie says:

    OT from the Rev’s twitter;

    The Fijian “haka” has a very girly end. – the Rev

    The Fijian fullback is a tickle under 20 stones. Their #@%$?! fullback. 😉

  175. Robert Peffers says:

    @mealer says: 23 September, 2015 at 6:10 pm:

    ” …
    I’m well aware of people’s increasing conservatism as they age,but I think other factors have to be considered.Yes voters withstood a barrage of terror before the last referendum.”

    I’ve posted already that these Ashcroft statistics these conclusions are based upon are absolute trash. The very first one for the youngest, (16 – 17Yo), are based upon a extremely small sample. The percentage for the next group of older teenagers shows a markedly different percentage while the sample for the over 65s is very much larger.

    These sampled results can in no way be statistically trusted. I’ve also seen claims that English Born Scots massively voted no but can find no actual poll samples that these claims are based upon.

    The simple fact is these claims are rubbish based upon rubbishy and unreliably small samples.

  176. t says:

    Rev. Stu @ 5:04 PM wrote:
    Tell you what – you get the Union Bears to stop and so will I.

    The problem here is, of course, that many of them are idiots and it just doesn’t make sense to get onto the same low level as they are.

    But comments like the one you made about Rangers have only one effect: they alienate RFC fans who — unlike the Union Bears — might still be persuaded to vote Yes in IndyRef II. And yes, while Glasgow voted in support of independence, we do still need their votes.

    So, Stu, I beg of you: don’t mix football with politics, it only hurts the our chances in the long term.

  177. michael diamond says:

    ‘They shared a fondness for a recently formed football club” no surprises there then. Bigots are we.

  178. yesindyref2 says:

    I don’t support any football team though am partial to the Junior League. As far as Rangers are concerned they were shafted by Celtic, Dundee United and most of the rest of the Premier League, they were shafted by the SFA, all of them cheered on by the MSM and TV, and to this day there’s glee in the papers and on TV when more misfortune and bad stuff hit Rangers. It’s been a vendetta against the club, a Scottish club which was successful in Scotland, and did its best in Europe.

    Ironically its woes are celebrated by a Unionist press.

  179. Onwards says:

    @Robert Peffers

    The 65+ age group shows the highest support for No (by far) in almost every opinion poll there has ever been on Scottish independence.
    One might be a fluke, but not consistently..

    And that age group is 18% of the Scottish electorate.

    No disrespect to older YES supporters, but it’s hard to deny the evidence from all the polls put together, plus the general everyday experience of many people.

    I don’t know what will convince most of them to vote YES.
    Maybe not even if a ‘Pension Vow’ was hand delivered to everyone by Nicola Sturgeon herself.
    From my experience, *many* older pensionsers are just resistant to any change at all. Again, no disrespect to the minority.

  180. Lesley-Anne says:

    For anyone who supports a certain football team from Glasgow th now may be the time to consider jumping ship to another team, any team.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34339216

    I’m thinking that after all the ongoing financial problems the team from Glasgow seems to have to have this legal bill of around £500,000 put on top it may well see the demise of said Glasgow club.

  181. Robert Peffers says:

    @CameronB Brodie says: 23 September, 2015 at 6:18 pm:

    ” I am not disagreeing with the premise that advancing maturity brings about a more conservative outlook. What I do doubt is that the elderly of the future will share the same values and outlook of those of the past.”

    Och! Cameron, give me some credit of not being a fool. I was born in a ploughman’s cottage that did not even have gas, electricity or indoors running water or inside toilets. As a boy I built crystal sets in order to hear the wireless. I went into electronics when the general public knew not what they were.

    I was at the very cutting edge of electronics before transistors were invented and I’ve been fighting this independence thing since I was a wee laddie. I’m not talking through my rear. I’ve been telling things to this forum for yonks that are only coming to light now from the likes of Alex Salmond.

    There’s a reference to a Salmond claim just up-thread a few posts before the one I’m replying to you about now. In it both Salmond and Sillers repeat just what I’ve previously posted stating the legal position.

    I have been testing the way people vote, think and change their minds for several decades. I know every trick the Unionists will pull almost before they pull it. Now go check out the sizes of the actual samples that these claims of Ashcroft claims are based upon.

    For example the claim for the 16 – 17 year olds sampled just got into double digits. Yet that for the over 65s was much, much greater. You cannot base statistical conclusions on such unequal samples. You cannot even quote an error figure.

    If memory servers it was 14 people in the 16 – 17 yo sample with 10 YES and 4 NO. You cannot base conclusions of numbers like that. What if they had asked just two more teens and they had both voted no? Do the Maths and see what I mean.

  182. Marga says:

    Seriously OT, but I just have to convey the following about Spain. News just in:

    “The management of RTVE (the Spanish BBC) have suggested to their workers that they take the oath to the Spanish flag, four days before the 27S (date of the Catalan independence plebiscite elections).

    “Army Communications Regiment 22, stationed at the broadcaster’s Prado del Rey studios, has invited journalists to exercise their “right and honour to show their commitment to the defence of Spain” during the week of key elections on Catalan independence”.

    Today a scandal has also broken where it seems an EC memo issued in English and Spanish on Catalan independence has one paragraph more in the Spanish version, condemning independence moves, that is absent from the English version. We are talking about an official EC memo signed by Junker and published on the relevant web page. An internal EC investigation is now in progress.

    Things are hotting up here, and the idea of nasty developments after the Sunday elections especially if independence wins a majority cannot now be ruled out.

  183. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 23 September, 2015 at 6:34 pm

    “Alex Salmond confirms we don’t need a referendum for Scottish Independence”The snippet from Alex will have the Imperialist media coughing up fur balls. “

    Yeah! galamcennalath, I know and I’ve been telling folks on here just that since I joined this great forum but I get called a silly old bugger for doing so. In fact I’ve been telling folks that since before Alex Salmond was born.

  184. Lesley-Anne says:

    I think you can look at our indy ref last year as just a wee warm up before the main feature Marga.

    I read, last week I think, that the banks in Catalonia were spreading the old “vote YES to independence and we will leave” shite.

    Personally I believe Catalonia WILL vote in a way that leaves Madrid and especially Brussels in absolutely NO doubt that they want independence.

  185. Croompenstein says:

    @indyref2 – nice rewriting of history there, nobody shafted Rangers but Rangers…

  186. Stoker says:

    @ crazycat (8.29pm).
    Thank you for the info.
    _____

    @ Achnababan (8.41pm). Re; “a list of pro-independence businesses”
    I know it’s not quite what you had in mind but i’ve been half-heartedly toying with the idea of producing a list of pro Yes pubs. I haven’t got very far but the only criteria to be met is that the pub has to be owned by pro Yessers!

    The Railway Tavern – Motherwell.
    The Red Lion – Kelso.
    The Clutha – Glasgow.
    The Yes Bar – Glasgow.
    MacCallums – Inverness.
    The Gellions – Inverness.

    That’s as far as i’ve got so feel free to add to it folks.

  187. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says: 23 September, 2015 at 6:57 pm:

    “Yes, and people from London were evacuated all over Britain, including in Scotland, which made bonds that might not have been there before.”

    Want to know where I was, yesindyref2?

    I’ll tell you anyway.

    In Hants, actually within the perimeter of the Army camp known as Bordon Camp. We were living in a cottage on an orchard. As such it was protected from, but lay within, the camp perimeter. It was the camp for the Scots Canadians who were wiped out during the Dieppe Raid.

    I attended school in the nearby town where I was beaten up daily by the older English Kids for no better reason than I had a Scottish Accent. Then I got caned by the English headmaster who claimed that the lone, tiny wee, Scottish boy was a troublemaker picking fights with gangs of big English louts. Yes indeed, “There were bonds forged that hadn’t been there before”. Can’t say I noticed, though.

  188. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says: 23 September, 2015 at 7:43 pm: :

    I hate you all. I’ve been waiting, wanting to be the one who put the Chris Cairn’s fundraiser over its target, then I realised you’re all doing the same 🙁

    Currently at £7,295 of £7,500, after the article in the National gave it a boost.”

    Hope it doesn’t close before I get my bank account sorted out and get my order in. I had a relapse and couldn’t get out to sort things out. It’s so frustrating to have cash but be unable to access your bank services.

  189. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 23 September, 2015 at 7:52 pm:

    “Good grief. I really don’t have the time to pick apart all the stupid in that comment.”

    I’ll do it for you, Rev Stu.

    They were not prevented from their little effort by either the stewards, nor by the barstewards that are the management. It is thus seen as officially agreed Rangers, (newcompany), management policy.

  190. Stoker says:

    Pubs owned by pro Yessers:

    The Railway Tavern – Motherwell.
    The Red Lion – Kelso.
    The Woodcutter – Galashiels.
    The Clutha – Glasgow.
    The Yes Bar – Glasgow.
    MacCallums – Inverness.
    The Gellions – Inverness.

    I forgot to add The Woodcutter in Galashiels – now added.

  191. Luigi says:

    Anyone planning to visit Bar Rollo, please remember to write a review. 🙂

  192. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Fundraiser is still open, now at £7,600 but possibly not moving up as the target was £7,500 though it’s flexible funding. Open another 18 days.

    It’d be worth contacting Chris Cairns or get the Rev to do that for you to reserve a copy – or perhaps a winger can tweet the Rev to do it for you? I don’t do twitter or I’d do it.

    Due date for me to get my hardback copy is October, no idea when the order would go in from Chris for that first edition.

  193. yesindyref2 says:

    @Croompenstein
    Well, there is that.
    @Robert Peffers
    And there is that too!

    But apart from that …

  194. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “As far as Rangers are concerned they were shafted by Celtic, Dundee United and most of the rest of the Premier League, “

    Cough, splutter.

  195. Paula Rose says:

    Is there a league in England that Rangers could go and play with, that also like waving Union Jacks?

  196. yesindyref2 says:

    @Rev
    🙂

    Have a glass of water.

  197. Daisy Walker says:

    Lots of O/T’s, Rollo, next time I’m in Edinburgh I will eat and drink at yours, even if you don’t do soup. But if you ever decide to do soup, will you call it Boufant de Jour?

    Paula Rose – well done you, that’s twice in the past few days – you’ve just reminded everyone – and got down to practically converting No’s to Yes – you are the business.

    Re the old dearies – please folks, can we not be too hard. Me old dad’s 76 and he’s been a Yesser all his day. I’m lucky – I was debunked of WM BS at a young age. If you didn’t have that (and that’s a lot of households in Scotland) then without Wings and WGD, etc – you were never going to get the quantity and quality of info.

    The WBB for the virgins out there – it was an intro, it has set the door ajar, wheels are beginning to turn. It is up to us to keep the info and the facts and the good behaviour coming.

    And if you don’t believe me, think back to someone who heard all of the WBB stuff for the first time. It was not enough, it was an intro. If they were interested, they went away and verified it all on the net. And then they were Yes, but they needed the corroboration and it was mainly only available online. I think its a bit much to expect yir granny to run out buy a laptop and get broadband all in a oner for this, and why should they.

    Me Auld Dad said after the result – a lot of his age group would have been well aware of and frightened of all the hard work needed to create the `New Scotland’. And they would be feeling that from a position of experience – seeing their parents coming home from the war, building the NHS, the education system, the welfare state.

    Can we be kind to them, if we can’t change their vote, can we least be kind to them. And I fully believe we can change some of their votes, the more we do, the more ‘respectable and competent we are, the more calm and collected our reasoning and the less pigs we… oh, sorry, off at a tangent. Was it a suckling pig? by an chance, if so it doesn’t bode well for the WM Peado enquiry does it.

    One of the things I don’t see being nostalgicked by the Meedja is the ‘spirit of the Blitz’. We have allies and kindred spirits in England – particularly amongst the old, and they played a very large part in the building of the NHS etc.

    They don’t get Scot Indy, just as they never got it with any of the other colonies, but they do get social justice, they do like us, and they know things are not well down south. They are even envious of us just now for our savvy and spirit and movement. They are our neighbours.

    Just think if the Scots are uneducated about the ways of the UK, how much less incentive is there in England to find out the truth? We’ve only had this shite for 308 years, they’ve had it since their earliest ancestors.

    I don’t know what did not work for Indy 1, but I do know what did, it was never being impolite or rising to the bait from a Noer, it was always dealing with facts, it was always being an ambassador for Yes.

    Indy 1 was the first time ever, I heard people at work, people all over, talking about how things are and how they came about and how they can be changed. It is not a door that will open again in the same way.

    If the information is going to get into the mainstream, it will have to be by us, person to person and it will have to be in unmissable print, widespread on set subjects.

    The time for that is now, and who’s to stop us, we do not need permission for this.

    Best wishes to all in Catalan and Spain. Peace.

  198. Juan P says:

    @luigi

    I went to Rollo a few months ago and the food was excellent.

    The staff were also fantastic and you could tell the owner took a great deal of pride in the business. I’ll write up a proper review for them when I get a chance.

    So pathetic that people have stooped to writing fake reviews and I hope this stunt backfires and Rollo’s goes from strength to strength.

  199. Cadogan enright says:

    @stoker

    Victoria in Forres – owner an ardent Yesser

  200. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Anent the Pro-No tendencies of the over-75s.

    This is the generation brought-up to be “British”, at a time when Scottish nationalism was very much a fringe movement – Wendy Wood and so forth.

    This generation also served in the War, in Korea, in Cyprus and so forth, or did National Service, when they met, probably for the first time, contemporaries from England, Northern Ireland and Wales, and realised, they were just like us.

    I can recall, when my late father first took me to Scotland v England football matches at Hampden, the likes of Tom Finney and Bobby Charlton would be applauded by the Scottish fans.

    Then, England won the World Cup in 1966 (what do you mean you had never heard of this?); the English media went into Engurland, Engurland Engurland overdrive – we Scots suddenly saw the Union Flag becoming an English symbol – and the fall-out saw Scottish nationalism surge.

    In the 1950s, the Scottish Unionist Party was perhaps the dominant political party in Scotland, then the SUP was taken over by the Conservative Party. They might have restyled themselves, in Scotland, as the Scottish Conservatice and Unionist Party, but, it was soon obvious – the big decisions were made in England.

    There are, I would suggest, still a considerable number of this pre-1966 generation, who consider themselves “British” first, “Scottish” second. There will, for a while yet, be products of certain Scottish schools, who will follow this template, but, the numbers are decreasing – the days of “British” first, “Scottish” second, will soon, I am sure, be over.

  201. Mik Johnstone says:

    No 431 on the list ? what list is that then? David (Squeal like a Pig Boy) Hameron’s favourite pig farmers? the local sex offenders list? Council house waiting list? he/she seems to be a bit of a plank has anyone told these clowns their game is over?and that Independence is Inevitable ? lol

  202. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    For the list of pro-YES bars, you can’t miss out The Clyde Bar in Helensburgh, which was the venue for ‘Wings Over Helensburgh’ on 25th July.

    https://sites.google.com/site/webgaffer/home/wos-helensburgh-25-07-15

  203. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    And, how could we forget the Invergowrie Inn?

  204. Sandy Henderson says:

    Re. Rangers.
    It’s not the players, ground staff, etc. who have brought the disrepute. I feel sorry for them. It’s the powers that be behind them, out to exploit the genuine supporters & line their own pockets. Hence the involvement of the long arm of the law.
    Incidentally, give ITV commentators their due, they apologised for the overheard ‘industrial’ language being used to personify fans’ advice to the playing staff.
    At my team’s home ground, prior to kick-off, fans are reminded that ‘We are a family club’ & that such language that will cause offence will result in removal from the ground & subsequent possible prosecusion & banned for life. To my knowledge, 100% success to date. Pleasure to go there.
    That ethical football club:- Ross County FC.

  205. Ken500 says:

    No publicity is bad publicity. After this the Cafe’s taking will go up with an increase in supporting customers. A wee write up in the Press will do the trick. SNPbaddddd. Independence baddest.

    NO supports sheep fans. Like lemming going off a cliff. Are are actually trying to rehabilitate Murphy? Impossible. Why do People keep on making the same mistake, over and over and over. Barking Mad.

    It is mainly UK Gov(UKiP) that supports leaving the EU. Ie ‘EU Referendum. Scottish Gov majority want to stay in the EU. Both Catalonia & rest of Spain want to stay in the EU. Different, The EU Governance did not say Scotland would not be allowed to stay in the EU. The EU want Scotland to say. The Official EU line was that the Scottish Referendum was an internal matter and nothing to do with them to decide. It was Westminster who tried to influence other individual member State to make declarations. That misfired. Westminster said, ‘It was a vote for the Scottish people’, then interfered (secretly) negatively in every way it could. Broke ‘Election’ rules.

    Different from Catalonia and Scotland.(Pro rata as a %) More voters support Independence in Scotland (a country) in a supposed equal? Union than Catalonia which has more rights than Scotland, as a larger pop Province of Spain. (a fifth of Spain pop 40million) Scotland a tenth of UK pop with no/ less rights. Scotland can be outvoted 10 to 1 in Westminster less say – No democracy. No fiscal autonomy. Catalonia has autonomy and more rights as part of Spain. Different.

  206. Stoker says:

    @ Cadogan enright: “Victoria in Forres – owner an ardent Yesser”

    Thanks Cadogan – now added to list – The Victoria Hotel, Forres.

    I was up that way for the New Year and tried a couple of bars on the High Street and down the Tollbooth but never got the opportunity to clarify their stances. The boss and i were also treated to a lovely meal at The Mosset but once again far far too busy to talk to staff etc and establish the owners stance.
    _______________

    @ Bdtt.
    Thanks Brian but just to confirm – are both the owners of The Clyde Bar & Invergowrie Inn Yessers?

    The reason i ask is that you don’t make it clear and given that one of my favourite pubs is owned and run by a very nice and accommodating No voting English non-male 🙂 i am reluctant to add to the list unless we know for sure they are Yessers.

    Plus i don’t have any experience of the aforementioned establishments and i’m relying on you for confirmation.

  207. Ken500 says:

    Rangers are failing because sectarian doesn’t pay. Until the ‘management’ and fans realise that they will lose more support. Successful teams win more support (more finances). Sport, religion and politics should not mix. It’s only a game. A losing game for Rangers. Sectarianism is old fashioned belongs to another decade,

    Voient, criminal anti social behaviour on the streets should not tolerated. In any form. It should be properly policed. The authorities should stamp it out. Without fear or favour of religion, politics or sport. That is their duty and responsibility under the Law. People and criminal behaviour should be treated equally. No ‘team’ or ‘organisation’ should be favoured or exempt. Fans/punters are being used and priced out of the Market.

  208. El Crossbow says:

    Magic, it’s now an official yestraunt

  209. David Alexander says:

    In answer to the question tweeted by Special Agent, No.

  210. X_Sticks says:

    Radical Road pub in Edinburgh is a Yes establishment.

  211. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Stoker.

    Kendomacaroonbar has more knowledge of The Clyde but they had a pile of iScots on the bar when we were there in July.

    In the case of the Invergowrie Inn, it’s the management, rather than the (hands-off) owners. We’re having our next Wings get-together there on 24th October.

  212. G H Graham says:

    I can confirm that the Rollo family have been in contact with Police Scotland & that an inquiry has been started.

    Although I remain confident that the media in Scotland will continue to turn a blind eye to alleged criminal behaviour by a small but hard core group of BritNat zoomers.

  213. ErinT says:

    “but not one asking WHY this is happening!”

    It’s because you can’t fathom differing opinions, right?

  214. NN says:

    When football supporters stop treating a game as a religion and a reason to hurt people, burn property or make political choices then they will stop getting stick from here. It’s no coincidence it happens to come mostly from one particular place either. If you can’t police yourself and enjoyed turning a blind eye to the excesses for generations then inevitably others end up doing it for you.

  215. Stoker says:

    Thanks X_Sticks, now added.

    And thanks to you too Brian, i’ll add them with a (?) until i can get 100% confirmation but your post has reminded me of another wee pub near Kelso which stocks piles of Bella Caledonia mags and they were distributing copies of the WBB to customers pre referendum.

    Updated list:

    The Clutha Bar – Glasgow.
    The Clyde Bar – Helensburgh.(?)
    The Gellions – Inverness.
    The Invergowrie Inn – Dundee.(?)
    MacCallums – Inverness.
    The Radical Road – Edinburgh.
    The Railway Tavern – Motherwell.
    The Red Lion – Kelso.
    The Templehall Hotel – Morebattle.
    The Victoria Hotel – Forres.
    The Woodcutter – Galashiels.
    The Yesbar – Glasgow.

    I’m now going to be shifting this little project over into Off-topic before the Rev starts polishing his hammers.



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