A fair assessment
Posted on
October 17, 2014 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Mark Steel in the Independent, 16 October 2014:
Craig Murray said something quite similar recently from the other side, as it were, and at the moment we’re finding it quite tough to disagree with either of them.
That’ll be why the Labour people who supported a no vote aren’t running the country then I guess.
Tough to read and absorb, but Mr Steele has a nugget of truth in the core of that.
The highlighted paragraph, sums up unionist thinking.
Getting less inclined to watch Max Keiser.He always has a wee dig about how stupid,daft and other less gentle terms aimed at Scots, giving up their chance to dump the london elite. It cuts deep.
Let them eat cake!
Brainwashed by the BBC.
I’m going to try that with my bank manager Monday. Hey, we both knew I never had any intention of paying that credit card! So sue me, sucker 🙂
It seems to me that the opinion poll showing YES ahead woke up the London-based media, but then an opinion poll is a poll after all. Perhaps what really woke them up was the vote itself – 45% YES. That was proof of how many of us wanted Independence, in a record-breaking turnout.
Since then there seems to have been a few more interesting articles in the non-Scottish MSM, and perhaps a bit more of a sympathetic and understanding slant on it. Of course, they are also into the tribal Tory v Labour politics, but perhaps there is a good referendum legacy in the non-Scottish MSM, a legacy that may help next time.
Can’t disagree with it either. Thank God the nay-sayers saved us from a self-seeking, pocket-lining, bunch of political wankers…oh, wait a minute,,,
Mark Steel is a comedian, and pretty funny too. But I wouldn’t go to a comedian for political analysis. If he wasn’t living in Scotland for 2 years before the referendum then he will never have experienced the level of scary propaganda people were subjected to. Others in Quebec, Greece and now Catalonia do know about it.
What was the Independent’s position on “Independence”?
So how do we get from 45% to 51% without offending anyone?
i, like many, feel indyscot is a no brainier, and in many ways calling someone an idiot is a compliment.
it reminds me of holding a steel drift and saying to the person with the sledge hammer “i nod my head and you hit it.”
beyond comprehension, sums it up.
wtf, despair.
i certainly relate with graig’s fatherly frustration, “you blithering idiots, what were you thinking!
Capella
The Independent had some good articles at times on indy, and so did the FT, Grun and even Telegraph. I think their understanding improved a bit from what Salmond described in better words, as ignorant institutional anti-provincial bias. Same went, by the way, for the Beeb and ITV.
A fair bit of the bias wasn’t deliberate, just thick.
Thing is – it didn’t matter whether you believed the vow or not….it gave you an excuse to vote No if you were fearful of the future (and a lot of people were – even the soft Yes people).
It’s that fear that we have to overcome somehow. Given the choice ‘would you rather be shafted by an unknown but terribly risky future or by a bunch of twats that at least you think you know something about?’ a lot of people voted for what they perceived as the less painful option.
Andy-B
i expect the reality is that we’re already over 50% now.
but there is no need to offend anyone simply present the facts.
more assurance on pensions NHS welfare that sort of thing.
Mark Steel really does nail these articles.
Consider for one micro second the Proud Scots Buts that think UKOK people are laughing with them.
I don’t believe people did believe the Vow. But some did believe the orchestrated promises of Devo Max, Home Rule and Federalism from Gordon Brown, George Galloway and Alistair Darling, spokesmen for the Better together campaign, in the 2 weeks before the vote, which the Vow appeared to back up. Lord Ashcroft’s research showed that 25% believed it. That’s 500,000 votes.
That’s a lot of disappointed people out there who could benefit from some information to counter the propaganda.
Ouch, that bloody well hurt, but Mark Steel pretty much nailed it there.
I don’t feel quite so harsh to some of the NOs.
When it comes to politics, we Wingers use the Internet, we read widely, we exchange views and ideas, we criticise, we think! Not everyone fits that description. A lot of people somehow manage to ignore politics and get on with other aspects of life. When they must make a decision it’s not surprising they look first to the media and the BBC. And, if they look no further they aren’t actually going to get the info they need! Ignorance leads to poor decision making.
Then there’s the whole risk and fear thing. We feared a No vote and felt the risk was staying in the Union. Again, huge numbers of people felt they were justified in believing the BBC and time served elected representatives. We all know they spread fear on an industrial scale.
And, promises. We Wingers thought they were lies. Many others, for all the above reasons felt justified in accepting promises, vows, offers at face value.
I feel sorry for a big chunk of No voters. They believed they lived in a mature democracy with a free media and honourable elected representatives. They got that all wrong and made the wrong decision.
Perhaps I’m suggesting half of No voters, have a perception which is blinkered into believing what is actually corrupt and self serving, is to them largely wholesome and moral.
They need to have their eyes opened through being exposed as much as possible to our alternative and more realistic view of reality.
As others have said often, we won’t convert them by abusing them.
Scot Goes Pop has some interesting poll figures
Scottish voting intentions for the May 2015 UK general election :
SNP 42.1% (-0.7)
Labour 24.9% (-2.1)
Conservatives 18.2% (+2.5)
Liberal Democrats 6.4% (-0.6)
UKIP 5.1% (+0.8)
Greens 2.6% (+0.5)
why is this not simple
vote yes get independence
vote no get the vow
If no vow then vote void
simples
Can’t believe UKIP are polling more than the Greens in all these polls, it’s really scary.
Scottish unionist MPs: The only politicians in the world that got into politics to change things, but refuse/don’t want the powers to make those changes. Oh wait, that’s right. They’ll stomp down to Westminster and force change on the establishment.
@ valerie
“Can’t believe UKIP are polling more than the Greens in all these polls, it’s really scary.”
I think this illustrates the power of propaganda. The BBC push Nigel Farage UKIP daily. They are to feature in the TV debates while the Greens and SNP are excluded.
I read Steel’s article, and though I usually enjoy his comedic slant, this time I think he’s off.
Notwithstanding the promises of further powers made to the voters prior to referendum day, the fact that many elderly people and particularly pensioners were misled about the future financial situation by politicians and their campaigning mouthpieces, are no more ‘stupid’ than those who take financial advice from those in positions to give it, ie bank staff, insurance agents, etc. and are misled by the sales pitch and sign up for something they are not fully informed about, or those who fall prey to any other con.
This amounts to deception, and in the current cases of banks mis-selling PPI and the like, amounts to an offence that requires compensation for wrongdoing.
Steel would have been closer to the truth, and had more impact, pointing this out.
I was reminded earlier tonight of a programme at the millennium one of those ‘who is the Greatest Britain’ type shows.
Mo Mowlan choose Winston Churchill,and i remember thinking at the time eh? surely she would have picked one of the great thinkers,or social reformer’s but, no she choose the ultimate Unionist.
What was her reasoning? he was a great war leader who had saved Britain during the War.
Says it all really about New Labour.
The folk who got their info from outwith the MSM/BBC were much more likely to be Yes voters, except the I’m alright Jacks and the Proud Scots.
There was an article which mentioned Arran where the demographic might point to a no vote but it was overall Yes, because they don’t rely on the printed press much due to difficulties with deliveries.
Although I suppose they still watch the BBC.
This might have been posted before but it was during a Sarah Smith interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh3JH6Jz7Qw&feature=youtu.be
Capella
Yes, interesting poll. Shows (elecotral calculus) SNP with 44, Lab with 11, lib 1 and Con 3. But that doesn’t take account of UKIP targetting 2 or 3 of those Tory seats, and some of the 11 Labour ones. That could split the vote – in favour of the SNP even more.
If No voters were shouting from the roof with anger at broken vow I would feel sorry for them. But they are not.
My conclusion is the majority of no voters simply do not care and never cared beyond maintaining the status quo.
If any are upset no voters that are struggling to find a way to admit this please voice it on Wings as we need you going forward. You may get some grief but I would be happy to hear from you.
Does anyone know any no voters that are upset? Any chance getting them on here to speak up and bring others on board ?
I managed to visit Maryhill foodbank today the monies from the sale of Brian/Pete’s badges £68.10 at ( Hope over Fear Rally ) I made that up to £100 & donated it on behalf of Wings Over Scotland. Nicola has put it up on Maryhill,s twitter page.
Valerie says:
“Can’t believe UKIP are polling more than the Greens in all these polls, it’s really scary.”
Fear not Valerie. If one of their goons gets in via PR, can you imagine the sport they would make at FMQs ?
Humiliated, every time they spoke, and by inference so would be those lost souls who voted for them.
UKIP are a Tory invention. Fraj has his eyes on Cleggs seat.
Voters getting their information solely from the BBC I would suspect will be a little more difficult to convince that those who get their information from a variety of sources.
https://twitter.com/jdpoc/status/522141593005219840
@ Valerie, 6:38pm
“Can’t believe UKIP are polling more than the Greens in all these polls, it’s really scary.”
As Capella said, the BBC is the answer; Farage’s face was all over it for over 2 years.
Right now, Landward on BBC2 is telling us all about how much oil there is in the Clair field, you know that place they wouldn’t mention before the referendum, never reported D Cameron hotfooting it there on his first visit to Shetland as PM.
The voters in Britain will get whoever the BBC is punting for whomsoever pulls their strings.
To quote the first president of the SNP
“The enemies of Scottish Nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls. Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination.”
Jola throwing our own words back in our face.
My belief is that
Education = Enlightenment
Might not be all rosy in the ukip garden, farage manages to say “banana republic” in his comment.
http://rt.com/uk/196584-efdd-collapse-ukip-crisis/
Yeah, that’s what I thought Bettertogether’s line of thought was at the time of the referendum. It’s a shame their tricks worked.
Couldn’t help noticing the hilarious article “down below” that article from the Independent.
women’s cycling team from Colombia 😀
@ liz, 7:04pm
Re the Sarah Smith interview. Cat Boyd looked as though she had lost the will to live on that clip – probably wondering why she had bothered entering the den of misinformation.
On the subject of Mark Steel’s article, he might not have got the whole picture about why we had a no vote, but, he certainly hit the nail on the head when it comes to the disrespect national politicians have for the electorate.
@ Caledonia 6:45pm
Yep I agree. Surely these folk that voted No on the promise of the Vow.. if the Vow turns out to be a useless pile of pish then does that not mean the result is void and another Referendum should take place? Vote was won on a big fat lie!
What happened in if the SNP thought in the last week they were going to lose so said they would make everyone in Scotland £10k a year better off.. everyone votes for Independence.. then they come out and say ‘oh yeah sorry about that but now we can’t afford it.. but thanks for voting Yes anyway!’ I’m sure merry hell would break out and vote declared void.
O/T
re new-Media funding appeals from previous thread.
There are more than a few of these kicking around and there does need to be some consolidation at some stage to prevent duplication and waste of resources.
Looking forward to what Jack and James come back with as they look to have an ambitious plan and they might just pull it off which would be a game changer.
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/broadcast-news-for-scotland
They will need some big funding to move to the next level so worth keeping a few pennies back for that one.
Other effort that’s worth supporting is the really great stuff the Indy Live guys do. Small monthly donation there would help them continue and they aren’t asking for much.
http://www.independencelive.net/support-us
Bella and Newsnet of course knows what they are doing and are worth supporting
Regarding other broadcast appeals looking for big money some scepticism might be in order until see how the dust settles, or unless you are confident of their bona-fides.
“Maybe one way they can reverse this is to try a more forthright approach, and to start with they could say: ‘If the Scottish are so daft as to believe our vow, maybe that proves they’re not fit to run their own country anyway, the idiots.’”
I find it difficult to argue against. However 45% were not fooled and at a guess probably 35%-45% were NO voters from the hard core unionists to the group that accepted the general propaganda (Pound / EU / etc).
The Vow probably hit 10%. That 10% accepted the promise hyped by the BBC of “DevoMax”.
An interesting band who trust Gordon Brown, accept vows by unionist leaders in the Daily Record etc….. now they are “trusting or gullible” people. Perhaps a fairer description than stupid because suggesting that they are stupid transfers the responsibility for the guilty deed from the liars to the victims.
Regarding the ‘daft Scottish people’ the article speaks of.. one of my old workmates and friends only read the Daily Record and watched the BBC during the build up and was going to vote No. I sat with him and went through EVERYTHING with him and opened his eyes to the lies and brainwashing to the point he was changed to Yes.
Found out through someone else after the vote that he ended up voting No. When I asked him about why he did he said ‘well you’s weren’t gonna get it anyway’!! I said well obviously not with stupid thinking like that!!
Still can’t f*ckin believe him. Hard to even talk to him now.
Yeah things like that show that we do have a lot of thick folk that just don’t get it.. and probably never will.
But this is ignoring the sheer force of Project Fear. Throughout the night before pols opened 18th Sept, BBC World Service broadcast every half hour 2 headline stories, 1-Australian PM orders 800 Police manhunt for jihadi plot to behead memebers of Austrialian public, in public and 2- Scotland votes on separation from the UK tomorrow.
If you didn’t hear it all, it was teriffying although It’s probably just a case of hard core Tory boy BBC liggers faced with that nothing to lose so go for it thing. It’s the worst BBC attack propaganda in either war or peace imaginable and they did it anyway, all to anihalate Scottish democracy. They were that Project Fear desperate and they may well have made it all up as I never saw Australian jihadi beheadings plot reported again.
Would this mean that Scots couldn`t be tried for treason, if they introduced a 1351 law to use against brits who joined extremists.
http://rt.com/uk/196772-extremist-attack-rowley-isis/
Clootie @ 7:44 pm
And don’t forget those infamous words of wisdon uttered by BT during the last few days before the referendum:
“If you are not sure, just vote NO”
Must have been good for a few percent IMO.
If u haven’t already done so.. tell the disgraceful BBC to shove their licence as far up as it will go!
I have and at least I feel a bit better for it.. would rather watch paint dry than contribute to their lies!!
Here’s a good article regarding Hope over Fear
http://thebutterflyrebellion.scot/2014/10/13/sunday-in-freedom-square/
Steels piece was meant for a far wider audience than just us sweatys.
The BBC just reported that “the NHS is at breaking point”, where was that info a few weeks ago you fuckers.
Jeezus!
Hardly a heart beat from self-governance stolen like candy from a kid, and already the first Christmas commercial.
Shameless bastards.
@ indyref2 I had a look at the list of Independent articles leading up to the referendum and they seem more negative but with some balance too. I don’t buy it because,on the day, I recall it had a negative front page whereas the i was neutral.
But this article from Quebec warning against believing last minute promises is interesting.
https://archive.today/9NneI
More and more I see the same tactics repeated in Quebec, Greece (when Syriza was gaining votes) and Catalonia and Scotland. A tried and successful technique of propaganda, fear, false promises and threats.
Some of the Naws i know welcomed the dirty tricks.
They are utterly convinced Scotland couldn’t survive and elevate this to an axiom that informs their every view-it’s the bedrock on which they exist and nothing will budge them from it.
As far as they’re concerned they are the keepers of the ultimate truth and will even wink conspiratorially amongst themselves when you talk with them as though they’re the ones dealing with the idiots.
The truth hurts guys – its not aimed at YES voters.
Suck it up ‘No’s’ & Proud Scots..but everywhere (heard Lordy Smith recently) but then you were always for Britain and not Scotland anyway.
Away and greet tae yer big hero GB Broon !
Cant believe Greg Moodie has not latched onto the PM Cameron and his control over the dangling rudderless GB.
That is; the Puppet Master and his remote control over the happless clogger Gordy ‘Crash – Ahh Ahhhh !’ Broon.
The Chickens comin’ home tae roost noo Broony.
SquareHaggis
a very good article indeed.
Some of the Naws even have the cheek to describe themselves as Scottish Patriots.
There’s a Britnat twitter account that finishes his tweets off ‘Alba gu bragh’.Usually after saying ‘Scotland will be British forever!!’.
James123
It is about time the Health Service in Scotland reverted back to the name it had before the Tories rebranded it in the 1990’s, from the Scottish Health Service which was part of the Scottish Home and Health Service to NHS Scotland. It would avoid the confusion with the creaking NHS in England.
I did make a mistake during the ref, not keeping an eye on Curtice’s blog. I noticed MM posting there but couldn’t be bothered. He is absolutely the easiest unionist not just to beat, but to let you continue your point which would otherwise make the first posting too long and boring. All he does is totally “misrepresent”, such as “I believe the SNP were almost as popular last general election but still only got 6 MP’s”.
Uh, no. The SNP compared to Lab percent has almost totally reversed since 2010 according to that poll info from Capella / scotpop. Ah well, back to my tea!
BT turned out to be masters of deception. In the end they managed to deceive more people than Yes managed to convert. Lies, fearmongering and threats got through to enough people.
I don’t take that as a failure of the Yes side who played a fairly straight game.
I certainly would not like to offer opinion on what could have been done to counter what was by any standards of political debate – wholesale cheating!
I console myself by believing a large number of people who voted No are already seeing that they were duped. I hope this number grows. But I also see it as the mission of the Yes side to continue to expose and call out the cheats, and to educate and persuade voters. I cannot believe the Unionists can ever play the same cards next time.
No voters must come to realise, perhaps with prompting, that
– promises and vows were lies
– risk about the future lies with the Union
– and, we most certainly aren’t better together!
We can safely attribute many a No vote to the Celtic cringe; generation upon generation told in a thousand different ways we are neither worthy nor skilled enough to run our own country. Why else would Darling and the No camp have chosen a relentless campaign based on fear?
@Grouse Beater –
Now that you mention him, what has happened to Darling? Anyone know where he’s been, what he’s been up to?
Shouldn’t he, McDougall, Murphy, Lamont, Sarwar et al have been doing a nationwide victory tour in an open-topped bus?
Ian
“Now that you mention him, what has happened to Darling? Anyone know where he’s been, what he’s been up to?”
They re-buried him.
I’m still receiving petitions from 38 degrees though asked to be removed from their list. Tonight another petition from them arrived in my e-mails to protest about a threat from Scottish councils to people who had registered to vote in the referendum, to re-register within two weeks or be fined £80. It states that threatening letters have already begun to be sent out. I haven’t a clue about this. It sounds very strange. Does anyone have any information on this?
O/T
Scottish voting intentions for the May 2015 UK general election : Scot goes Pop website.
SNP 42.1% (-0.7)
Labour 24.9% (-2.1)
Conservatives 18.2% (+2.5)
Liberal Democrats 6.4% (-0.6)
UKIP 5.1% (+0.8)
Greens 2.6% (+0.5)
If only
Encouraging yes but .. you can just see it now; late April 2015; BBC & British Establishment roll North ‘We love you – dont leave us ! / The markets will fail if you vote SNP (the sky will fall) !, and it will revert to normal service.
Labour win in Scotland, Tories in at Westminster – please God no!
Wake up Scotland and cast off the fear and gullability once and for all.
@Grouse Beater
They chose a campaign based on fear because it is guaranteed to work. It’s got nothing to do with some ethnic cringe quality. It’s been tested in Quebec, Greece and probably other places as well, though I think it didn’t work so well in South America.
From the Quebec article I mentioned above:
“In voting No then, we have less political power today to initiate economic projects that would benefit our population, and less ability to offer quality services to them. We lost veto powers, funding of healthcare did not keep pace with our demands and our ability to change the situation has diminished. Education funding is embroiled in administrative tugs of war. Our money is spent outside our borders to develop industry while our own industries decline, and we are in constant danger of receiving Canada’s stockpiled nuclear waste without our consent.”
kininvie, I think you have it spot on, the arguement was never strong or convincing enough for many, the vow just allowed the ditherers go go no, guilt free and thinking they were voting I a psitive manner.
Fred blogger, what’s this based on? I know no No that is regretting their decision.
Ian: Now that you mention him, what has happened to Darling?
Gone to ground.
Taken a very long holiday.
Locked the door to smoke waccy baccy.
Organised a lecture tour at £10,000 a gig.
Taken the vow and embraced life in a monastery.
Flown by HM Government to a secret destination free of deadly stalkers.
Joined Osborne and over-privileged pals on a Russian pal’s Puerto Banus berthed yacht. Laughing their arses off at Brown left to carry the can and argue for diddly squat.
All of the above.
Testing.
The Red Tories are losing support now, but this will pick up again as we get closer to the election and Pravda Scotland ramps up its propaganda machine.
It is so important to break the Red Tories forever in Scotland. I was watching an interesting documentary on Winnie Ewing; she told of being a woman and the sole SNP member in WM. Tories ok to her, Libs kindly, but SLAB….
I think back to how they have always been like this, even Clement Attlee was a unionist, which goes against the whole original socialist concept of the founders. At what point was the Labour Party infiltrated to stem off the “socialist threat” to the British Empire? To such an extent that they now do the Tories’ work in Scotland?
I believe they themselves chose to go on that path and were not actively infiltrated.
Re UDI. People, do not forget that Scotland was independent for longer than it was in the union. And we have our own laws, entirely separate from English laws. As I see it, a contract is an agreement between two parties. One party can unilaterally withdraw from the agreement, thereby ending the contract.
So at some point, it would be quite possible for the SG to withdraw from the Treaty of Union 1707. There would not be anarchy, because we already have our own laws in place. If there is 2/3 support among the population and possible a constitutional crisis in WM, there may well be a VERY good case for repealing the Treaty of Union.
Interesting scenario: 40 MPs from the SNP in Westminster, and a landslide UKIP win based on some sort of EVEL agenda. Could this be enough to break up the union? Would Sinn Fein (biggest party in NI) break with tradition and send the necessary MPs to WM to help us?
You know, the problem with some NO voting Scots, especially those who are older, is that it really isn’t in many cases actually their fault.
I grew up in the 70’s, and I and my peers were all told repeatedly during our schooling, and later life, that Scotland could never manage on its own. We were also told the Scottish oil was poor quality, it wouldn’t last, and really it would be economic suicide to base an economy on it. It is/was accepted wisdom, like the sun rising each morning, or night following day. Never forget, in the 70’s and 80’s there was NO google, or internet, the only sources of information was the BBC, ITV and the papers. If you wanted to know what happened in a parliamentary debate, you would need to go to the trouble of reading Hansard (at great cost) in printed form.
To this day, I know some from my generation, who still cannot believe that Scotland would be successful on its own – it shakes their entire world view to the core, to think otherwise. To many, it is ‘hard wired’, it is something that they have generally accepted all their lives. ‘How could the Government have been lying?? ‘They wouldn’t allow that to happen for so long’ would they?? Of course not.’..and so on.
You see, we know the facts, and that Westminster has been lying to Scotland about its wealth and oil since it started flowing, but many simply do not. They believe the BBC really is (no sniggering!) honest and truthful.
It takes time to change that, time to reverse 40 or more years of biased BBC propaganda, and nonsense from Westminster and the red and blue tories of Scotland.
People’s views can however be changed, it just takes a bit of time, so none of us should just give up. Try to understand how something which has been repeatedly stated as fact for a lifetime, that Scotland ‘cannae manage on its own’, can form a very rigid worldview.
If you have believed that for 40 or 50 years, it is very hard to accept that what you have taken as the truth, has been nothing but a well orchestrated pack of lies.
Fortunately, due to the internet, that is changing. Our younger people are better informed, and the older generation, will sadly pass from us, at some stage.
The fact is, we should all behave as though the campaign hasn’t ended, in that it is up to us to slowly demonstrate to such people that Scotland IS a wealthy country, more than capable of running its own affairs, and doing a better job of it than London.
I have stated before many times, and I’ll state it again, things in Scotland are now changing very, very fast, people’s eyes have been opened and there will be no closing of them again. They are rightly angry. I think we will have another opportunity for independence in less than 2 years, and not necessarily via a referendum.
The will of the people will tell us when.
You come across the strangest wee things on Youtube – this one’s an extract from a BBC effort narrated by Sarah Smith, so it’s not exactly tinfoil-hat material.
Alistair Darling was Norman Lamont’s fag? You said it Sarah…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaINdZZC9wU
I must say, its this referendum and the build up to it that has made me respect my fellow Scots again.
Before, for a very long time, i have been convinced that there are just too many spineless, uninformed, brit-zombie people in Scotland for their to ever be change.
Although i definitely will reach out to all in order to make the case for Scottish independence i cannot bring myself to respect people who do nothing and expect things to work out for them.
There are always (for the foreseeable future at least) going to be assholes looking to get into power who shouldnt be there. They cant be blamed, these people are just power hungry assholes and should be recognized for what they are.
The people i blame most is the ignorant vassal-like sheep who have all the hard fought for democratic and legal tools to keep a free and fair society but dont use those tools purely because they are too lazy, apathetic and just…well…pathetic. Or i could just refer to these people as your average ‘no’ voter.
@ Gfaetheblock
Go away you tedious boring person.
Can’t remember them calling us idiots a few weeks before the referendum, I do however seem to remember a lot of pleading and begging.
People seem to respect you when you have power, but treat you like crap when you don’t. I guess were at the don’t stage at the moment.
Capella: It’s got nothing to do with some ethnic cringe quality.
It is difficult to attribute anything else to those who say, I voted No because we are too small a country to run our own affairs, or say, we’re not ready yet for independence.
Some see the likes of Lamont and wonder if we have any brains at all to lead a blind cow out of a field.
It seems to me that if we can get a significant section of the disillutioned Labour defectors onside that would make a lot of difference to the Independence or Devo-Max probabilities.
They were/are quite a large percentage of No’s,and would be able to explain the directives and mechanics of how they were instructed to foil the YES campaign,so we could counter it next time(sooner than some think?)
There has to be lots of them feeling betrayed by events and we need to consider this option.
Unfortunately I came across this-when I still had a bitter feeling in my gut-I’m trying to disperse it ,but it’s still with me today-
I read a guest blog from a Labour guy,Andrew MacFadyen on Better Nation and it looked like he was advocating an ‘Independent Labour Party’in Scotland,renewed with what I percieved to be Yes type structures and I must admit,red mist came over me and I blasted his concept and blog as venomously as I felt at the time.Now I feel I should have handled it differently,and I’m working on not feeling too angry towards No people,especially Labour types-more time needed methinks!but I’m sure I’ll calm down sometime in the next 6 months.lol
Hope there’s something positive in this?
Just watched the independence live tv broadcast day 3 from freedom square with Darren Carnegie. I found it heartbreaking, because someone mentioned how a young man with Asperger’s Syndrome in David Cameron’s constituency had been sanctioned and lost his jobseeker’s allowance. He starved to death, and his body weighed not much more than 5 stone when he was found (by police who had to break down the door).
My son, who is 20, has Asperger’s Syndrome. He was sanctioned recently for missing three appointments at the jobcentre(he overslept once and missed the bus twice – we live in a rural area and the buses only run once an hour). If he didn’t have us to support him, he would starve. He can’t claim jobseeker’s allowance now for another THREE YEARS. He was too ashamed to tell us what had happened for about two months and pretended he was still going along to appointments.
He went to Glasgow University when he was 18 to read Maths and Astronomy, but had a nervous breakdown and had to return home. He is completely dependent on us and suffers from depression. He has applied for hundreds of jobs but has never even been invited for interview.
This is the society we live in, and for which my colleagues at work voted to continue to live in. Is it any wonder I have trouble forgiving them?
@Gouse Beater “It is difficult to attribute anything else to those who say, I voted No because we are too small a country to run our own affairs, or say, we’re not ready yet for independence.”
I posted a link to a short film on propaganda in the previous thread. I would attribute people’s attitudes to brainwashing rather than some mysterious genetic defect. it occurs all over the world:
http://tinyurl.com/k4ae3of
There are plenty of No voters who will be regretting decision, no doubt enough to make a difference if there was a replay tomorrow. These people are just about worthy of our time and effort, however there is a vast element of our society, who are absolute morons and they are not too difficult to identify, so, feel free to abuse and ridicule. I personally, find this very therapeutic.
Rev, don’t give up hope on us. you know the media was relentles and we failed to get our message across to our old people and also English people who’ve moved to Scotland. I think we need to get behind a DevoMax banner and not let this VOW slide into a bit of taxation. if the deal doesnt include oil taxes to balance our books it’s back to the ballot box!
Do not forget that prior to the vote, there were three groups in Scotland: yes, no, don’t know. It is up to us to win over the “don’t know” catagory with rational, sober arguments, based on the truth and backed up by clear evidence.
As for the other no voters…. I find it tremendously hard to be charitable to them… They have brought international shame on Scotland, the richest country never to vote for independence, a country the McCrone Report said back in the 1970s would be the richest in Western Europe with the strongest currency on the whole continent (and, by definition, possibly the world).
I hear the reasons why people voted no and my hair stands on end. It is a compliment to say such people are as thick as mince. Have they had a lobotomy? Why does Scotland have the greatest, most creative and inventive people in the world…. and yet so many numpties who believe we are “too wee” and “genetically preprogrammed” not to make decisions (conveniently forgetting our entire history pre-1707)?
Yes, I am biased, but this whole question to me is like a simple battle between the forces of good and the forces of utter evil (food banks, nuclear weapons, ME wars, child poverty, our oil wealth building SE wealth while we live in poverty, WM politicians laughing at us for being turkeys voting for Christmas — and rightfully laughing).
@ JGedd
Individual Voter Registration was introduced in England and Wales some months ago; it was deferred in Scotland till after the referendum.
This is a change from the annual form that used to be sent to each household, whereon a single person could register all the inhabitants. Now each person has to apply separately.
Having not received the form (I live alone so there was no need for a change) I usually get at this time of year, I e-mailed my local Electoral Registration Office asking what the procedure was. They have not replied. A couple of days ago I registered anyway, via https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote – it is now possible to do this on-line without printing out a form, but a National Insurance number is required. I received an acknowledgment and should be contacted by my ERO.
Prior to the referendum, I read about a commitment that no-one currently registered would be removed from the roll before the 2015 GE – an admission that the new system may take a while to settle. I asked about this in my unanswered e-mail.
Also before the referendum, some councils were comparing their council tax databases with the electoral roll and contacting people where there were discrepancies, giving them a certain amount of time to say which address they should be registered at. That seems fair enough; it could be a large task in some areas and the sooner it is started the better the chance of completing it in time.
It is now the time of year that the main register is compiled (updates are monthly but depend on people volunteering information about change of circumstance) and I think it has always been theoretically compulsory to register. My neighbour, whose post I deal with while he is working abroad, gets several reminders each year before they give up.
Although I am still awaiting confirmation of this in a response to my e-mail, if it is true that letters are being sent out, these are presumably reminders that a new roll is being complied and that it is necessary to re-register. Maybe it isn’t confined to those newly-enrolled for the referendum. Notifying everyone would be better than just hoping they all find out what is required! (I asked about that, too.) Fines are probably nothing new, but councils may be keener to enforce this if their budgets are creaking.
New Figures Show ‘Staggering’ 15% Decline In Incomes Of Britain’s Poorest”
https://archive.today/O7sEX
“But exactly how would Scotland have been made a better country when independent? I never heard anybody explain,” said Gordon Brewer on his radio panel show today.
Jeeezus.
He didn’t understand therefore it never happened.
@ Natasha
How terrible for your son and you to have to deal with those appalling attacks on vulnerable people. It is a war. I wish there was something we could do. Voting YES was certainly the best option to get out of this ghastly neo-liberal nightmare of a society.
But I still wouldn’t blame all NO voters. Many of them are just deluded and misinformed. Of course, the neo-liberals are culpable. Is there no legal remedy?
Capella: I would attribute people’s attitudes to brainwashing rather than some mysterious genetic defect.
If decisions are made by other people somewhere else – the Scottish disease – when we see standards not our own set by London, it is hard to perceive how one can make those decisions if given the chance but without experience of leadership or authority.
Hence, we invite incomers to take charge of our institutions.
@ Grouse Beater
So how did the Irish, Americans, Indians, Maltese etc manage to overcome their awe of foreign rulers?
crazycat
Most of your post regarding the electoral register is correct. It is a new way of ensuring that people who are on the register, actually are who they say.
It has been described as heavy handed however, in that there are possible fines, if people do not reply etc., however, they are at the discretion of councils so far as I know.
You either get a letter saying you are on the register and everything it tickety boo, or you get one saying provide more info.
Not sure it is such a big deal – but I may be wrong. My letter said all was ok, and I did not need to do anything.
As for the petition site 38 degrees, I would avoid them. I have stated that before, and so have others on here. Several years ago, some folks (via Newsnet Scotland I think?) set one up to do something about, i think BBC bias in Scotland, and once they had the required signatures, 38 degrees refused completely to do anything with it, as it was just about Scotland. I am therefore not too surprised they did what they did with handing the petition over to Gordon Brown (nobody really knows why).
I simply do not trust 38 degrees.
@Natasha –
‘This is the society we live in, and for which my colleagues at work voted to continue to live in. Is it any wonder I have trouble forgiving them?’
No, it isn’t, and you shouldn’t feel bad about it. Your son is lucky to have you. I’m lucky to have a son and daughter who are both healthy. But 10, 20 years from now?
There’s no getting away from it – huge numbers of our own kin voted to keep us in this rancid, abusive relationship with an alien government, and did so for entirely selfish reasons: fear is selfish; wilful ignorance is selfish; hiding behind ‘authority’ is selfish.
Please be assured that you’re not the only one having trouble forgiving these people – the one and only thing which could help any process of reconciliation would be for a hefty % of them to get off their fucking arses and DO something about the undeliverable ‘Vow’.
As if…
@ Robert Louis
I also think there is nothing sinister; I was merely explaining that I had tried to get a definitive statement from the ERO (I also asked them for information on progress of the consultation which may prevent campaigners from handing out registration forms or postal vote applications, which is fine in that it stops certain political parties, but would have been a great nuisance for us if we had been unable to assist the people who approached us prior to the referendum – maybe that accounts for the delay in their response).
I un-subscribed from 38 degrees after the Brown hijack and told them I do not trust them. They also have not replied – I’m starting to get paranoid 🙂
main thing that shocked me from referendum was how the whole MSM/Unionist establishment joined together to spout out lie after lie
Capellas: So how did the Irish, Americans, Indians, Maltese etc manage to overcome their awe of foreign rulers?
They do not share the same isle.
English rule truly was a thousand leagues too far. And you forget, they drove incomers from their land. Where do we drive English colonials? From Edinburgh to Broxburn?
JGedd
According to the Scotsman article:
“Voters have been ordered to provide their national insurance details to local authorities within a fortnight for a new registration process, or face £80 penalties, despite them already being on the electoral roll.
The Scotsman has learned 20 per cent of the 4.29 million people who were registered to vote in the referendum are to be sent the notices.
The bulk of those receiving the notices, a number of which have already been sent out, are unemployed people, benefit claimants, students and people who have moved home recently.
The UK government views the fines, which will be enforced at the discretion of council officials, as a way of encouraging people to re-register through the new system”
Yet another draconian measure from our imperial masters for our councils to try and squeeze some more blood from the stone of the poorest.
Police state creeps closer folks. Maybe the end is nigh.
I would be kinder towards no voters, were so much not at stake. All the poverty and injustice could have been wiped out at the stroke of a pen, because the whole YES campaign, from Sheridan and RIC to Business for Scotland, was completely united in saying: we want a fair, all-inclusive society, with NO poverty, NO inequality, NO injustice, NO fear. And we would have done it by using the proceeds from oil and whisky exports, electricity exports, clean-energy exports and from scrapping the horror that is weapons of mass destruction on the Clyde.
Many may have had good reasons for voting no. Fine, it takes all people to make up a nation, and of course there will be diverse opinions. This is a democracy, after all!
But people who voted no simply because they wanted house prices to go up are, in my view, complicit in criminal acts — acts which help evil people like IDS continue to wage war against their own population (why do they hate their own, including even the English, so much?).
I know this is harsh as not every older person voted no
but in 5 years a lot of the no voters will be dead and we will have another 5 years of more on the ball social media type young voters….
Ian: Now that you mention him, what has happened to Darling?
Gone to ground, weeping in his wife’s lap.
Under his bed smoking heavily and brain boozed.
Taken a very long vacation somewhere in Bermuda.
Organised a world lecture tour, ‘How I F-d Scotland,’ £10,000 a gig.
Negotiating with private corporations seeking lucrative bits of the NHS.
Taken the vow – no, not that one! – to embrace life in a Greek monastery.
On a large luxury yacht berthed in Puerto Banus with Osborne and his fat Russian pals, hookers serving drinks, all laughing their heads off at Hapless Gordon left to carry the can, arguing uselessly for diddly squat.
The Catalans don’t f@(< about, check this out for a geme o dazzies
http://tinyurl.com/kggwcqw
@ Grouse beater
From Boulder to Birmingham!
All you Good People accessing this site have to realise we are given our Nation’s Hero’s ie POLITICIAN’S over all the generations past. The “Dominant Minority” have passed through all the Millenia since History has been “recorded”. I would encourage some ,if not all of you, to read Professor Caroll Quigley’s books” TRAGEDY AND HOPE “and “THE ANGLO AMERICAN ESTABLISHMENT” to have an insight into how this Dominant Minority have connived, funded, and created the “”Establishment”” we all endure. They are Very, Very, Powerful, in that ,they control the BANKING SYSTEM, control All the Major Corporations and importantly the so called MAIN STREAM MEDIA, PLUS all Useful Politicans. They are totally dominant within the “ROYAL INSTITUTE OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS” now called” CHATHAM HOUSE” and its offspring The” COUNCIL OF FOREIGN RELATIONS” within the U.S.A. and all the Major Western Countries, which are all in turn infested from “selected people” from all the Elite Universities. These people have been “educated ” in these Elite Universities and Selected Institutions are in turn selected and promoted and put in place across the Goverment of the “”UK”” as has sometimes been discussed on this site. An interesting read from “TRAGEDY AND HOPE ” shows how in the U.S.A once the Banking Elite commenced running and controlling the country,around the early 19th Century, it was enabled and done through buying up all the many Independant News Papers and reducing them to only about 20 across the U.S.A. to propagate propaganda and manipulate Public Opinion (WHATS NEW IF IT WORKS THEN WHY NOT NOW!!). The same techniqes always work on any population and are always used. We have to wake up and fight back Scotland. What a chance we have been given. Lets start with getting rid of the S.L.AB. In May 2015. Gordon Brown, God Bless him in Parliament has now created the “CRACK ” lets open it and walk through?
@ SquareHaggis
Great clip. Inspiring. The Catalans don’t seem cowed. Maybe we should crowd fund a trip out there for Tommy Sheridan to give a message from Scotland?
Capella: From Boulder to Birmingham!
Aye. Let it be so.
Driven from the great Rock at the mouth of Glencoe to the sentinel Rock of Gibraltar where they will be at one with the Barbary apes.
Great clip of the Catalans, wonder if we can do something similar at the Hydro “F**k Off, Westminster”
It’s just simple economics. We have a super rich elite and no council housing built for a generation. Who had the opportunity to build a county fit for working people, the majority? Labour ruled by a war mongering debt crazed faux Tory or Tories, like Bliar, Crash and the Flipper and the mased ranks of roughens like JimMurphy.
In Scotland last month the I’m alright jacks won but it’s not over because its never over.
@Chitterinlicht
“Does anyone know any no voters that are upset? Any chance getting them on here to speak up and bring others on board ?”
I met a No voter today who I’d always assumed was a Yes until she said straight out she’d voted No.
She’s probably the most intelligent and good-hearted person I know too, so it was actually kind of a shock to me that she didn’t seem too bothered at having voted to throw away her country’s future.
I wonder how many people like that are out there and still content in their decision?
Intelligent people don’t have the luxury of hiding behind an ignorance of the facts or the inability to research them though.
Days like this I believe there’s no way out of this mess…
@Capella,
Yes, it’s humbling to see a people who really want thier Independence.
We are just as great a people – we only need to believe, that’s all.
If they put a gig like this on in Scotland tomorrow I’d be there like a rocket.
@Valerie,
A few rows of hairy pink Scottish a5ses oughtta purvey your message just nicely 😉
A.N.Surgent,
“Getting less inclined to watch Max Keiser.He always has a wee dig about how stupid,daft and other less gentle terms aimed at Scots, giving up their chance to dump the london elite.”
But that is the truth and nothing but the truth, isn’t it?
We are the laughing stock of the world, at least 55% of us.
Capella & Ian Brotherhood
Thank you for your kind messages. My son tried appealing the decision with the help of the Scottish Association for Mental Health (a brilliant organisation which I can’t praise highly enough)but apparently as he “only” has Asperger’s rather than full-blown autism, that doesn’t count as being “disabled enough” for them to make exceptions. You really couldn’t make it up, could you?
What matters in the end is that we don’t give up; and when you think about it, we really are very lucky – we have all the brightest, funniest, most caring and most committed people on our side. Our movement is full of joy and hope; their hearts are just full of fear and misery. We will get there in the end!
Andy-B,
“So how do we get from 45% to 51% without offending anyone?”
Convince many more working class Labour voters that they will be better off under independence.
That is our only hope. The elderly and middle class who voted No will not change their minds in 2017 (or ever).
OK folks, here it is. 59 MPs, and how they voted on devolution since 2010. I might’ve finally lost my mind. The idea that Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling of all people dare to proclaim their supposed enthusiasm for devolution absolutely sickens me knowing what I know now. How in the hell did anyone believe these people?
http://wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/the-devo-files/
Of course, I’ve also found out a great deal more interesting things in my investigations, which I’ll discuss in future installments of… The Devo Files!
@9.53pm – Alan,
Very interesting and good post.
And to that i will add 2 more factors which almost certainly made a difference.
A lot of people don’t like it when this subject is brought up, but if we don’t face up to and do something about it then we’re not very likely to make progress any time soon.
(1)-Pre referendum we had the head of the Orange Order calling for a no vote, and in support of that rallying call there was a large parade through the streets of Edinburgh. In the previous 2 years, in the build up to the referendum, they also organised several other large parades through places such as Stirling. Every one of these sectarian parades went unchallenged and without incident. Our politicians, local councils and police force all gave these sectarian parades the green light.
(2)-Pre referendum and, as far as i know, the leader of Scotland’s Catholics called for a ‘no’ vote – if it wasn’t him it was the Pope (it may even have been both). Add to this that complete and utter ersewipe, George Galloway, attempting to scare the utter crap out of Catholics with warnings about voting Yes.
Now, no matter what your beliefs are – i think i’m an Atheist, btw 🙂 – there can be no argument against the fact that all these people mentioned above are VERY influential people. Hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, hang on their every last word. We believers in Scottish Independence can go on preaching the facts until we turn purple but as soon as these “religious” leaders start “preaching”, we might as well pack up. Something has to be done about it – but what – I don’t know!
Taranaich what I find repugnant is the statue of Donald Dewar in Glasgow, who so believed in Scotland that the day before our parliament opened he gave away ? What 6000 miles of our water so England could get some of our oil. grrrr
@ Grouse Beater (9.50) –
re What’s happened to Darling?
All of the scenarios you mention might appear outlandish, (or even, dare I say it, ‘satirical’?) to anyone living outside Scotland.
Here, in Scotland, each and every one of them is more plausible than the idea of a relaxed, non-twitching Darling, sitting in a pub talking to normal Scots – that particular vignette will never, ever happen.
Scot Finlayson – why? I am just saying that I see no evidence that no are moving to yes, and saying so is somewhere between hope and delusion.
I believe that we should be working to find the best way to make scotland better, is that what you are bored by?
Clootie,
“The Vow probably hit 10%. That 10% accepted the promise hyped by the BBC of “DevoMax”.”
I don’t think it did.
What hit the crucial 10% (poor working class Labour voters) was the scaring to death by the likes of Asda, Iceland and above all the BBC.
They didn’t give a damn about the vow – they were the victims of the relentless Project Fear.
RIC, Tommy Sheridan etc did a great job, but unfortunately they fell short and were no match to the might of the British establishment.
@Gfaetheblock
I think that was supposed to go on the current main thread.
Also, I’d have to agree with you, from my experiences of No voters around here. I’ve yet to meet one who says anything about regretting their decision.
All the ones I’ve met so far simply don’t care and are quite happy with what they’ve done.
That whole “45” thing is really starting to grow on me now…
Taranaich
a great piece of work, bookmarked for reference, thank you.
@Gfaetheblock
Ignore that first bit. Had a tab with the off-topic thread open too and got them mixed up.
Heading off to sleep now since the caffeine obviously isn’t working any more…
Square Haggis
Watching that makes me wish I was Catalan. I wonder if they have any ‘Proud Catalan buts’
O/T In the absence of any current activity from that Unionist stalwart, MP James Murphy, here is something to help keep him in your thoughts:
http://michaelgreenwell.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/the-peoples-party-again/
Also, I don’t do Facebook or Twitter: just found out that there is a big rally tomorrow in Perth at St. Matthew’s church hall,Tay Street, from 1-4pm.Pete Wishart, RIC, WFI and Greens. This is the same venue as the recent successful WFI gig.
Stoker writes of the Orange Order marches, “Every one of these sectarian parades went unchallenged and without incident. Our politicians, local councils and police force all gave these sectarian parades the green light.”
Actually, Better Together dissociated itself from these marches before they happened.
Is Stoker saying that these marches, which, as he acknowledges, passed off ‘without incident’, should have been banned?
@Taranaich –
I’ve only spent five, six minutes on it, but hey, mister, it’s got to be a candidate for inclusion in the WOS Reference section.
This is surely a template for the Wee Red Book.
(The photies alone are priceless – Carmichael? Oh, FFS, pass me a bucket…)
http://wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/the-devo-files/
Ian: Osborne: Here, in Scotland, each and every one of them is … plausible
You bet.
@crazycat @Graeme Doig @Robert Louis
Thanks for the information. The way that 38 degrees presented it made it sound sinister.
@Natasha
I have every sympathy with you. One of my sons has mild Asperger’s and went to university. However, not long into his course, he began to have epileptic seizures. ( There is a higher incidence of this in those on the autistic spectrum than in the ordinary population.) Before they were able to bring this under control with medication, he had several seizures particularly at stressful times, like before and even during exams. He told me that the seizures seemed to wipe his memory at these times so of course, his studies suffered. He even dropped out of university for a period of time and we didn’t know about it.
He did in the end manage to get a degree, though given the circumstances, not quite what we had hoped. He now has a job but despite the fact that, having Asperger’s, he is supremely focused on the job in hand, calculates rapidly and (now the epilepsy is under control) has acute memory recall, he is aware that subtle social interactions escape him.
Our society lacks empathy and this has been encouraged by the media which directs the cult of individualism and worship of wealth. There is a terrible disconnection between people as if society itself had become too large for the ordinary psyche to cope with. In this emotional void the media has inculcated a cynical detachment and a shallow group mentality which needs to target the ‘other’. I don’t watch TV but I’m aware of the squalid programming which runs on day-time BBC and other channels which are about monstering the disadvantaged.
Like you Natasha, I find it difficult to come to terms with that part of society which is so uncaring. I met enough of them when out canvassing.
Will Podmore hope you are not going to pretend that Jim Murphy was not associating with the OO? He defended them at one point on TV, saying that perhaps the Yes campaign should have kept their mouth shut about them.
And lets not mention George Square, eh?
The latest instalment from Mr Moodie.
“The House of Evel by Greg Moodie”
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/10/17/the-house-of-evel-by-greg-moodie/
It’s Friday Night & the Pod is back with his large rotary manipulation device, usual rules apply when dealing with those under bridge dwelling life forms.
Lets try and get some weight behind this extremely important issue. We all know what a major part the BBC played in leading the No campaigns Project Fear. It is extremely important to Scotland and her future well-being that we either get full control of broadcasting or we see the end of the BBC in Scotland.
C’mon, Wingers. If you haven’t already done so – please sign:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/574/697/105/put-scotland-in-control-of-scottish-broadcasting/
Kenny writes, “One party can unilaterally withdraw from the agreement ..” Yes, you were offered the chance to choose to do so. But by 55/45 you chose not to. Separatists believe that Scotland is a nation. If it was, it would have voted Yes. As, for example, if Namibia in the 1970s had been allowed a choice, it would have voted overwhelmingly for independence. Or as the Vietnamese would have voted 80/20 in 1956 for independence, if the USA had allowed the promised election.
But in September you had the chance to prove that you were indeed a nation, but you didn’t, so you aren’t. Now we all have to work together in our united country, to rebuild it, and to win our independence from the undemocratic, capitalist the EU.
@Taranaich
Good God, what a tremendous piece of work, well done!
I like the Carmichael one: “Did not vote on devolving elements of the Crown Estate and accountability of the Crown Estate” (2011) considering his promises to the people of Shetland and Orkney to devolve 80% to them (probably if they voted NO!). Only excuse would be if he was paired at the time.
J Gedd 11.12pm
Thank you so much for your kind comments. I’m really glad to hear your son got his degree and now has a job; it gives me hope for my son.
Hey, Plod, did you bother to read my post at 9.09pm? How can you defend staying part of a system which ensures that vulnerable people starve to death in one of the richest countries in the world? And don’t you DARE tell me it would be any different under New Labour – you know as well as I do that that is a massive lie. The fact is that all those Labour voters who moved to Yes did so for two reasons:
1) they realised that the just society they longed for could NEVER be achieved as part of this disgraceful so-called union
2)they realised that the just society they longed for could NEVER be achieved under New Labour.
Don’t kid yourself that they’ll come running back to SLAB in the general election – a sea change has happened and there is nothing you can do about it. You helped to betray your country and your fellow human beings and I hope you rot in hell.
Bob Sinclair: usual rules apply when dealing with those dwelling under-bridge life forms.
Chuckle.
Sub-species, pond life.
Actually, “fellow” human beings was an insult to the rest of us.
Gfaetheblock,
Well at least one conversion has appeared below the line on a previous thread, maybe you should have a look and see his post. If there is one, there are others, I have no doubt of this; especially in light of what has happened since (from the perspective of any No voter who trusted the vow, that is). I don’t know any one personally, who regrets thier vote (I only know 2 people that voted No) but I do have friends who know other No voters that are having regrets. Anecdotal is giving way to evidential.
JGedd: I met enough of them when out canvassing.
I am of the opinion voting should be mandatory, fined if you fail, the only excuse in hospital or dead. But some folk should be sanctioned if they don’t care a fig.
6,000 square miles, yup. Looking forward to Labour’s proposals for a Gordon Brown statue when he shambles off this mortal coil.
Oh, it’s just beginning, fred!
Thanks very much, Ian! I do think it’s stuff like this The People Need To Know. If there’s a silver lining following the No vote, it’s that we’ll still be in a position to change the political landscape of Scotland. Thinking about having to work with Brown and Curran and Murphy in an independent Scotland gives me a migraine: perhaps it’s for the best that we have a chance to get rid of these fools, and get more than 50%+1 on side.
Thanks! I didn’t know about the Carmichael Shetland promise, though it doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. I have a feeling Shetland & Orkney were promised a LOT of things by Teddy Boy.
Next stage is to find statements & such by said MPs and the relation to their voting record.
@Will Podmore –
Will you please pod less?
Rock Andy-B,
“So how do we get from 45% to 51% without offending anyone?”
Learn from our mistakes – it was obvious to me as I canvassed doors in the closing weeks of the referendum that we had not found the way to convince the bulk of pensioners – the answer is not to fume and curse at the 55% – but to figure out what would work better the next time. 6 out of 55 is not hard – but can be made more difficult if we are seen as offensive and lose some of the 45%
Clootie,
What hit the crucial 10% (poor working class Labour voters) was the scaring to death by the likes of Asda, Iceland and above all the BBC.
True – but the vow was a cover too – Question is – how to counter this the next time? Or to disarm them before they are rolled out the next time? Apart from writing to the BBC to say why they are not getting my licence. I have already been in to see my local ASDA manager with my wife and a few of her friends and explained why we were shopping in Tesco and LIDL from now on – we dont have an Iceland ANY OTHER IDEAS?
And Rock – pensioners CAN be brought around given the right approach – we only need to discover what that approach is. If we believe in a political project, it is up to us to find a way to sell it – not curse elderly folk who dont’t get it
Well said Valerie @11.12pm
Anyone seen anything about this on the bbc?
Ordinary citizens occupying Parlt Sq for 9 days to protest against our shell of a democracy
http://occupydemocracy.org.uk/
For a chuckle –
If you go to the Scottish Labour twitter page, scroll down about halfway down the page to a tweet by Duncan McNeil Oct 13, saying:
“Big no in SNP heartland leaves Salmond stranded at Holyrood”
Is he being sarcastic? Click on the link…
Tomorrow’s front page for The Times;
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/523229618770149376
Grouse Beater
I don’t have a problem with compulsory voting but I think there is something sinister in fineing folk for not handing over information for a voting system which is not compulsory.
@Marcia –
Ha!
Brilliant!
“And finally, Jack McConnell says Labour has lost its way in Scotland, and it’s got fuck all to do with him…”
Apparently there was 97% of voters registered to vote but only 84% eventually did. Would those newly registered then have had second thoughts on voting, maybe after being told they would be chased for Poll Tax or some other threat? Or John Reid’s advice ‘If you don’t know, don’t vote’?
Or is the difference perhaps those who have always been registered to vote, but never do? Why?
Is there any way to find out where those folk are, why they didn’t vote and get them onboard and voting? ( for SNP and indy parties, obvs). 🙂
Hmmm, wonder what Lord McConnells’ angle is here, because it is a very withering attack on Labour, and saying Nicola presents an even bigger challenge to them….
Cadogan Enright
There now has to be an engagement with those who voted NO. The debunking of all the scare stories that we had over the past two year to alleviate all their fears would help. The actions of the Tory led government will no doubt help to see that many of their fears were in fact baseless.
This where the grassroots movement would be effective, going door to door and speaking to the No’s now that the referendum is out of the way and they don’t have any immediate fear. Assuring them that their fears were groundless might help to win them over. Reminding voters of the role that Labour played in the referendum in the run to the General Election might sway votes away from them.
Don’t bother feeding the troll who comes on here. If you analyse its posts, you will see it is not even a citizen of our bonnie land as is clearly talking about Scotland as a foreign country. Let’s be constructive and put our energy to better use, that’s the YES way!
Well Mr Podmore,
What bit do you want to rebuild?
Who do you want to unite with ?
You’ve got the land, the licenses, the oil money, the state broadcaster, every newspaper bar one , the CBI and pretty much every establishment body on your side so what do you need the Yes voters for?
Could it be to come out of Europe your going to have to persuade most ( but not all) of those 45%?
I’ll tell you what , I was 18 when Margaret Thatcher came into power and promised everyone they could buy their council house and buy shares in Sid or whoever and the British public fell over themselves to get their hands on them well seems her policies live on .
Until enough folk find out that’ when the shit hits the fan and there’s no one around caring enough to hold their hand when their pension turns out to be worth shit or when they’re sitting , unable to walk or look after themselves and not one solitary person cares because the housing market bubble has just burst or Europe decides that really Stuttgart or Berlin really would be a better option for the money markets you can stay with your cronies on the No side
. Me , I’ve got a better Scotland to work on and it doesn’t involve one Tory, Labour , Libdem or Ukippers , Scotland’s pretty united from where I’m sitting.
Cadogan Enright,
“And Rock – pensioners CAN be brought around given the right approach – we only need to discover what that approach is. If we believe in a political project, it is up to us to find a way to sell it – not curse elderly folk who dont’t get it”
Yes, there is an approach. Remove free care and travel passes. Remove any freebies they get and transfer them to the more deserving poor who did vote Yes. They will see the error of their ways then.
I am totally convinced that the 70% elderly who voted No are stubborn, selfish British nationalists who will never vote for independence.
Due to their age, haven’t they seen and experienced what has been done to Scotland during the last 35 years? Haven’t they experienced mass emigration from Scotland? Did they have no sympathy for the hundreds of thousands living in poverty today, thanks to the union?
Neither are they too stupid, nor are they easily frightened, apart from the really weak and old.
They knowingly made a selfish decision so that they would not have to face any change in their lives and be able to remain proud of the British Empire to their death.
But if you manage to figure out a way to convince them, let me know.
@Will Podmore
How would you feel if one of your two grandsons was found starved to death weighing just over five stone because he had Asperger’s Syndrome and didn’t know what to do after losing his benefits? That’s the present reality in the UK as a result of successive Westminster administrations, both Tory and Labour, and New Labour has no plans to change anything if they get into power. Their only strategy is to out-Tory the Tories.
Glad to see you think this is acceptable. You know NOTHING about Scotland or its people. Stay out of our affairs.
@ taranaich – great record you’ve put together – well done indeed.Should be sent round as an example to other nationalist parties e.g plaid cymru, sinn fein and the irsp in NI. I’m sure they would find the format helpful for setting up their own dossiers
@natasha and others – don’t despair about your children with hidden disabilities – they will pull through and find their path in life.
My son has epilepsy and suffered attacks with the stress of university exams (even though his illness was controlled with medication). His last attack was in june of this year and he said his memory was shot to pieces for a week or 10 days afterwards.
Just allow them time to get over the setbacks and help them focus on going forward towards achieving their goals, whether academic or otherwise
@ Graeme Doig
I’m having trouble finding an up-to-date link (David Icke doesn’t count!) but I think that it is compulsory to be on the electoral roll, even though voting itself is not mandatory.
I did find this : https://www.gov.uk/yourvotematters?gclid=CPuP9b_ltMECFUnlwgodgB8AuA
which confirms that local councils in Scotland will be sending out letters this month and next, to tell people whether they have been moved automatically to the new system, or whether some details do not match other government records, or are missing.
There’s also this : https://www.gov.uk/government/news/electoral-registration-in-scotland-updated-for-the-21st-century
about raising public awareness of the new system.
Neither of these links mentions compulsion to register, and I am not clear what happens to people who are still not registered at all, so won’t get a letter. Presumably the government hopes the public awareness campaign will reach them. Or maybe an entry in the records they are cross-checking with will trigger a letter.
I’m slightly more hopeful than I was a few days ago that all the new voters will still be on the roll; the next task will be persuading them it’s still worth turning out to vote!
TJenny
I think the turnout was a little bit higher than 84% ofwhat the official figures suggest it to be. The reason being that the electoral register in places such as Dundee and Glasgow are way out due to many factors. Years ago there were an army of canvassers who collected the data by visiting all the premises until they obtained all the voters details. Now it is done my letters to the households instead of the personal visits by the council.
I have seen in the recent referendum, children registered by their thick parents who did not read the form correctly, someone who has been deceased for 12 years, students who left 3 or 4 years ago still on the register, same person registered at two different flats in the same building. There are more examples which skew the turnout figures which I could go on about but I do wish they would bring back the canvassers.
Too wee, too poor and too stupid they said.
We disproved the first two over the campaign but unfortuately the third was beyond our educational efforts. That’s where all our efforts should now be directed.
Last weekend I encountered friends who had been activists but had not been following Wings although they had heard of the ‘mythical’ Wee Blue Book! I’ve supplied them links to Wings and others and I’ll show them the last copy of the WBB that I have when I meet them again in a couple of weeks. (I gave it to a girl on Byres Road to help convince her old auntie and she returned it next day, job done). We need to make sure our activists are well up to the mark so they can pass on the facts to the malleable members of the public.
Fortunately the ‘Vow’ has a timetable of short term objectives which will allow us to keep everyone focused on the big picture.
Keep the Faith
@Will Podmore –
The proverbial’s in your court pal…
I’ve been doing some research on our friend Podmore. He isn’t Scottish, he doesn’t live in Scotland and he knows nothing about Scotland. He just thinks he has a right to tell us what to do. And every time he comes on here I will be reminding him that he actively supports a situation in which mentally disabled people starve to death in pain, fear and lonely desperation in one of the richest countries in the world in 2014. Don’t think I won’t do it, Podmore, because I WILL – EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Matt cartoon
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/
@Natasha –
Please share what you know, and save us all the bother of having to deal with ‘it’ – does ‘it’, as far as you know, have other online names?
Will Podmore
I’m still waiting for a reply to my question about how you would feel if it were one of your grandsons who starved to death. Gone awfully quiet, suddenly, haven’t you? Not so cocky when you have to answer a real question about real people. Just like all bullies – a coward at heart.
The Matt cartoon archived,
https://archive.today/tBCDR
T Jenny @ 12.01:
Baron Reid’s advice was actually ‘ If you don’t know, vote NO’. Surely one of the worst examples of negativity from the intensely negative, unambitious and uninspired NO campaign.
Ian Brotherhood @12.23am
Simple – just look for him on facebook. Chief librarian at the British School of Osteopathy, lives in Wansted, studied at University of Essex, facebook page crammed full of Better Together crap. Hypocrite, liar, toerag. And before he tries to have a go about Stu living in Bath, the difference is that Stu grew up in Scotland and is intelligent and informed. This guy is just a self-satisfied prick – oh, and a coward. Still no reply to my question as far as I can see.
@Marcia 12.25am
How come you always have the best links? 🙂
There are so many people living in England that appear to spend large chunks of their time on FB, blogs and newsthreads, slagging off the people of Scotland, slagging off the SNP, or Alex, or Nicola – when none of these people have any impact on their lives!
I’m damn sure if the WM govt. wasn’t impacting on my life, I wouldn’t be on here or anywhere else! Why aren’t these people directing their ire at Westminister if they are unhappy, or do they just hate the Scots?
@ Ian, and Natasha
http://www.amazon.co.uk/EU-Britain-Trade-Union-View/dp/0954211251/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413588856&sr=1-3
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Will-Podmore/e/B001KHBIOE/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1
I suspect this is him – the topics fit with comments on here.
Crazycat
I think many of the 120000 who came out of the woodwork to register for the referendum may not wish for all their details to be tied into the govt system for various reasons.
That the are being threatened with fines if they don’t comply doesn’t sit right with of in a system which does not demand compulsory voting.
@Natasha –
I don’t ‘do’ Facebook, but have no reason to doubt your research.
In any event, you appear to have put him to the sword.
If only all the trolls were so easy!
More power to ye.
Nice work Natasha
What a stunted piece of shite wp is.
@ Graeme Doig
I’m sure you’re right about some of them, though I was really surprised when I was showing the registration forms to people who came into our shop to fill them in, and explaining about the edited version of the register and the opt-out. I assumed they would all want to opt out, but a lot of them didn’t.
Being sent junk mail isn’t the same as having the government poking its nose in, of course, but it was still not what I had expected.
@crazycat (12.39) –
Cheers.
I did click, and read…hmmm…
I suspect we won’t see that person back here, unless s/he would like to offer an apology to Natasha.
Ian @ 12.23am,
It goes by the name “Will” over on newsnet.
It’s a Troll and a coward – Natasha’s got it pegged.
Well done, Natasha.
The Arch Traitor Niall Ferguson and establishment likspittle has just won an award in Mexico called the` Freedom Award`
His quote “Freedom is not loved as it should be”
He spent the whole of the run up to the referendum saying Scotland would not be able to handle its own Freedom.
http://www.itbusinessnet.com/article/Ricardo-B-Salinas-Presents-Una-Vida-Por-La-Libertad-Freedom-Award-to-Niall-Ferguson-3552418
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUQTvyOv1IcIsdp9LynACLpxpeSFx6_13gCGkiJNEJR-I5HP1Nig
🙁
Natasha @9.09pm
Your son should be claiming and receiving Employment Support Allowance and DLA. I do hope he is not left witout any money with you having to support him. Are you aware if National Autistic society and any carers organisations in yor area? In Edinburgh we have No6 One Stop Shop a suppor service run by Autism Initiatives, a national charity working for people with Autism.
Your son must have a social work assessment to access support and services available I hope there ae some. The Scottish government do have an autism strategy, should be lots of info online.
No one with Aspergers should be subjected to having to deal wiht the dwp and on job seekers allowance. It is horrific for them, I hope your son gets some support, he is entitled to it.
Firstly, Taranaich, fantastic work. I thought your blog post had pushed my anger levels to the peak, but no, I was wrong. The ATOS story has pushed me over the edge.
I am not angry with No voters. I’m a bit (or in some cases a lot) peeved, like everyone else, but not willing to destroy friendships. Not that that will stop me pushing for independence.
Next step for me: show everyone that Westminster is evil, and that we need rid of them. Front door, back door, side door, who cares.
Related somewhat to the article, I recently explained to a No voter I know how disappointed and hurt i felt about those who voted No in indyref1. He was genuinely surprised. In that moment, I could tell that he felt at once ashamed and stupid and realised he had been duped into voting No. What i learned was the power of explaining to No voters how we honestly feel about the result. To be honest i wanted to throttle him, but after just opening up, looking him in the eye and telling him how I honestly felt, I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t vote No a second time. There’s plenty of talk here about how do we connect with No voters for indyref2 – well, here’s one example of what worked, and i recommend you try it with No voters that you know.
How far Scotland has come. One election and two years later a Referendum. Another election (2015) and the Unionists politicians will be gone from Scotland. Then on to a better future. Things have changed dramatically in such a short time. Might have lost a battle but will win the war.
Scotland will get control of the welfare system and help the most vulnerable, The Unionist Politicans will be gone. Westminster are a bunch of crooks.
“The Arch Traitor Niall Ferguson and establishment likspittle has just won an award in Mexico called the` Freedom Award`
His quote “Freedom is not loved as it should be”
He spent the whole of the run up to the referendum saying Scotland would not be able to handle its own Freedom.”
Niall Ferguson also said he would renounce his not Scottish but British citizenship in the Sunday Times the weekend before 18th Sept if we voted Yes, he loves freedom thst much. Scotland has produced some amazing arseholes. Tory, ConDem, Labour you name it, there are some bizarre UKOK cringers out there that don’t make any sense whatsoever. Who knows what the Mexican award bearers thought they were dealing with.
Ferguson – Who knows what the Mexican award bearers thought they were dealing with.
He’s probably trying to convince Mexicans they never really owned Texas, and anyhow, they brought the violent territorial wars upon themselves.
Graeme Doig: I don’t have a problem with compulsory voting but I think there is something sinister in fining folk for not handing over information for a voting system which is not compulsory.
Excellent point.
Some Aberdeen councillors (and others) have declared war on Yes voters – they see an SNP supporter under every thistle.
Natasha has found out that the troll is “Chief librarian at the British School of Osteopathy”. Chief librarian! He attacked one of my posts on another thread, but I did not even bother responding, because the fact of the matter was that he had completely misunderstood what I wrote 100% and I was so ashamed of such a person’s stunted powers of comprehension of the English language! He writes about trade unions? I thought it was a UKIP loon who had never even graduated from high school!
More power to your keyboard, Natasha!
Required reading/watching for those who curse the NO voters.
Noam Chomsky Manufacturing consent.
Square haggis – thanks for that, hair standing on end!
Taranaich – brilliant , I look forward to the next episode.
Ian B , I needed someone to give me permission to be pissed off with NO voters of my acquaint ,thanks.
I am still torn ‘twixt grief and rage.
smiling vulture
telegraph Sept 16th
Alistair Darling and Douglas Alexander said the pledge was cast-iron and could be implemented in a much speedier and less risky manner than separating from the United Kingdom.
The three UK party leaders made the vow in a signed letter which appears on the front page of the Daily Record newspaper, which is popular in Scotland’s traditional Labour heartlands. Both sides think they will decide the result.
Alan Cochrane Oct 17th
“vow” dreamed up by the Daily Record newspaper and signed by the leaders of the three Westminster Unionist leaders.
Is there any possibility at all that the Government held back on this information until after the referendum?
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/oct/13/bp-north-sea-oil-field-shetland-islands
Ian Brotherhood says
“(The photies alone are priceless – Carmichael? Oh, FFS, pass me a bucket…)”
That was Munguin,
how the hell Tris managed to get those Muppets to pose with him is a mystery but he ho funny all the same, gaun yersel Tris. 🙂
Oh and let me add my congratulations Taranaich that’s quite a forensic piece of work there and needs high levels of public exposure!
My favourite pic is the one with the sun shining out of Duggies arse,:)
I’m sure he sets up those pictures himself,
like the other one which appeared to show a nearby bridge in the background as a halo around his head.
Mark Steel kind hits the nail on the head, but cowardice ranks above idiocy as to why Scotland voted No.
Sadly although Social Media exposes politcal folly at every step, Scots folk will not change their voting pattern in 2015 despite increased party memberships. The nation has shown the world what we are made of and this will not change by May 2015.
Who got that BP Clair field £10bn spend? Norway, 5 million people not part of something bigger safer stronger teamGB http://www.kvaerner.com
Go ahead, invest another £10bn in any country except the Scotland region, they’re too small too poor too stupid up there and 55% want to keep it that way.
bookie from hell 8:14am
BornOptimist 8:34am
Both your comments are clear evidence that Mark Steels’s description regarding some of our fellow citizens is accurate.
The 55% were lied to about the oil, despite the Clair field outrage of sending people home until aftet the refeendum being raised- in fact it was even mentioned on one of the BBC debates.
The Vow- Alan Cochrane- the man that was on a bonus if he helped secure a NO vote
http://www.thedrum.com/news/2014/09/17/scottish-daily-telegraph-editor-alan-cochrane-denies-being-line-20000-bonus-if-no
It is going to be hard work getting our independence when faced with this mountain of bile.
Need some positive vibes, so going to the 45 rally in Perth today.
Taranaich 10.43pm
Just got around to reading your list of ‘shame’. Excellent work Mr T.
Great that you’ve included info on the SNP MP’s as way of contrast.
@BornOptimist
Didn’t that story run in 2011?
Anyone fancy a wee chat wi oor Wullie?
https://www.facebook.com/will.podmore
Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael said SNP ministers must accept the “No” vote, instead of getting on the “betrayal bandwagon”.
I must strongly disagree with you there Alistair.
I hope these NO voters do feel as if they have betrayed Scotland. I do hope that they are on some kind of guilt trip. I do hope that they now realise that Scotland is about to get shafted and that NO voters played a major part in that happening.
But you have to ask, why is Alistair Carmicheal getting in early with this word “betrayal”.
Does he already know that Scotland has just took part in one of the biggest con tricks in world politics.
No wonder commentators like Max Keiser of RT TV, can’t stop laughing at us.
Oh and I meant to add,
BE POLITE,
we don’t want the good people of Wanstead in North East London to think we’re all heathens up here do we? 🙂
Anyone with any details of rally in Perth today.
Seems to me the unionists are rattled, as there is no real outcry about another referendum, except from them carping on! The only ones who mention independence as a word are the SNP, and that is party policy, so tough.
BornOptimist
The good thing about all these stories appearing regarding oil finds, shipbuilding orders on the Clyde etc… is that they cannot be used again in “Project Fear mark II”.
Ian wood can’t suddenly appear and tell us there is no oil, Joanne Lamont can’t tell us we will loss the Royal Navy shipbuilding order, because the contracts will have been signed.
So, the more of these type of stories that are coming out, the more it actually works in our favour, because it is all the less ammunition the enemy has for future wars.
“Every cloud…”
@Andy-B says: 17 October, 2014 at 5:56 pm:
“So how do we get from 45% to 51% without offending anyone?”
I think many of the older members of the independence movement are still standing far too close to, in fact they are one of, the trees. We need to stand further back to be able to see the extent of the wood.
So, now that your out from among the other trees, please turn round and have a look at the wood. That wee copse you joined all those years ago has grown from a few trees. It is now a vast forest with 82,017 full grown trees and an undergrowth that is almost impenetrable. It’s going to be almost impossible to chop down and even harder to control from growing bigger.
The task now is to identify what has caused that growth. Notice it is not a steady growth but an accelerated growth showing little signs of returning to a steady pace. What is causing the growth is the realisation that Westminster is treating Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland and most large areas of England lying outside the M25 ring road as a feed stock for, not just London but, the Financial sector of the city of London.
They have always done this but the effect grew greatly by Westminster changing the basic set-up of what began as a bipartite Union of Kingdoms, into a quadratic union of countries but reserved for itself the position of an unelected de facto parliament of England. This in turn is dominated by the square mile, City of London, financial sector. In turn dominated by the, “Bullingdon Boys”, who lead all the Unionist political parties.
The former United Kingdom can never be other than an undemocratic set-up while Westminster remains the unelected as such, “Parliament of the Kingdom of England”. Face it – The United Kingdom is no more and we are now a quadratic federation of four countries with only three of them with elected parliaments. Westminster, (still calling itself the UK Parliament), is actually an unelected as such parliament of England and is now attempting to prevent everyone else from interfering in how England runs England and thus the whole former United Kingdom.
As long as there is no properly elected parliament of England situated out with Westminster the system of government will continue to be actually London’s financial sector running England and ruling over the other three countries. There is actually no real United Kingdom now.
@ John King ( Podmore) In a word NAW.
Kenny,
Re your post @7.50am.
The troll did not “completely misunderstand” one of your previous posts. It very deliberately twists and misinterprets peoples words in order to disrupt, provoke and anger them. That is its style.
It badly attempts to come across as educated and intelligent.
Go over to NNS and you’ll see another perfect example of its attempts.
Standard advice to combat trolls, they say, is to starve them,
don’t respond directly to them – do not feed the trolls.
Trolls also detest being exposed because that means they failed in their mission.
I also wonder how its employers would feel about its behaviour and lies?
🙂
GrahamB reply. What about the missing fourth too?
TOO SCARED
Gordon Brown
“devolved powers will ensure that no poll tax, no bedroom tax and no enforced rail privatisation will ever be enforced on Scotland”
1.english votes,english laws
2.fracking
ensure my @ss
This –
Chitterinlicht says:
17 October, 2014 at 7:10 pm
If No voters were shouting from the roof with anger at broken vow I would feel sorry for them. But they are not.
All of the no voters I know (and there were many) are just back to getting about their lives. Not one has mentioned feeling betrayed, the vow, or anything like regret.
The good thing about all these stories appearing regarding oil finds, shipbuilding orders on the Clyde etc… is that they cannot be used again in “Project Fear mark II”.
and you seriously believe that?
They roll out exactly the same scare stories every time Scotland gets a bit uppity.
Trolls also detest being exposed because that means they failed in their mission.
I also wonder how its employers would feel about its behaviour and lies?
🙂
Ask my Slovene girlfriend, gorgeous pouting https://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/author/conlawforum/
She’s now on the vote No farce Lord Smith THE VOW not a chance in hell commission thing. To be fair to Adam, he always said Scottish independence would never happen and now he’s going to make absolutely certain THE VOW doesn’t either because England is the UK and Scotland is merely a region to these guys. 55% proud Scots buts agreed.
Graeme Doig 10:03am
The Perth and Kinross45 rally is at St. Matthew’s church hall,Tay Street, from 1-4pm. Pete Wishart, RIC, WFI and Greens.
McHaggis says:
18 October, 2014 at 10:17 am
This –
Chitterinlicht says:
17 October, 2014 at 7:10 pm
If No voters were shouting from the roof with anger at broken vow I would feel sorry for them. But they are not.
All of the no voters I know (and there were many) are just back to getting about their lives. Not one has mentioned feeling betrayed, the vow, or anything like regret.
Early days. Once the poor are completely bled dry, the next in line will be the lower middle class, which will be sacrificed in order to protect the dogs at the top. Those NO voters are still in denial. When austerity finally catches up with them and bites them hard, they will have no option but to face the harsh reality of the destroyed hopes and aspirations of our nation that they participated in. I wouldn’t like to be a NO voter during the next 5-10 years. We will all suffer but at least 45% of us will have a clear conscience. The NO voetsr may be in a comfy denial frame of mind at present, but this will soon be replaced by something deeply unpleasant. Give it time.
@ caz_m Carmichiel will keep askin for the SNP to except the NO vote in the full knowledge that the 45% are the people who wont except it, he can only snipe at the SNP & the SNP dont control the majority of the grassroots movement.
Like Lamond telling Alex Salmond to rein in the the Yes campainers again she knew the Grassroots were a body unto themselves. Thats what frightens them people with minds of there own & not of the political partys thought police.
Plodmore? Trolls? Back to reality. Morag going on and on about a clean ballot and only idiots think conspiracies abound. The Referendum was honest, and that overworked word, ‘transparent.’ Who are they kidding?
How many among us believe social sites, e-mails from the SNP to members and communications between SNP executives were not monitored constantly, key elements and regular reports forwarded to Number 10, campaign plans altered accordingly?
We forget, the Nos voted for more of that too. They voted for a kind of electronic Stasi prying into our lives.
No no no…Yes
Thanks for that. Is a church hall sufficient for potential turn out?
Chitternlicht says
“If No voters were shouting from the roof with anger at broken vow I would feel sorry for them. But they are not.”
No and they never will,
since the minute they stick their heads above the parapet they will meet the withering gaze of the YES voters who cannot forgive or forget!
It can be the only time in history where the majority are the one’s who are the marginalized, and they did it to themselves, trouble is they dragged the rest of us with them.
heedtracker 10:26am
Adam Tomkins is also a Republican.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Tomkins
“Professor Tomkins is a member of the group, Republic, a British republican organisation advocating the replacement of the monarchy with a democratically-elected head of state, and has published Our Republican Constitution, a republican re-interpretation of the United Kingdom’s constitution which claims that the constitution is deeply influenced by republican principles, despite its monarchic nature.”
It surprises me that such a person was given an invite to the Smith Commission.
Morning all,
just catching up with posts from last night.
Taranaich bloody brilliant, keep it up.
the photos were hilarious especially the Alistair darling eagle Muppet..i am still laughing!
Graeme Doig 10:36am
Perth rally- it is the same venue for the recent WFI rally that had 1,000 attendees
For the No drones Who return to their blinkered lives as normal
”
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”
Drones, they are coming for you.
Graeme Doig
I hope you can get a link up for the Perth Rally.
We were at George SQ last weekend, and it really does give you a lift.
So, if you can make it to Perth today, I hope you have a similar day out as the one we had in Glasgow. It motivates people to start putting the YES posters back up on their windows or the car stickers back on the car and the YES badges back on the jackets.
The George Sq Rally turned out to be a seven hour marathon, but it was worth every minute.
And you are back in amongst fellow Wingers and other people of the fantastic YES Movement.
Great point Luigi re the lower middle class no voters. Apologies if the following point has ben made already – LORD SMITH OF KELVIN – who is leading the Scottish devolution consultation – is the Chairman of Scottish and Southern Energy – the company that is overcharging the north of Scotland for energy and plunging many households (including 70% of the Western Isles) into fuel poverty. http://maciverblog.co.uk/2014/10/15/electricity-giant-shrugs-off-surcharges-in-the-north/
As a No voter I have been lurking on the site for a while, most of the comments and articles are well thought out, even though I disagree with the majority. It’s good to get the feel of what the other site feel and think. I have noticed though that there does seem to be a growing feeling on the site that anyone who voted no must have been, to paraphrase, to thick to understand the issue, or gullible enough to swallow the lies apparently peddled by the BT campaign. In my experience the people I know who voted no, couldn’t give a toss about the vow or extra powers, they simply were happy with the status quo and saw no reason to change. If a majority is to be achieved then comments like this will do you no favours. You need to win minds as well as heads. A few of my no voting friends made the point that if everything was decided before hand eg currency, eu membership, defence etc then put to a vote then they would have possibly voted yes. It was the uncertainty that put them off, not a lack of understanding. The yes campaign has no right to the moral high ground, as the no campaign doesn’t either. Voting No doesn’t make me any less Scottish then voting yes, to brand no voters as unpatriotic is also not going to help as is the constant references to the vote being null and void. There possibly are enough swing voters out there to make a change but slagging us off isn’t going to get any of us to.
Thistle’s fundraiser appears to have stalled. Can we please give it a wee kick?
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scottish-independence-live-events–2
Taranaich says:
“The idea that Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling of all people dare to proclaim their supposed enthusiasm for devolution absolutely sickens me knowing what I know now. How in the hell did anyone believe these people?
http://wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/the-devo-files/
”
Excellent analysis. Obvious who the anti-devolution MPs are, all LAB/Con/Lib Scottish ones! So if there had been Scottish only votes on Scottish laws at WM, the Scotland Bill wouldn’t have passed.
There is no such thing as a pro-devolution Unionist. In their minds it’s a con to try to contain the aspirations of the Scottish people. It’s about tossing a few powers north, but retaining finacial control.
t was also about having SLab stooges in Holyrood running things for their Imperial Masters in London – at least that bit didn’t exactly work out!
Terry: Lord Smith of Kelvin – who is leading the Scottish devolution consultation – is the Chairman of Scottish and Southern Energy –
He has a piss-poor track record overseeing companies.
‘Where has it all gone?’ – grousebeater.wordpress
OT
Iain Macwhirter bumping his gums about Federalism being the only thing left.
Jeez, somebody please remind me of the definition of stupidity?
At his age surely he should have learned about abandoning failed and unworkable ideas and moving on?
Taranaich, respect!
Don’t take any direction from the ‘move along now, nothing to see here crowd’, when it’s clear they don’t even want to consider the dirty tricks that most certainly could have been, so most definitely were, deployed.
Don’t think for one minute there were no shenanigans from the UK establishment machine? If you are you so gullible over this, when does this come to a crashing stop – or will we persist in biting the proverbial bullet?
If 4,285,323 people registered to vote, yet only 3,619,915 votes were declared, what happened to the 665,408 who were registered, but their vote did not get declared?
How come the only pieces of information that point to skullduggery are against YES – not one instance has been turned up to show NO votes going wayward?
If we Scots follow the perceived wisdom that one should always learn from one’s mistakes, we should be the smartest people on this planet, but so long as some don’t want to frighten the horses, we’ll remain absurdly dim.
re Smith/SSE etc, this:
https://archive.today/ht8Kv
The funniest thing about the Record Vow is that the No campaigners are now trashing it more than YES
brian wilson–the scotsman
“let’s all join hands and talk about “the vow” and how – surprise, surprise”
@ Luigi
“Early days. Once the poor are completely bled dry, the next in line will be the lower middle class, which will be sacrificed in order to protect the dogs at the top. Those NO voters are still in denial. When austerity finally catches up with them and bites them hard, they will have no option but to face the harsh reality of the destroyed hopes and aspirations of our nation that they participated in. I wouldn’t like to be a NO voter during the next 5-10 years. We will all suffer but at least 45% of us will have a clear conscience. The NO voetsr may be in a comfy denial frame of mind at present, but this will soon be replaced by something deeply unpleasant. Give it time.”
I agree 100%. I am independent myself in every way and can fend for myself. But I know that is not enough, you have to always care for and defend the vulnerable in society: because if you do not defend them, when the times comes there will be no one to defend you. This is the Martin Niemöller principle:
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
I also know it is important to stand up for every single minority group, because no matter who you are, there is always a “minority category” into which you can be put. It is also part of being a human being, whether you are religious or an atheist humanist, you must help the less strong in society.
Every religion and philosophy says this; those who say “greed is good” or that the vulnerable are to be despised (a la WM politics, Daily Mail) are like criminals born with a genetic kink.
I get a sense that indy will come in a bittersweet way, only because they decide to frack under rich people’s houses or some tasteless remark by PM Boris or Deputy PM Farange towards the Scottish blue-rinse brigade, who will desert NO in a fit of anger only because their wallet has been hurt.
[I would rather have had it on 18 September. Of course, a referendum is not the only way: it can be done in WM by one simple vote to repeal the Act of Union 1707…]
I am glad that the YES movement is more than just a call for Scotland to be a sovereign nation. There are many ways in which activists are also doing very good public work, just take a look at the fine, upstanding gentleman Darren Carnegie in George Square (watch him on livestream every day).
I also hope people who are feeling vulnerable or frightened because of cuts and other things can come on here and get good advice and the little help that we on here might be able to give — because in life if you do not help others, there will be no one else around to help YOU.
Cameron will find this out when he is turfed out the minute that the US military-industrial complex no longer has a need for their latest poodle-lickspittle.
terry 10:52am
You mentioned Lord Smith is the Chairman of Scottish and Southern Energy . They have a price freeze until 2016 and are using a primate to promote it:
http://www.sse.co.uk/
The Labour Party are promisng a price freeze until 2017. They have Ed Miliband promoting it:
http://action.labour.org.uk/page/s/energy-calculator
Which one is the most credible?
On a more serious note, what does Lord Smith think of Labour’s price promise? Does believe it? Is it against SSE commercial interests? If he implemented it, would his company and others, just hike the prices in 2017 to make up lost ground. Or is Miliband just making it up as he goes along, just like the VOW?
McHaggis 10.21am
Don’t you think that enough voters will have become so immune to “Project Fear” by the time the next Referendum comes along, that they will laugh it off as pure propaganda.
After all, at the start of the campaign in 2012, there was probably about 30% solid YES, by the end of the campaign we were only 200,000 voters short of Full Independence.
So I have faith in you and the rest of the YES Movement, in our ability to inform enough Scots not to be influenced by another round of bullshit from the UK Establishment. (Better known as Project Fear).
Ref the cardboard cutout and “respect the result”: Just like the AV result and giving up on PR? Just like GE2010 and give up on tuition fees?
Who does he think we are? Politicians?
The Occupy Movement is keeping up the pressure but needs to do some brainstorming and come up with a strategy says Immortal Technique
http://on.rt.com/yh5v0h
Labour in Scotland wants to fully devolve itself from UK Labour.
Oh. Wait a minute. They actually want full Independence from their overlords.
I couldn’t make it up, but they sure can.
Today’s Scotsman:
“The Labour for Scotland group backs Holyrood being given full control over income tax, as well as complete responsibility for welfare – a position which goes further than Labour’s existing plans for further devolution.
It also states the party should pledge not to work with the Conservatives in any future Scottish independence referendums or “any other party whose policies are fundamentally at odds with the views of people in Scotland”.
Scottish Labour must be “fully autonomous from its London leadership”, it argues, suggesting the party north of the border should have the right to appoint its own full-time officials and write its own constitution.”
What a bunch of hypocrites.
Ronnie Anderson 10.23am
Even our very own Queen Nicola admitted that she has NO control over when the next Referendum will be, she said that,
“The people of Scotland will decide when the next Referendum will be held, not me”
Alistair Carmicheal, I hope you are listening. Stop asking Nicola, start asking us.
Bugger, on the subject of Ian McWhirter, I got thoroughly fed up with him and even with Ian Bell years ago when we actually bought a newspaper. Both of them could not make up their minds and flip flopped all over the place on the subject of, then Devolution and ultimately on the subject close to the heart of anyone who voted SNP, Independence. He is a damned sight older now and still at it.
Question, who has organised the demonstration today with regard to the minimum wage? Another thing we could have dealt with in an Independent Scotland, makes me want to weep.
That’s the statement I went ballistic about earlier Swami It’s beyond hypocrisy.
thomaspotter2014
C’mon, folks, in the spirit of good will and neighbourliness lets help our neighbours.
Sign this, you know it makes sense.
😉
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/english-referendum-on-scotlands-removal-from-union?source=facebook-share-button&time=1412503482
If the threat of a second referendum based on whatever yardstick the Nationalists find convenient persists, then Scotland will pay a heavy economic price. Let me give you one very real example. This week, Ofgem approved a short-list of interconnector projects to ensure the UK keeps its lights on. Two of them are with France, one each with Norway, Denmark and Ireland. None involves a Scottish landfall. The past two years could have been spent building a Scottish energy industry to supply the rest of the UK. Instead, we argued about whether or not to break up the UK. Others have noticed the opportunity.”
Brian Wilson/hootsman project fearing it as usual. Fair enough this shyster earned his loyalist stripes but you don’t hear Norway shrieking over oil price drops. Norway’s busy pumping their Clair oil field £10bn ino Norwergian heavy industry. It’s a world as far from troughers and liggers like Labour can even begin to imagine. It’s Yes fault that offem refused to even consider working with Scotland if we voted Yes. We didn’t so now they will.
@11.51am – Helena,
In response to your question – the TUC.
And by the way the demonisation of Nicola must not go unchallenged, it’s started already, and look at the disrespect and utter venom it produced and directed towards Alec Salmond-the most honest and principled politician of our lifetime.
Enough is enough.
Has anyone else felt that Taranaich would be a shoe in for investigative journalist on a new Scottish channel, Imagine a Scottish version of Panorama created by Taranaich and Peter Bell. wow 🙂
@ caz_m Carmicklemus wont ask us e doesent talk to the lower classes he has difficulty talking coherently full stop. Nicola will make his life hell. Alex Salmond on the back bench ( not on the backfoot ) Carmichial will see a new version of UP HELLIAH.
@ caz_M ah meant UP HELLY Aa in my last post.
@ Helena Brown
Please excuse intervention re question of yours, but I believe the demos today are organised by the Trade Unions, specifically TUC for the London one, and STUC in Glasgow, there’s also one in Belfast, ITUC, apparently.
ps o/t I also have the 20min delay, and have to reenter details for each post. I have a wordpress account, and when I signed up for here, usif the same email address and username, it automatically ascribed me the same gravatar I use on other sites. I didn’t expect that.
Perhaps the delay problem is something to do with the wordpress/gravatar side of things?
Ajazeera has been running a news story on Nth Korea’s education, what they dont say is who’s funding the children of the Elete of the Communist Party & only the children of the Elete THE WESTMINSTER GOVERNMENT millions of TAX PAYERS money goes to Nth Korea.
£230 million goes to the Indian Government ( education supposedly ) until 2015. I for one cant wait on the account books being opened,aye rite.
@Swami Backverandah
I don’t think it is the gravatar. I have the same set up and I only get the delay and not retaining sign-in details if I use Firefox. It’s OK with Chrome which is what I used when I first registered for this site in January. It is also OK on other WordPress sites using Chrome or Firefox so it is something peculiar to this site.
It has never been more clear to me than now, that Scottish labour MSPs only care about what’s in it for them, and they use the pretence of caring about the ordinary people for their own gain.
The fact that theses type of people exist, and apparently nothing can be done to stop them, is absolutely sickening.
Excellent call, John, @12.06pm.
Someone should drop this idea into the appropriate ear-hole.
btw, Its now one month on from the referendum.
Jeezo, one month, still that raw with me it feels like it was only last Thursday.
Thanks for your response Capella.
I am using firefox, and don’t have Chrome, so if it gets too bothersome (I don’t post enough for that yet) I’ll try another browser (Chrome). Ta.
Brian Wilson: “If the threat of a second referendum based on whatever yardstick the Nationalists find convenient persists…”
Em, is democracy not a good enough yardstick for you?
Nicola Sturgeon: “The people of Scotland will decide when the next Referendum will be held, not me”
Exactly. How hard is that for people to understand? Some commentators are years behind the curve: it’s not about the SNP, you know!
Of course Norway is not bothered about the current drop in oil prices. Because they have created a sovereign wealth fund exactly for that scenario!
I have never got the argument “Scotland only has 40 years of oil left”. Let us even say it is 40 years (and not 120+ years, which is more likely).
Imagine you won the lottery. You have won the equivalent of 40 years’ salary. But you are 20. You want to have some money after you are 60 as well. So you invest it! In land, in shares, in precious metals… and you live off the interest. You keep the capital, which will increase over time to offset inflation with the help of compound interest and wise investment in assets.
All countries do this. Except one….. Yes, thanks to the Treasury in London, the UK is the world’s only country to have NOTHING to show for decades of oil. In fact, even worse, it has less than nothing, it has debt of over 1.3 trillion pounds.
If Scotland had been independent in the 1970s, we would have NO national debt whatsoever, just a whacking big sovereign wealth fund — which could be used to pay the largest state pensions in Europe… and still could if only the majority of over-55s could see the light… But they prefer to believe the Daily Retard and the BBC….
heedtracker at 12.03
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
Nicola sold out the Hydro. Labour sold out Scotland. Best I’ve heard
@john king @Taranaich
Have only just finished perusing the redoubtable Taranaich’s excellent investigation and yes, John King, I think it should get an even wider audience.
(Like particularly the photo of my own mug of an MP, Russell Brown, brandishing – a mug. He’s very obedient lobby fodder is Russell, as you can tell from his eager terrier expression, but he can be snappy if cornered. My favourite quote from wee Russell, in reply to something I had said, is when he shoved back his chair and shouted, ” Democracy? Let’s not go down that road!” Loyal to his masters, but not very sharp.)
Helena: ‘Minimum Wage’ – Another thing we could have dealt with in an Independent Scotland, makes me want to weep.
Agreed.
I sent this to 38degrees in light of the hijacked petition, and suggestions from others on here to unsubscribe from them. If you do unscubscribe, let them know why, as far as I’m concerned 38degrees either knowingly or not, allowed themselves to be used to further the pretence that the ‘Vow’ was meaningful in any sense.
I signed that petition within a few days after the vote, believing it was emanating from a source that had Scotland’s interests at heart in the aftermath of the vote(I would have signed my hoose away, if I’d had one, to undo the 18th). If I had known that Gordon Brown had anything to do with it, I most certainly would never have signed.
As far as I am aware no one has discovered how this came about, and more tellingly no one has come forward from 38degrees to explain thier part in this.
When you click unsubscribe at the bottom of any 38degree petition, a new page will appear asking your reason, drop down menu: choose ‘other’. My tuppeny worth:
‘I completely object to my name being on the petition that was sent to 10 Downing Street on behalf of Gordon Brown on the 15th October 2014. If I had known that Gordon Brown was going to ‘hijack’ this petition I would never have signed it.
I signed the petition within a day or two of the referendum result in Scotland, on the back of the sheer disappointment of that result.
Gordon Brown had played a direct part in the lies and obsfucation meted out to the Scottish electorate therefore in ignorance and fear many voted No because of his and many others ‘interventions’ on behalf of the rUK government.
The petition itself had already gathered 80,000 signatures, the vast majority being Yes, before GB announced this petition as a means to push the rUK to make good on thier ‘Vow’ that promised ‘extensive extra powers’ to the electorate, should they vote No.
Given that he played an instrumental part in league with rUK government in timetabling these promises and was given unprecedented access by the BBC to promote and encourage the No vote. It’s astounding that a petition was then required to push what he and the three amigos; Cameron, Clegg and Milliband, had promised was a certainty if Scotland voted No.
I will be informing everyone I know not to sign 38Degree petitions. I am certain I will not be the only person in Scotland who withdraws support for your organisation in light of this issue.
Please remove my name and address from your database.’
Dan1973: there does seem to be a growing feeling on the site that anyone who voted no must have been, to paraphrase, to thick to understand the issue, or gullible enough to swallow the lies apparently peddled by the BT campaign.
That’s about it.
Being happy with the staus quo, and being gullible are one and the same thing. It’s a matter of perception. People do not feel their choices are artificially limited until made aware of the extent to which they are controlled.
If they can buy material things as well as food, take the odd holiday, got money for the movies and beer, and vote once every four years, what’s the problem?
The problem is, they live a half-life.
So, as a No voter if you don’t like being called gullible, try and learn why, rather than taking offence.
It has never been more clear to me than now, that Scottish labour MSPs only care about what’s in it for them, and use the pretence of caring about the ordinary people for their own gain.
The fact that theses type of people exist, and apparently nothing can be done to stop them, is absolutely sickening.
A fair assessment of NO voters can be found on Bbc Scotland news web page ( who knew).”Middle class obscured by a Scots myth”, by Douglas Fraser paints a pretty acurate picture of this voter demograghic. How we convince them of the benefits of Independence is another perplexing matter.
@ Kenny
Turkeys voting for Christmas .
nuff said.
@12.49pm – Swami,
I wouldn’t bother, mate, i use Chrome, as do others, and same thing is happening to us. I don’t experience it anywhere other than on this site. A couple of days ago i posted asking the Rev if he was aware of the problem and expressing my concerns of the detrimental effect it may end up having on the site. I don’t think he seen my post because i never received a response. As Capella says, it is most definitely peculiar to this site, for some strange reason.
Re 38 degrees, by allowing their petition to be hijacked and not putting out a press release clearly disassociating themselves from Gordon Brown, they are committing fraud and an abuse of trust. Here is my letter to 38 degrees:
Dear Managing Director
I object very strongly to 38 degrees allowing a petition to be hijacked by an MP. It was sent to 10 Downing Street on behalf of Gordon Brown on 15 October 2014.
By consenting to this action of Gordon Brown MP, you are playing party politics with the intellectual property of people who have signed a legal document.
I consider that your action is fraud and, as a result, you should not be entrusted with intellectual property. You should not be allowed to run public petitions on the internet.
I request that you report your abuse of the trust of signatories to the relevant authorities and answer me at the above e-mail address after doing so.
I never go near any BBC site. Douglas Fraser did his unionist best to scare people into voting NO during the referendum campaign so anything he has to say about “a Sots myth” has to seen as the continuation of that campaign. Instead of berating the victims of Project Fear and the BBC disinformation service, I think it is more productive to concentrate our anger on the abusers.
or even “a Scots myth” !
Taranaich’s info.
We need to use the information here to get Scotland free of unionist MP’s in May 2015.
Research your own MP, and build up information for the leafleting campaign.
o/t but interesting
I got to this item by following a link from Craig Murray’s page.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/09/04/the-real-threat-of-terrorism-to-australians-by-the-numbers/
I wonder how the numbers would stack up for the UK.
Warsaw saw us
http://tinyurl.com/mwrewvs
Re the Herald etc David Leask chief reporter with the Herald just blocked me on twitter when I asked him to explain his papers anti-indy rhetoric.
Now u would think a chief reporter would be able to stand his ground and argue his case but no blocked.
He also prevented me from retweeting his block so no-one could see him for the coward that he is.
BTW Anas and JoLa are on the march as well – bunch of hypocrites – it’s going to be hard to fight the bias, cos the BBC will be trying to punt them as ‘caring’ etc.
And as for them going for indy from the London group – you couldn’t make it up, sometimes I feel that I’m living in a madhouse.
As for the No voter above and name calling etc, maybe others will be more charitable but apart from the OAPs that were terrified into voting No, I couldn’t care less about your hurt feelings.
You and your pals are obviously of the ‘too many unanswered’ questions brigade – life isn’t like that.
When has there ever been complete certainty about tomorrow – think about how other countries suffered to get their independence and all you had to do was put an X in a box.
K1 @ 12.56pm,
I agree and i shall follow suit but i hope you realise that all these internet petitions are a load of crap, they carry no real weight. I see them as a way of letting off some steam while maintaining my determination to see Scotland become Independent.
Here’s one good example of why they shouldn’t be taken seriously in the first place – ANYONE can create as many email accounts as they see fit and then add fake names and official post codes to them for authenticity – and the recipients of these online “petitions” are well aware of this.
Another reason, and you’ve already pointed it out, unless they are organised by a specific cause (ie- the one organised by NNS on the devolution of all broadcasting) they are open and liable to hijacking – never trust petition sites such as 38 Degrees and i would never take them seriously, especially after the Crash Gordon stunt.
It will take more time than many would like to admit for Scotland to recover from shooting itself in the foot.
@Stoker and @ Swami
As one who has had frequent problems posting,
my understanding is that the filters on this blog
correspond to the blogs commenting rules.
Anyone having trouble should make their first port of call the commenting rules. I personally did NOT and found myself in all sorts of posting problems. But now, I try always to keep to the blog posting rules – and I am problem free.
You won’t beat those filters if your post doesn’t comply.
Apologies if you are already fully compliant. Just trying to help ‘cos I’ve been there.
No, that’s not a fair assessment at all.
Let’s be clear what the vow was, it was a message of hope, that we do not have to live in this (political) mess but that we can a have a better future together.
And given that the yes campaign was all about hope too – that we do not have to live in this mess but that we can have a better future *with independence* – I really do not think you can castigate the devo-max (or federalism or whatever you call it) supporters with the no voters for believing that they dream could become true and vote accordingly.
Th proper response is not to shower them with abuse (which is exactly what Mark Steel and you are doing). It is not even saying ‘told you so’. The proper response (after first trying hard to make devo-max happen) is to be understanding and sorry. And then politely suggest that instead of grieving for what could have been they may wish to look at what is still possible, and that souverainty and independence-lite is probably th best of the remaining options.
Because if the Westminster parties continue like they do now, ther’s going to be a second referendum before you can say ‘freeeeedddddoooommmm’…
Like others I don’t know how to deal with No voters.
I feel like an eagle chained to a turkey.
I’m so frustrated, depressed and actually still very angry.
@1.18pm – Capella,
I like your thinking but i have to slightly disagree with you on a part of your post.
Yes, i think people who have the intelligence and know-how should focus their efforts on convincing and converting the “victims of Project Fear.” But i will be keeping my focus on the destruction of the unionist propaganda machine, mainly the BBC.
Horses for courses etc.
Independence will only be achieved through a multi-pronged attack.
😉
Oh I do realsie that Stoker; as I said I would’ve signed away ma hoose if I’d had one. It was just as you say, an act of powerless frustration in the face of the vote, wanting some redress. Nonetheless 38degrees can go f***k themselves in this regard, as can Brown. No reason not hold them to account for thier part in it. The more that unsubscribe, the more they and other sites will get the message.
And if indeed they are as useless as you say; then let’s get rid of them…it’s our numbers that make us powerful. Let’s practice effecting change, whether it’s withdrawing our custom from businesses, newspaper, broadcasters or 38degrees. We get used to practicing our effectiveness in these smaller efforts, it emboldens us and keeps us motivated for the big push to remove Labour from Scotland.
@ Dan1973
The problem for your friends (and you?) who are “happy with the status quo” is that the status quo is not immutable.
If you were born in 1973, you will already have seen major changes to the status quo, some of which you may have liked, and some of which you may not have liked. The same will happen in the future, which is inherently uncertain (so all the calls for “guarantees” are pointless).
We had a chance, though, to take a lot more control over that future than we have at present. You and your friends turned down that opportunity, not just for themselves (which they may suffer for if there are changes they don’t like) but for all the rest of us too. That will make it hard for me to sympathize with them if and when they do start to suffer.
And there we have it folks Flower of Scotland being half sung at the start of the Shinty on Bbc2 & the overlay of the Irish anthem at the same time,must be a lot of proud Scots there.
@Stoker
I agree, what I said was, ” I think it is more productive to concentrate our anger on the abusers.” That includes the BBC, MSM, Westminster pols, CEOs, Lords, foreign dignitaries, Brit celebs, banks, and anyone else who took the opportunity to threaten us.
Plenty to choose from.
@SquareHaggis
What a happy crowd in Warsaw! Loved the Buchanan tartan chaps. Not a strain of Flower of Scotland to be heard. But what were they singing?
@manandboy:
Education, education, education. It’s too soon to expect anything. This proselytism is only going to pay in the long run. You can’t expect people to ditch their fears or change their minds with a snap of your fingers. Such things take a lot of time, patience and energy.
We should slip into a cowl and become ‘yes’ cairds.
But don’t fret. When they are ripe, they’ll fall into the punnet.
Taranaich’s info – I managed already to at least allude to it in a comment on Herald about Carmichael – ref Crown Estates. Not sure of those details though, so I kept it short. I daresay the actual candidate could have a go about the Crown Estates, but no harm in starting the ball rolling!
A total profile of each sitting MP would be great, votes versus promises, but that’s even more of a mammoth undertaking than Taranaich’s already. It does seem though that Carmichael is all words, and no action as SoS for Scotland. Perhaps his safest seat in Scotland, isn’t so safe after all.
Capella, how can you possibly comment on the content of Fraser’s article , if you refuse to read it?
@Dan1973
The thing is that this is a pro-indy site, and carries pro-indy articles. Most by far of the posters are of course, pro-indy.
The articles are well researched, and put the pro-YES case, as well as the anti-NO case. Much of the media has done the opposite. So we are polarised, the YES thinking we’re right, and the NO thinking you’re right. And ne’er the twain shall meet!
?
Well, no. We do need to get to understand each other, to see each other’s point of view. Compromise if possible, convert if not! And perhaps modify some parts of our views, as circumstances change, or more information comes to light – information which is as impartial or “provable” as possible.
I’d be interested in seeing more of your postings.
@kininvie says: 17 October, 2014 at 6:11 pm:
“a lot of people voted for what they perceived as the less painful option.”
Aye! ininvie, but that wee observation deserves a little more thoughtful analysis. Why did a lot of people perceive it was a less painful option? My thoughts, and I may be wrong, are they were unaware for some strange reason that there was a better option. Which beggars the question – why were they unaware there was a better option?
There are several reasons that I can think of why any individual was unaware, unconvinced or unable to understand the other options were a better choice. They couldn’t be bothered to think about the matter – they couldn’t understand the matter – they didn’t trust the other options authors or were trying hard to be loyal to the first option they were offered. Then comes the biggy of reasons – they were scared shitless – told lies or were actually threatened.
I know several NO voters in each of those categories but most of all the reason was they were indeed actually too bloody thick to understand what the offer of independence meant for them personally. What else can you call spending hours telling someone the truth about, for example pensions, showing them, (and reading out to them), official UK Government documents proving their pensions were safe only for them to then tell you, “bit Ah’m feart tae loss ma pension like the boy it the door telt me”. You ask, “What bloke at the door”? To be told they, “dinna ken whit bloke bit he telt mi”.
It’s a mixture of fear, stupidity and absorbing propaganda. Think about it! They will believe a stranger at their door but disbelieve a friend that hasn’t ever told them a lie, or done other than help them, since ever they knew him.
The best one I saw during the campaign was the YES/NO house.
Front window, NO Thanx poster, end of driveway YES banner.
His n hers cars Yes/No.
They were both active in the community and both wore all the badges. Although it seemed a bit odd & somewhat counterproductive, we all respected them for their honesty, as we still do.
They cancelled each others’ votes out yes but at the same time they both stuck to their principles.
@snode1965
I read many of Fraser’s articles and listened every Sunday morning to his business broadcasts for months and realised that he was biased against independence from the tone and content of his articles. If he has had a Road to Damascus conversion now then I’m afraid it is too late, by several months. i don’t read anything by Brian Wilson either, or any other unionist journalists. What would be the point?
@Capella says: 17 October, 2014 at 6:26 pm:
“I don’t believe people did believe the Vow. But some did believe the orchestrated promises of Devo Max, Home Rule and Federalism from Gordon Brown, George Galloway and Alistair Darling, spokesmen for the Better together campaign,
And thereby hangs the tale. I, and many others, said it as soon as Better Together announced their top team to lead their campaign”. It went along the lines of, “What the hell relevance have these numpties, these Yesterday’s Men, these backbenchers and failed ministers of a failed government, got to do with anything? They have no authority to promise anything for their parties and themselves may never again hold power either at Westminster or Holyrood.
Many of us felt like voices crying in the wilderness and the sad thing was that it was as much Independence supporters as Better Together supporters who were ignoring the warnings. Mind you looking back on things now instead of amidst the bustle of the campaign is a fine thing.
Had a wee think about boycotting BBC Scotland.
Readers might disagree with my conclusions, but I welcome all views so long as they are not abusive.
‘Boycotting BBC Scotland’ – grousebeater.wordpress
Grousebeater – Being happy with the staus quo, and being gullible are one and the same thing. It’s a matter of perception. People do not feel their choices are artificially limited until made aware of the extent to which they are controlled.
If they can buy material things as well as food, take the odd holiday, got money for the movies and beer, and vote once every four years, what’s the problem?
The problem is, they live a half-life.
So, as a No voter if you don’t like being called gullible, try and learn why, rather than taking offence.
Who says I’m offended, I know I’m not gullible as I made an informed decision. The reason for my post is just because I decided to vote no it somehow in your eyes makes me something out of the manchurian candidate, some brainwashed by the bbc who does what he’s told and doesn’t reason why. It’s that attitude that isn’t going to win any referendum (which I guess will be in the next 5 to 10 years)
To say people who are happy with their life and vote no have a half life is pathetic. You assume that we all have our holidays etc and have cash for beer? What on earth has that got to do with how you vote. My best friend voted yes, has pretty much the same life as me, but according to you sanctimonious opinion his “life” is more fulfilled than mine purely cause he voted yes?
@Dan 1973
You seem to think that this was like a football match in which rival teams have their supporters and we should simply respect that we have different sides.
I’m afraid that this is a fundamental divide for me. If someone tells me that they were happy with the status quo then that means that they are happy with taking part in wars where politicians have lied about their motivations and so have not a qualm about innocent civilians being killed in their name, or with this country taking part in rendition flights and proxy torture; that you are also content with the ridiculous and hopelessly expensive Trident project; that you don’t care about the disabled and poor being further impoverished and often having to rely on foodbanks while the gap between rich and poor grows wider; that the BT side, your side, used lies and obfuscation to win the referendum….
I could go on and on but the list of appalling reasons for why choosing the status quo is a less than respectable position would be obvious to you if you were able to see further than your own personal situation. There is some hope for you since you have at least come on to this site but you still seem unable to grasp what motivates people who wished for independence. There are many good reasons why people here find the status quo abhorrent. Perhaps you should find out. It’s not too late to discover why your position makes people like me very angry.
Does the phrase “I’m alright, Jack” mean anything to you? Do you have any understanding of why your status quo appears repugnant to people like me? People on this site have tried to excuse those who voted No as being gullible and misled by the highly-motivated media. Being fooled in this situation is slightly better morally than to say that you completely support a broken and heartless system of government.
That you don’t seem to realize that even your own comfortable situation might be under threat and could even have been improved by living in a more prosperous and fairer society just makes your choice of the so-called status quo more tragic.
JGedd: … you don’t seem to realize …
A well reasoned response. Thank you.
Dan1973: To say people who are happy with their life and vote no have a half life is pathetic
Your reply is all about you.
Independence was about others.
Okay, let me put it another way.
Until and unless the people of Scotland govern our own lives we will never have the opportunity to develop to our fullest unless we leave Scotland to work and live abroad, as tens of thousands have done before us.
That’s what you voted for.
And you think I should be grateful?
Robert Peffers. You are a negative voice in the independence campaign. In an earlier post you said that older supporters of independence were standing “Too close to the wood” to see the trees. As one of the many wee saplings back in the day, and with the Unionist axe marks in my failing trunk, I am glad to see the burgeoning forest of new trees around me, of new, young supporters of independence.
You say in your last post that you felt like “voices crying in the wilderness” in the referendum campaign. Try crying in the wilderness for 50 years, before you have a go at those of us who actually did it.
I am as despairing as anybody else of this result, having been there many, many times before. I don’t believe, as you apparently do, that true supporters of independence ignored the warnings. Have you any proof of that assertion which is actually verifiable? Will wait for any links.
Dan1973: You assume that we all have our holidays etc and have cash for beer?
If you don’t, why did you vote for more of the same? It might be less if Osborne gets his way. You had the chance to be empowered politically and you tossed it away. Chump.
@Capella,
Not sure what they’re singing (mus be in Polski) 😉
Tell U what though, this referendum thingy doesn’t seem to have dented the Scots’ image quite as expected – what other fitba fans in the world have you ever seen getting handshakes after a game?
We still carry that good natured, carnival feeling around despite our recent loss.
Aye, we are a nation again.
My apologies, Capella, my mistake.
Reading your original post (@1.18pm) again, but slower, i can see i read it wrong.
Sorry.
@yesindyref2
I agree that both sides think they are right and compromise is the way forward . As I said in my post is possible for no v
oters to change their minds. but folk like grousebeater who seem to think no voters are inferior are going to be a problem getting that extra 200k votes
Pam McMahon: Try crying in the wilderness for 50 years, before you have a go at those of us who actually did it.
Neat.
Your enjoyable comment reminds me of a similar wry remark made by Lauren Bacall to a young British actress described as a ‘legend.’
“Bullshit! You need over 40 years in the business and survived before you can call yourself a legend, honey!”
Dan1973: but folk like grousebeater who seem to think no voters are inferior
Don’t take you annoyance out on me by posting falsehoods.
I consider your public reasons for voting No self-centred. I have plenty around me who voted No for other reasons. None I think of as inferior people, just misguided.
Dan1973
I didn’t campaign for a YES vote face to face (not my strong point), though I posted a lot to “disprove” the “myths” of Better Together (in quotes because it’s my opinion). But I did talk to a lot of NO voters, and understood and appreciated, mostly the reasons they were voting NO. In fact a daughter of mine voted NO, and for good reasons (for her) too.
For me, as long as people had their reasons, whichever way they voted was correct – at the time. Circumstances can change and people can change their mind too. Some NOes had decided long ago, but some did decide spur of the moment, pen in hand, two blank boxes, which one to X. Probably the same for some Yessers.
As far as the selfishness angle goes, for me, my wife and kids come first, and me second, then everyone else. If I was unmarried and childless, it might be different. Sorry about that! I was a YES, from conviction. Some were NOes, from conviction. Shrug.
Grousebeater -If you don’t, why did you vote for more of the same? It might be less if Osborne gets his way. You had the chance to be empowered politically and you tossed it away. Chump.
I voted for the status quo as the yes campaign couldn’t come up with concrete proposals . Your right it might be less for me and my family but if the yes campaign had come up with answes for bread and butter issues like interest rate, currency etc then maybe me and others like me might be persuaded. Then again just shouting chump at folk really helps the debate.
@jedd
Did the snp not want to be part of NATO. So Scotland would like it or not be part of future wars etc. not sure that voting yes would stop that. Anyway there is nothing to say that a future Scottish gov would not take part in future wars so not sure the the best reason to vote yes. And again to assume that no supporters don’t care about the poor is arrogance in the extreme
@Dan1973 – There possibly are enough swing voters out there to make a change but slagging us off isn’t going to get any of us to
Sticks and stones Dan sticks and stones..
This was bigger than you it was bigger than me and you did the wrong thing Dan. I live on the West Coast of North Britain and when I look in to my wee boys eyes I feel loads of pride and love but I also feel sorrow, I feel sorrow for the fact that he is considered collateral damage in this rotten stinking state in which we are unfortunate to reside. They keep their illegal immoral nuclear weapons where our kids play and you voted for more of the same. Thanks, well done Dan1973 but don’t come on here and bum about it.
@Dan 1973
I respect you for coming on this site. But the bottom line is despite any “patriotism” from you and other Nos you are aware of, you voted for another nation to exercise control over you. Unless, of course, you subscribe to & endorse the concept of the UK as a nation-state & everything that flows from it. If you do , at least have the honesty to say so.
The “uncertainties” you referred to in your first post (EU, defence, currency?) were comprehensively de-bunked on this site & many others online prior to the vote. If you’re not gullible & you understood all the issues, then can you enlighten us what still exorcised you? Let’s take the EU. Were you ignorant of the “uncertainty” of a UK withdrawal after any 2017 in/out referendum?
You talk about “compromise”. Over what? More ‘powers’ a la the Unioist parties’ plans for the Scottish Parlament to act as tax collectors & a suffer a cut in Barnett funding, whilst about 75% of Scottish tax receipts (ie. non-income tax) are retained by London? Will that make any real, meaningful, significant change to the quality of life of Scots?
Good on you if you’re doing ‘alright’ just now & are happy with the status quo. I hate to shatter your illusions though about the UK. But look at every possible measure of economic & social success and compare them with our European & world competitors : GDP per head, inequality, child poverty, level of pension provision, mortality rates. The UK does not exactly shine. Take Ireland, for example (yes Ireland : remember we used to be told ‘we’d be as poor as the Irish” if we were independent?) has a GDP per head higher than the UK. And here’s the irony, on the very day of the indy vote, they posted economic growth of over 7%. The UK…. first into the recession & last out.
Stay patriotic though, Dan.
To be perfectly honest, some of the comments I read would almost make me want to vote NO, if I hadn’t been a supporter of Independence for 40 years.
Reasoned and understanding debate – not. Useful apart from chest-beating and self-gratifying tarzan antics – not. Winning over NO voters for next time – not.
Dan1973: voted for the status quo as the yes campaign couldn’t come up with concrete proposals.
620 pages of a White Paper and all blank! Astonishing.
Bolivia elects a man of the people, Evo Morales, farmer, politician, and footballer.
Unlike his fat predecessors who lined their pockets, andlived in luxury, military leaders and aristocracy, Morales uses the profit from reserves of natural gas to raise the living standards of the mass of his people and all but eradicates illiteracy.
He turns his nation’s economy to help the poor, poor for generations, poor for eons, without hope. Previously, 82% of profits went to the gas companies, 18% to the state. Morales reversed that and established a programme to benefit his people. He is about to be re-elected for the third time.
And Dan1973 says, “The Yes campaign couldn’t come up with concrete proposals.”
It seems neither could Dan.
Some folk don’t deserve to run their own country.
Dan @5.45pm said:
“if the Yes campaign had come up with answers for bread and butter issues like interest rate, currency etc, then maybe me and others like me might be persuaded.”
LIAR
And if you’re going to come on here talking shite, that’s exactly the response you’ll get. Things like the currency issue were answered over and over again. The currency issue was not only answered but was also backed up by legal fact.
YOU, and people like you, chose to believe Red Tory Traitors and their corrupt media machine over people who were quoting legal facts.
BTW, you have the distinct stench of wee Willie Plodmore about you.
🙂
@yesindyref2 – I’ll keep it simple..Fuck them, they aren’t going to come on here to be convinced or otherwise anyway so why should anyone on here pussyfoot about any of them. They voted against their country I don’t care the about there reasons but we don’t need anyone on our own side making excuses for them as I said..Fuck them
Stoker: Dan1973 – if you’re going to come on here talking shite
I never put it like that but your reposte is justified. I sit rereading the crapology and think, the idiot doesn’t deserve a reply. Then good manners get the better of me…
Why do people in Scotland trust millionaires in London more than my daughter and my son;-in-law?
Grouse Beater @ 6.49pm
That’s because you seem to be a relatively well mannered human being, as am i, but i have a very low tolerance level for liars, especially the ones who are blatantly trying to extract the urine.
😉
@Dan1973
So, how did you voting for the status quo and more austerity, visited particularly harshly on the most vulnerable, mean that you cared about the poor? The present government and any future Labour government were clear that they were going to carry on with their unfair austerity programme. Independence was the only option for change, to break away from neo-liberal governance.
I notice that you never attempt to defend these policies but simply attack other people who reply to you as being unfair or arrogant. You certainly didn’t say that you were considering the poor when you voted for the status quo, but simply attacked me as being arrogant. Now that’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black! Are you saying that you are against austerity but voted for a system that was bent on relentlessly pursuing that policy? That is what you have done throughout, avoiding defending while complaining about any response. You only complain, you don’t explain.
The independence campaign was not about voting for the SNP. Scotland might have voted in future to come out off NATO. However, to consciously vote for a system which already exists is not the same as some possible situation in the future. We have no chance to exert any influence over the Westminster parties in the present constitutional arrangements but with independence we open up new opportunities, which you closed down for us.
Your Westminster system voted for war in Iraq based on a lie and thousands were killed. (The SNP at the time were against it.) We still live with the ramifications of those duplicitous policies. You voted for that system to continue. But I notice that yet again you don’t commit to any position, just attack. You were the one who declared that your vote was about support for the status quo with which you were perfectly content.
By the way I don’t believe that your position was anything to do with honest engagement at all. You seem a thoroughly confirmed NO to me. The clue is that at no time do you commit to any really positive view of your side’s arguments you simply attack and criticise. All of the things you chose to believe were simply that – choosing to believe because it suited your lifestyle.
All the BT arguments were answered and their lies were exposed. If you were looking the other way or not listening then I would suggest that you are a convinced No voter thoroughly wedded to an establishment viewpoint. The information was there and indeed is still there for those with genuine interest. I just don’t think that you are one of those. That is why I will not engage with you in the future at all.
Stoker: I have a very low tolerance level for liars
More power to you, Stoker the Poker!
Dan1973
no concrete proposals, so where are UKOK’s?
name 1 job creation policy or 1 job’s creation initiative that is already in practice?
Grouse Beater says:
18 October, 2014 at 8:11 pm
Stoker: I have a very low tolerance level for liars
More power to you, Stoker the Poker!
🙂
Stoker: I have a very low tolerance level for liars
I’ll hang my hat on that.
Getting seriously tired of this now. The anonymous pundit Grouse Beater moans like stink if I contribute to any discussion about voting fraud, but thinks it’s perfectly OK to post insultingly about me in a thread where I hadn’t even contributed.
I’ll say it once more. If anyone can think of a practical, coherent way the referendum vote could have been tampered with in an organised, systematic fashion, in such a way as to change a Yes vote into a near-400,000-vote majority for No, I’m all ears.
Others have of course written about this more eloquently than I have.
http://www.lawyersforyes.org/2014/10/05/jonathan-mitchell-the-suggested-grounds-for-judicial-review-of-the-referendum/
In particular, as regards the blank-backed ballots story, I’m still waiting for one single person who noticed their ballot paper was blank on the back and drew attention to the fact, before they put it in the ballot box. Since the polling cards had the information on them that there was supposed to be a number on the back, you’d think someone might have noticed at the time. (Since the polling clerk had to turn the paper over and write the number on a sheet alongside the voter’s number, it’s kind of impossible really.)
I’m also waiting for someone to explain what the hell was the point of this alleged complicated and inherently dangerous scam to issue some people with blank-backed ballots. What can you do with a blank-backed ballot that you can’t do with a normal one?
All these fair and reasonable questions are being ignored in favour of sneers, insults and demands that I shut the hell up. I wonder why?
The latest seems to be to imply that I’m denying that any other dirty tricks were indulged in by the No campaign. I have no doubt that the No campaign indulged in every dirty trick they could actually manage. I merely point out that tampering with the actual ballot papers on a systematic and large scale is not part of that.
@Grousebeater @stoker
So if someone has a different opinion they are liars? Interesting argument.
Someone asked me to be honest, well that’s fine. I was a no supporter from the outset, but was interested and open to the other sides argument. Even yes supporters must admit the white paper was a load of hot air, people want facts, cold hard written in stone facts. Whilst the yes campaign had good and interesting arguments the issue was with delivery. Could you deliver the pound, the EU membership, etc. as these were not definates that’s why a good percentage voted no in my opinion. Call me a liar if you want but if you want get what you want you have to recognise that you need to reach out from the core nationalist vote.
@Dan1973 – people want facts, cold hard written in stone facts. Whilst the yes campaign had good and interesting arguments the issue was with delivery. Could you deliver the pound, the EU membership, etc. as these were not definates that’s why a good percentage voted no in my opinion
Are you for real ??
Why didn’t you address my answer to you about illegal weapons where our children play??
The pound!! pish..The EU!! pish!! you better come up with some decent arguments for voting no or you can fuck right off!!
Dan, the vision of the future presented by the Yes campaign was as definite as the vision of the future presented by the No campaign. Nobody can give any cast-iron set-in-stone guarantees about the future.
Your problem is that you regard the uncertainty as being all on one side, when it is not. You also seem entirely unwilling to examine probabilities. The probability that Westminster would refuse a currency union, or that Scotland would be expelled from the EU, or that interest rates would be set on some sort of punitive scale unknown to any other country in the world, was always minuscule.
Some of us were able to look beyond the self-serving rhetoric of those who would say anything or do anything to try to prevent a Yes vote. You clearly weren’t.
The probability that Westminster will take the UK out of Europe in the next few years, that sterling will lose more and more of its value, and that interest rates will rise – well, go think about it.
Setting the two futures beside each other and looking at the potential and the risks on both sides was a no-brainer for independence. If you were unwilling or unable to do that, then that’s really your own problem. It speaks to a mindset determined to vote No regardless, which is of course your prerogative, but in that case I don’t think your time is being very productively spent posting on Wings.
Dan1973
what do you want a servant, serve yourself, common sense, tells you scotland will have a currency, every country has a currency.
the economy of iceland is soaring cos they did the right things.
jailed the bankers and bailed out the people.
the white paper was full of sensible proposals.
we added more sensible tried and tested proposals, from BfS the jimmy reid foundation et al, models that worked.
sweden for instance is now looking @ a 6 hr day, pensions in sweden are £26000/yr.
before you ask they compete very well globally.
Dan 1973 – the problem I have with your comments – as do others by what I can read – is they are sterile and banal.
They have no bearing on what is happening in Scotland, and don’t show any concern for others. You squander good bandwith better used for constructive discussion, and set yourself up as an easy Aunt Sally.
I agree about Iceland, a country with its own currency. I could never understand why an independent country would want to hang it’s cost on another countries currency and dependant on them picking interest rates. The honest solution would be as Jim sillars said a Scottish currency. That would have been risky but it least in tune with an independent country and would have killed the pound argument at birth.
Must admit although I expected some grief when I stuck my head above the parapet the level of debate hasn’t been as high as I expected. From being called a liar to the Wildean wit of Croompenstein who used the highest repartee and told me to fuck off.
It’s unfortunate as interesting comments and points for discussion were raised by yes2indyref and Fred blogger.
Seems wings is a closed shop where people only preach to the converted. If you want things to change then I would suggest engaging in debate. Sure most people won’t agree on the facts but some folk are up for getting their minds changed.
@Dan1973 – Wildean wit of Croompenstein who used the highest repartee and told me to fuck off
You still haven’t answered my concerns!! and I never told you to fuck off, I told you to fuck RIGHT off!!!
It seems to me that Dan repeatedly cherry-picks the poor responses to his posts, and in particular the abusive ones, and responds only to them.
Telling.
Dan1973: If you want things to change then I would suggest en/gaging in debate
True. If only you had something to contribute.
Dan1973
as far as i’m concerned there is no debate to be had, with you.
you want info go find it.
but if you’re uncertain ask away.
i’d say you’re full of self doubt, and don’t like to admit it.
Hi morag, to be fair the abusive ones far outweigh the decent ones. I think I have responded to most points, maybe generally and not point by point. I have addressed currency, the poor, NATO defence and the EU. Even addressed my own selfish reasons for voting no. If I have missed some salient points amongst the abuse I apologise but it’s human nature to respond to the kickings first.
Fred blogger, there is nothing to admit, I voted no like a lot of voters for my own reasons . As I said beforehand perhaps could have been persuaded by concrete proposals but none were forthcoming. I know my interest rate is fixed for the next 5 years, my wife and children have a roof over there head and hopefully my job is safe as it can be. Selfish yes, but my family come first and I was not prepared to take the leap in the dark. And that’s my point, there are no voters out there who like the ideas of Indy but didn’t want to take the risk. It’s like buying a house. You make sure you know everything is clear and there are no nasty suprises before you buy.
I totally understand people who believe in independence come what may, but the challenge now surely is to persuade the doubters with sound argument not cheap shots and jibes about intelligence.
@Dan1973 – Please answer my concerns I asked you at 6:02pm and stop skirting and talking absolute pish
Dan1973
your mind is firmly made up, so you now play the helpful devils advocate?
if people; “And that’s my point, there are no voters out there who like the ideas of Indy but didn’t want to take the risk. It’s like buying a house. You make sure you k….” are in that position then it is for them to find out for themselves.
scotland has very strong foundations to become a very prosperous indy country, just like all the others have done before.
“Must admit although I expected some grief when I stuck my head above the parapet the level of debate hasn’t been as high as I expected.”
So…
Crazycat @ 2.07pm Ignored
JGedd @ 3.26pm Ignored
Croompenstein @ 6.02pm Ignored
Democracy Reborn @ 6.12pm Ignored
JGedd (again) @ 7.42pm Ignored
Croompenstein (again) @ 10.02pm Ignored
Morag @ 10.06pm Ignored
Fred blogger @ 10.07pm Ignored
The level of debate was excellent. You don’t debate. You ignore.
Dan @ Anytime Ignore.
Collateral damage a bit ott. You might not like Westminster but they arnt going to start bombing!
Regarding wmd, these weapons have such power that if the balloon goes up it doesn’t really matter if they are in faslane or Falmouth. Might as well keep them here and get jobs out of it. I have a feeling that they might have been used as a bargaining chip in the event of a yes vote. They kept here for oil / pound / eu membership etc
@Danpish – Regarding wmd, these weapons have such power that if the balloon goes up it doesn’t really matter if they are in faslane or Falmouth. Might as well keep them here and get jobs out of it
Right OK…Fuck Off!!
I doubt it Dan, the SNP conference managed to get NATO on the manifesto by just 52%, but it was very conditional on getting rid of Trident. The party would implode if the leadership went back on that one. Trident was a baorgaining chip, but more in the way of “how liong” rather than whether. I think that’s why Slond upped the ante at the end by making it a “definite” 5 years, to hack off Westminster. It would have been 10, but maybe in exchange for T26 being built on the Clyde.
It’s likely the “currency union” was also a part of the post-YES negotiaion as well, to secure perhaps a lower share of debt. If Salmond had said “OK, it’s our own currency”, then he would be voluntarily giving up the £ sterling, hence no compensation on the shared £. As you say, a new currency would be no problem basically, and apparently cost very little (a few respected sources).
Dan, there are very few civilian jobs in Scotland relating to Trident. And military personnel go where they’re posted. Helensburgh is practically a ghost town. The people at the base generally live there when on duty and bugger off somewhere else when they’re not. The area would be far more prosperous were it to be the main base of a conventional Scottish naval force as proposed by the White Paper.
If there is a nuclear war, we’re all screwed. But the main concern is lower-level accidents. Chernobyl and Fukushima are absolute disaster zones, but they’re finite. It’s the same argument with Faslane. An accident there could wipe out a large percentage of populated Scotland, while leaving populated England entirely untouched.
Trident was a red-line issue. The only question would be how soon it would be removed. It wasn’t needed as a bargaining chip for the things you mention. Even before the vote it was already acknowledged that Scotland’s continuing membership of the EU would be negotiated in the 18 months leading up to independence day. Or do you really think the pragmatic, expansionist EU was going to spent 18 months figuring how to expel the country (with all the complications that would entail) only then to start negotiating it back in again? Really?
The oil that’s still in the ground is Scotland’s. The oil that was extracted during the union is the UK’s (or rather the tax on it). There is absolutely no way a foreign country can claim ownership of another country’s unextracted mineral wealth.
It has already been made pretty clear that the Bank of England was getting ready for a currency union. A currency union was far more essential to England than to Scotland after independence, and some way would have to have been found for Cameron and Osborne to climb down on that one.
This is all no more than common sense. You simply have to look past the rhetoric of a bunch of people so terrified of losing Scotland’s resources, and of the loss of international prestige that would follow from “losing Scotland” that they would say or do anything to influence people in Scotland to vote No. They literally didn’t care about the truth or the consequences of anything they said. If it secured them a No vote then that was all that mattered because after that they would be the masters and there would be nothing we could do about it.
If there had been a Yes vote you’d have found out fast enough just how lying and dishonest they had been. They didn’t really care though, because a Yes and the loss of Scotland’s resources and (for the Scottish MPs) their ticket to the gravy train, were the ultimate disaster anyway.
Dan1973 says:
19 October, 2014 at 12:40 am
Collateral damage a bit ott. You might not like Westminster but they arnt going to start bombing!
Regarding wmd, these weapons have such power that if the balloon goes up it doesn’t really matter if they are in faslane or Falmouth. Might as well keep them here and get jobs out of it. I have a feeling that they might have been used as a bargaining chip in the event of a yes vote. They kept here for oil / pound / eu membership etc.
Dan FFS, now i know this is TOTALLY out there, but keeping gas chambers would keep employment up yeh?, now either put up or shut up my friend, cos you aint bringing anything to a so called debate.
It’s as K1 says. Dan ignores the detailed, thoughtful posts, homes in on the weaker and the insulting ones, and then complains that he’s not getting good debate.
He’ll come back here, express outrage that Croompenstein swore at him, denounce us all for foul-mouthed fools, and flounce off. This is a classic technique of the troll with no serious arguments. I’ve come across it so many times, most notably from homoeopaths. You can be as restrained and as reasoned as you like, but the minute you (or someone else) expresses the slightest irritation, that’s you denounced as “emotional and insulting” and it’s the perfect excuse to walk away.
Sugar pills still aren’t medicine though.
Dan, I don’t know why you’re here. If you don’t want to think about any of the replies you’ve been given, then fine, but if you don’t, why bother?
Dan, in addition to what Morag is saying about Faslane, there are very sustantial living quarters there, there are bar(s), restaurant(s) and shops (concessions I think). There is substantial local employment, but much if not all of that would be needed after a times, as the SDF base took over from the nuclear part. It still needs gardeners, maintainance people, guards, logistics, procurement, cleaners, blah blah. Plus it was going to be the HQ.
As for the concerns of all these, EU, currency, interest rates etc., according to the Ashcroft post-referendum poll, this is precisely why 47% of the 55% voted NO – uncertainty. So no, that’s not a troll, that’s reality, and I found it myself amongst the NO voters I talked to over the 2+ years.
In the last week, BT came out with “If you don’t know, vote NO”. It was very effective.
Wasn’t it about 500 jobs? Some job-creation project!
Jobs have been lost since 18th September. Jobs are lost all the time, but then jobs are created as well. People move between jobs throughout their careers, it’s normal.
Dan is only focussing on jobs that might be lost as a result of independence. How secure are these jobs anyway? How do people feel now who voted No and still find their jobs are to go? And what about the jobs created as a result of independence? Should we obsessively hold on to 500 jobs (spending many millions to secure them) while turning our backs on the hundreds of thousands of jobs independence would bring?
Wow
dan1973
Way to go spoiling a party,
how do I get my coterie together to have “a wee blether in our own way” after that?
BTW grouse beater (couldn’t be arsed giving you caps on you initials),
in the immortal words of Croompenstien
FUCK RIGHT OFF!
I don’t really care too much about WMD. Only commented as asked to do so. I would take a guess that most voters don’t care either. True it’s an important issue to some but not sure it’s up there with the more important issues.
Morag all you seem to be saying is that I ignore points being made and just complain about being swore at. If you read my posts I don’t complain but I do comment about some of the responses. I couldn’t care less if the response is to tell me to fuck off or keep taking the tablets. You aren’t going to change hearts and minds like that.
I assumed a troll is someone who would come on and just shout abuse and wind folk up. Not sure I done that. Just trying to engage
Your points about the eu and currency union make it seem as it was all a done deal and an independent Scotland would get everything it wanted. I simply don’t believe that to be the case . You are asking people to believe that the “horrid Nasty Westminster govt that has spent the last Decades shafting Scotland” would then dramatically come a yes vote lie on it’s back and get it’s tummy tickled simply doesn’t add up. Maybe they would have eventually but my point is no one could tell for sure and that’s the people you need to win over.
I am under no illusions that voting no doesn’t mean it’s all plain sailing, it is purely a mitigation of risk. I have lost 3 long term jobs suddenly with no warning so I am fully aware that it could happen. At any time again. It’s a fact of life regardless of government.
Morag since you are so keen on accusing me of ignoring thoughtful posts maybe you can answer the point on currency. Surely having our own currency and not relying on using another countries and therefore having no say on interest rates would have been a more honest position to put to the electorate?
That’s what I have been trying to put across, it’s not trolling it’s some insight on why people voted no. It’s far to simplistic to say we were lied to or didn’t understand. There are votes up for grabs and in my opinion if everything was laid out before a vote so people knew exactly what they were getting then me and others could possibly be persuaded. To get that 51% needs more than braveheart and bagpipes.
I know some folk will say the facts were all laid out but when you have two sides of the argument just cause you say one side is fact doesn’t make it so.
The yes campaign had a lot in its favour, the wording of the question, the timing, a useful bogeyman in Cameron and a Tory led govt, and let’s be honest a pretty poor no campaign. And yet it fell short. To ignore the reasons why is just leading to the same mistakes if or when another ref happens
Eccles: FUCK RIGHT OFF!
Right back at you, brother.
Dan1973: It’s far to simplistic to say we were lied to or didn’t understand.
Those who think the British Establishment left Scotland to get on with the debate and did not attempt to undermine and defelect it certainly did not understand how Westminster and the Treasury keep their power base.
Dans no the Man for conversion,we,ve heard all these arguments, we,ve discussed each & every issue,insideout, upside doon, backside forward,left to right,pros & cons.
What we do know is that Scotland has long been shafted,some people refuse to see the benefits of Self Government,
I had to laugh when Milliband announced Cancer treatment within 7 days, Burnham waxing on Marr today & Labour’s next trick involve’s Loaf,s & Fishes but they are engadged in feeding the poor people in Glasgow as a result of Lab/Tory/LDems governance,might be Milliband will have to change tact & walk on water.
Ronnie Anderson: Dans no the Man for conversion, we’ve heard all these arguments … What we do know is that Scotland has long been shafted, and some people refuse to see the benefits of Self Government
Aye, true. Best leave him to talk among himself.
I wouldn’t want to emulate Ireland in any way, yes they posted those growth figure but it would be hard not to get growth from the previous years figures as the arse fell out the economy, massive job losses and a housing crash, then having to go cap in hand begging for a bailout. Your so called uk nation state ponied up billions as well to help them out. Something you seem to have conveniently forgotten. There are plenty better examples to choose, Sweden, Denmark etc. Ireland not a chance
@Dan1973
The following is extracted from a report in the Guardian on Feb 28 2014.
The family of a man who starved to death four months after his benefits were cut off has called on the government to reform the way it treats people with mental health problems when it assesses their eligibility for benefits.
Mark Wood, 44, who had a number of complex mental health conditions, died at his home last August, months after an Atos fitness-for-work assessment found him fit for work. This assessment triggered a decision by the jobcentre to stop his sickness benefits, leaving him just £40 a week to live on. His housing benefits were stopped at around the same time.
The Oxfordshire coroner, Darren Salter, said that although it was impossible to identify the cause of death, it was probably “caused or contributed to by Wood being markedly underweight and malnourished”. He weighed 5st 8lbs (35kg) when he died; his doctor said his body mass index was not compatible with life.
Wood, of Bampton, Oxfordshire, was not told his housing benefit and employment and support allowance (ESA) had been stopped, and struggled to survive on the £40-a-week disability allowance that remained. He was reluctant to ask relatives for help and they were unaware his benefits payments had been removed until shortly before he died.
Concerned about his patient’s condition, Wood’s doctor, Nicholas Ward, wrote a letter for Wood to pass to the jobcentre in support of his benefits application, stating that he was “extremely unwell and absolutely unfit for any work whatsoever”.
The letter, presented to the inquest, stated that his anxiety disorder and obsessional traits had been made “significantly worse” because of the pressure put on him by benefit changes. It continued: “Please do not stop or reduce his benefits as this will have ongoing, significant impact on his mental health. He simply is not well enough to cope with this extra stress. His mental and medical condition is extremely serious.”
It was not clear whether the letter reached the jobcentre.
Dr Ward told the inquest the Atos decision was an “accelerating factor” in Wood’s decline and eventual death, according to his family. Wood told housing association staff he was very distressed housing benefit had been cut off, and by letters about rising rent arrears and warnings from the electricity company his supply would be cut off. Many letters were unopened, so he was unaware he needed to visit the jobcentre to reapply for support, his sister, Cathie Wood, said.
He was a “sweet and gentle” person, she said. “He didn’t deserve to die. He wasn’t harming anyone.”
Her brother had struggled with undiagnosed mental health issues all his life, which made it impossible for him to work. He was diagnosed with Asperger syndrome and obsessive compulsive disorder in his late 20s, and had an eating disorder and cognitive behavioural problems when he died. He was sacked from his first job because his employer said he was “unable to follow instructions”.
“We worked for years to create a place for him to live safely. But that stopped when his benefits were stopped. He tried so hard to survive,” Ms Wood said.
On Thursday, a government minister apologised after it emerged that the Department for Work and Pensions had written to a woman asking her to begin “intensive work-focused activity” although at the time she was in a coma.
You can find the full article through a simple Google search, if you’re interested.
For me, this sums up why I voted Yes. David Miliband has made clear that New Labour will do nothing to change the current system for benefits and in fact is trying to get elected by out-torying the Tories. ATOS are due to be replaced by an even worse American company called Maximus early next year; this company was fined millions of dollars for fraud in the US and for underpaying Workfare recipients.
My point is this: by voting No, 55% of the people of Scotland chose to remain in a situation in which poor and vulnerable people starve to death in two of the richest countries in the world. This is not due to a lack of resources, but to the unequal distribution of those resources. UK governments rely on Scotland’s wealth to prop them up, while keeping Scotland’s people poor and ignorant. If you don’t believe me, then go and look at the facts and figures on Business for Scotland and in the Wee Blue Book. All of these facts and figures are sourced and referenced so that you can go and check them for yourself. If you don’t want to do that, then I’m afraid I have no further time for your comments, as you clearly are not interested in informed debate.
For those of us who actually care about our fellow human beings (and by the way, that poor man could have been my own son in 20 years’ time if for some reason my husband and I weren’t around to look after him) then voting Yes was the only moral choice. I live my life according to the principle that we are put here on earth to help others. I’m sorry that you don’t; you are the poorer and unhappier for it, not in material terms, but in the only ways which really matter.
@Dan 1973
We’ve all tried Dan, we’ve all tried…
This is my last riposte to you. You are an entrenched, immovable No voter. You refuse to engage other than offering bald assertions that more “facts” are required.
I gave you Ireland as just one example. I could have chosen any number of other European countries as a comparator such as the ones you mention : Denmark & Sweden…. oh, & of course the third richest country in the world with a similar population to Scotland & similarly blessed with oil which they have used to benefit their people – Norway.
It is an objective fact though that Ireland has a higher GDP per head than the UK, Dan. And as for “the arse fell out of the economy, massive job losses & a housing crash”. You’re having a laugh, aren’t you? That didn’t happen in the UK after 2008? And as for “bailouts”, you are aware that the U.S. pumped billions into the UK banking system after the crash?
You have failed to give a single sound economic reason as to why there wouldn’t have been a currency union, which self-evidently would benefit both Scotland & the rUK in a single UK market. You’ve failed to give a sound reason as to why the EU would see fit to block or delay membership of a country whose citizens are already EU citizens & have been for 40 years. In your purported concern about “uncertainty”, you’ve failed to address the much more serious & real threat of a Uak withdrawal from the EU in a 2017 in/out referendum from the Tories/UKIP.
“Braveheart & bagpipes”, Dan? With that comment, you have truly revealed yourself. It is only convinced Unionists who level that phrase against supporters of independence. I doubt you will find a single poster on this site who think that Scottish sovereignty is anything to do with those. In fact, you are the self-confessed “patriot”, so I guess those little cultural icons mean more to you than anyone here.
@Democracy Reborn 11.46am
I suspect Dan has either crawled back under his stone of selfishness or is too ashamed to comment after discovering that he happily voted for a union in which vulnerable people are forced to starve to death. I wouldn’t waste any more time on him if I were you; as Mark Twain said:
“Never argue with stupid people; they only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
Dan1973
i said “your mind is firmly made up, so you now play the helpful devils advocate?
if people; you said “And that’s my point, there are no voters out there who like the ideas of Indy but didn’t want to take the risk. It’s like buying a house. You make sure you k….” are in that position then it is for them to find out for themselves.”
as soon as you said the above you announced/confirmed yourself as a troll.
you also claimed that you voted no because of interest rate uncertainties.
which means you know nothing of economics, perhaps as much as the man without a clue in this youtube clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no92Wq9lPIU
I noticed that Plaid Cymru also consistently voted with the SNP on Scottish devolution, and the SNP with PC on Welsh Devolution. Not sure about the NI parties, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they also didn’t mirror each other’s votes.
Thanks! Believe me, I was angry myself going through each MP, each vote, thinking “come ON, guys.”
Thanks! It’ll be fairly soon.
Thanks! I’m quite thrilled at the exposure it has on Facebook and Twitter, been viewed over a thousand time so far.
Thanks! I think it’s pretty important to include the SNP votes on multiple matters. theyworkforyou.com is very strange: they present SNP as voting “moderately for” more devolution to Scotland, yet publicwhip calls them “strongly for” more devolution to Scotland. Likewise, most New Labour MPs are “a mixture of for and against” more devolution on theyworkforyou, whereas on publicwhip they’re “moderately against.”
Well in fairness that’s a wee Greg Moodie reference, and I’m sure many others have made the connection!
Most NL/LD MPs voted for the Scotland bill, they just voted against a second reading which acknowledged its shortcomings. So technically it would still have passed. But it is pretty clear from all the votes that removing the Scottish votes would have had no impact at all on the result – much like any other bill, really.
Absolutely. While my own MP Iain McKenzie didn’t get to vote, he has made plenty of statements on devolution that give me great concern.
*Fist bump*
Oh God no, my brain couldn’t take it! 😛
HAH, brilliant!
That’s what I’m hoping, though I’m still going to do more Devo Files (if I can stand going through Iain McKenzie’s serpentine slitherings)
I’m definitely doing one for Mr McKenzie, but there are several others I particularly think are necessary to remove at all costs.
@Natasha @fred blogger
I think that Dan1973 was rather successful. I suspected right from the first that he was a variant of what, I think, is called a ” concern troll ” and I’m sorry I engaged with him at all. I’ll know better next time. He managed to monopolize the thread and caused a little dissent among posters. ( I was not pleased to be accused of not engaging in reasoned argument by yesindyref2.)
Considering that I was really quite angry at his attitude, which was obviously that of a convinced No who just wanted people to accept that his choice, based on narrow self interest, was perfectly valid. In the circumstances I thought that I had given a full and measured response though perhaps not as elegant a response as I would have liked. Next time I will obey my own instincts and not engage.
Great work, Taranaich. Kudos to you.
Ronnie is right. Dan’s not open to reason and not worth engaging with.
A tragic story, that shouldn’t happen on anyone. However where I disagree is that there a tragic cases all over the world, an independant Scotland would also have issues like this, and to pretend it would be a land of milk and honey where no one starves and no one is poor defies logic
Yet again the argument comes out that us no supporters heartless, uncaring folk who are unhappy with there lives. For you information I care for people and also am I carer for my elderly parents. How dare you assume moral superiority over us just cause in my opinion voting a different way from you was right here and now the best option. Seems to be a rule here that you play the man not the ball
I have read the wee blue book, some interesting stuff and the points come across well. However it is not fact, a bit of conjecture sure but to pass it off as the holy grail where no one is allowed to challenge is a bit far fetched.
Was actually playing football. I can’t sit by my keyboard all day and respond immediately
Not quite true fred, I said it was one of the issues. Admit I am not an economist, but then again since all economists seem to have different views I’m guessing it’s not an exact science.
My point is that the majority of no voters voted that way as they had concerns about interest rates etc. ignore it if you like it at the end of the day it’s the economic argument that won, or lost depending on what side your on, the referendum
@Dan 1973
I refer you to Mark Twain.
Perhaps posters might like to ask themselves why dan1973 is still bothering to post here, despite being subjected to incredibly rude abuse.
Answers on a postcard to “How to win Indy Ref 2”. First Prize for the winners, is Independence.
Perhaps also posters should ask themselves a simple basic question:
“Do I really want Independence for Scotland, or do I just like to beat up NO voters because our views are different – at this moment?”.
As far as displeasing fellow YES posters, I personally will trample over the feelings of any YES who gets in my way to get Independence, though I refuse to trample over NOes, as they have a democratic right to their views. And I expect that if I get in anyone else’s way to achieve our ultimate aim, they would trample all over me, just please remove the nails from the hob-nailed boots and try to avoid the delicate bits.
@yesindyref2
I appreciate your comments, the abuse I can handle and it backs up my original reason for posting which was that people voted no for honest reasons, not cause of a lack of intelligence or indeed as I have been accused of a will full neglect of the poor and starving.
I look forward to reading more of your comments as although we disagree at least it isn’t personal
@Smithie
Dan FFS, now i know this is TOTALLY out there, but keeping gas chambers would keep employment up yeh?, now either put up or shut up my friend, cos you aint bringing anything to a so called debate.
Mised this comment from last night, must have been posted when I was shouting at the telly when xfactor was on. godwins law in all it’s glory…..
@Dan1973
As I said in some other posting, one of my daughters voted NO. Her reason was uncertainty about mortage – she’s just making do and couldn’t afford a hike in interest rate. It’s not my style to convince people to vote YES, just not to believe the FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt) that came from BT. But I couldn’t guranteee the mortgage rate wouldn’t go up, just the same as I can’t now with a NO vote!
One of the things I noticed from NO posters, and in the flesh, was that NO voters would have been more open to thinking of a YES, if the YES campaign had just admitted there were risks and uncertainties. I don’t think YES had any choice but to present a good vision of Indepenent Scotland this time, but it’s something for next.
This time it was 45%, next time we need a load of the 55%. Come join us Dan ….
🙂
@Yesindyref2
I agree that the Yes campaign would have been better off hedging their their bets with some of their statements. Obviously they couldn’t come out and say everything was uncertain, they would have been destroyed for that and as you point out they wanted to present the best vision for Scotland, but saying that they would get everything they wanted and there was no uncertainly just makes people think “hang on a minute that smells of bull”! If they had admitted some doubt over a policy or two, for example say over Royal navy shipbuilding, an important issue but not up there with the main ones. A line like “there is a doubt that the UK would build warships here as they don’t build ships in foreign countries, we would need to negotiate to get the best deal for Scotland etc” then I think a lot of people would say fair enough and then they could have got away with some of the other statements that they passed off as facts. There are no certainties in life but the more the Yes campaign said that they would get everything they asked for the more it stretched their creditability.
I think it’s worthwhile pointing out that a lot of no supporters don’t fundamentally disagree with the vision of at some point an independent Scotland. Could Scotland be a successfully country yes it could. Darling got himself into an awful mess with that question in the debate – should have followed Cameron’s line yes it could, but not as successful as part of the Union. It might not be a line that a lot of people agree with but it allows the no campaign not to be painted as doing Scotland down.
The issue I feel is that what would the government of Scotland be like, and this is where I think work needs to be done. The Yes campaign seemed from an early outset to demonise Tories and anyone who voted Tory. Salmond in the 2nd debate took about 20 seconds before mentioning Thatcher and the poll tax, not exactly relevant to today’s electorate but good to fire up the base. There are a lot of Tories in Scotland, and there weren’t that many more who voted SNP at the last GE, so to totally ignore and alienate 15% of the electorate isn’t the way to start a campaign. f
Some advice for a future yes campaign, lock folk like Tommy Shreridan away in a room for the length of the campaign. He will never change anyone’s mind and just frightens the horses. A left wing socialist utopia where the rich get bled dry might be their vision of Scotland but it isn’t everyone’s. Elections get won from the centre ground, The SNP have shown this, not sure why the Yes Campaign didn’t follow this strategy
I’m not about to cross over, but a more inclusive campaign and a bit less of the personal politics from the yes side and there are votes up for grab 🙂
It’s that vision thing. Those of us who voted Yes had a clear vision of the potential for an independent Scotland to be a better place, and reasonable confidence in our ability to create that. I repeat, potential.
In general, the No voters lacked that vision. Either they believed it was unrealistic, or had no confidence in the ability of Scots to achieve the potential. This demand for everything to be “certain” and “guaranteed” under independence is part of that. Nothing about the future is guaranteed, either way. You have to look at the possibilities and the potential and choose on that basis.
Since we know that Scotland is almost obscenely rich, with control of our own resources, and that there’s nothing “special” about the Scottish character that makes Scots any less capable of running their own country than any other nation, I don’t see why it shouldn’t be possible to infect a fair number of the No voters with that vision.
The reason it’s not going to be possible is the abuse you heap on anyone having an alternative opinion
@Yesindyref2
I agree that the Yes campaign would have been better off hedging their their bets with some of their statements. Obviously they couldn’t come out and say everything was uncertain, they would have been destroyed for that and as you point out they wanted to present the best vision for Scotland, but saying that they would get everything they wanted and there was no uncertainly just makes people think “hang on a minute that smells of bull”! If they had admitted some doubt over a policy or two, for example say over Royal navy shipbuilding, an important issue but not up there with the main ones. A line like “there is a doubt that the UK would build warships here as they don’t build ships in foreign countries, we would need to negotiate to get the best deal for Scotland etc” then I think a lot of people would say fair enough and then they could have got away with some of the other statements that they passed off as facts. There are no certainties in life but the more the Yes campaign said that they would get everything they asked for the more it stretched their creditability.
I think it’s worthwhile pointing out that a lot of no supporters don’t fundamentally disagree with the vision of at some point an independent Scotland. Could Scotland be a successfully country yes it could. Darling got himself into an awful mess with that question in the debate – should have followed Cameron’s line yes it could, but not as successful as part of the Union. It might not be a line that a lot of people agree with but it allows the no campaign not to be painted as doing Scotland down.
The issue I feel is that what would the government of Scotland be like, and this is where I think work needs to be done. The Yes campaign seemed from an early outset to demonise Tories and anyone who voted Tory. Salmond in the 2nd debate took about 20 seconds before mentioning Thatcher and the poll tax, not exactly relevant to today’s electorate but good to fire up the base. There are a lot of Tories in Scotland, and there weren’t that many more who voted SNP at the last GE, so to totally ignore and alienate 15% of the electorate isn’t the way to start a campaign. f
Some advice for a future yes campaign, lock folk like Tommy Shreridan away in a room for the length of the campaign. He will never change anyone’s mind and just frightens the horses. A left wing socialist utopia where the rich get bled dry might be their vision of Scotland but it isn’t everyone’s. Elections get won from the centre ground, The SNP have shown this, not sure why the Yes Campaign didn’t follow this strategy
I’m not about to cross over, but a more inclusive campaign and a bit less of the personal politics from the yes side and there are votes up for grabs 🙂
@ Dan 1973
I’m posting to confirm I have been urging engagement with NO voters so we can understand better. I f@@@ed if I understand you . For most here everything was clear, but as you say ,with several challenges , Indy was doable.
I challenged the BT side with many issues and found nothing to convince me to Vote No.
Like many here tho’ I started from being a supporter of iScotland as we can easily afford it.
I posted many times that many make their mind up and seek out the info that supports their decision , and ignore info that does not support their decision . You sound as you may have reasoned some of the debate but may have benefited from the Revs Input ?
We all want iScotland above all else .
Hopefully you will see that WM does us no favours , and have not in my lifetime . You owe them nothing .
@ Dan 1973
What has Scotland got that rUK wants ? Fracking ! Water, wind , Food & drink exports etc etc etc infact the list is massive. There is even Enough Coal East of Peterhead to keep us all warm for 100s o years .
What has rUK got Scotland wants or needs ? Mmmmm ?
We did want our Share of Gold Reserves , Pa Broon selt em ! FFS !
Sorry can’t stop feeling so angry & annoyed about the total WM , MSM & BBC deceit .
@Tackety beets
One thing that we probably do want is the currency and the Bank of England as lender of last resort. Wouldn’t totally disagree with the list you have mentioned, although rUK does have its own supplies as well albeit not in the same quantity.
Selling the Gold reserves at the arse end of the market wasn’t Gordon’s finest hour.
With regards to your other post I think it’s part of human nature to seek out information that supports a particular point of view, it would be fair to say that both sides have done that. The challenge is to put the views across so that they would grab the attention of doubters or waverers. The reason for my first post on this site was to try and get over the point that vast majority of No voters weren’t duped or gullible, and if the Yes campaign continue to think this then 45% is probably the high point.
Apologies previous post seems to have duplicated
@Dan 1973
Yes I have had the “NO” conversation where they argued that the currency should have been sorted . ie CU as a done deal or whatever.
Clearly this was an issue for you .
No point in us going over it again , everyone will see it from their side.
I previously suggested/questioned if there was mileage in exploring the Naw issues and logging them to see what was the bigger issues and what can be done in the event of another Ref .
It’s easy to make suggestions ,it’s another finding time to do it . I ain’t got time .
Apart from CU etc , is it not the case that the Bias in Beeb, MSM etc had the biggest influence on your fellows view ? Ie they fired out neg messages on everything . Scaring on Pensions , mortgage rates , car Loans etc Only on one occasion was the Loans stuff challenged by BBC . I think Gordy Brew tried to establish how it would be so detrimental , unfortunately he accepted the waffle & in my opinion , maybe had someone on his earset ? Or he just let it go . Either way he severed his viewers badly by not getting to the truth .
Ach well we are where we are , sadly I had a prim school daughter very disappointed at 6.30am on 19th Sept , young ones will get over it . Me am jist fair scunnerred !
Dan the Man: The reason it’s not going to be possible is the abuse you heap on anyone having an alternative opinion.
The classic wild generality.
In your case, not even love and a casket of gold doubloons will alter your attitude, so less of the hypocrisy, please.
People really needed to inform themselves of the many consequences of a No vote.
Derek Bateman, today: On the effects of the TTIP deal which will affect the NHS in Scotland too…the comments are insightful too, many of us on this site had our eye on the big picture.
http://derekbateman.co.uk/2014/10/20/nurse-hurry/
Dr Phillapa Whitford, explaining in full the ramifications of this back in May this year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esV6pGo8UTI
@Grousebeater
The Classic wild Generality
Have you read some of the stuff that’s been posted? Let me recap
I have been told to fuck off and then fuck right off (although that was quite funny. General abuse like this is fine – usually means your opponent is struggling)
The more personal stuff includes –
Told to crawl back under my stone
Been accused of helping the state to starve and kill the poor
The obligatory Nazi comment was thrown in by the mention of Gas Chambers – still struggling to see the relevance in that comment. Probably made the poster feel better about themselves
My life being unfulfilled and sad as I don’t care for my fellow human beings
The usual general thick and gullible comments (to be expected though)
Mainly water off a ducks back, although the comment that I didn’t get care about people did get my riled for personal reasons. The only reason I bring it up is that you do get abuse if you give an alternative point of view, and to deny that is simply not credible. It might be a tactic to heap abuse on people so they response in kind and therefore can then be accused of getting personal. Not going to work this time.
To be accused of hypocrisy would be valid if I had entered into the abuse myself. So not quite sure you are correct. So let’s have less of the faux outrage.
Dan1973
I agree about the conservative angle, they weren’t targetted. The thing is that the big obstacle was Labour, and the unspeaking loyalty to the Labour party, and that had to be tackled head on, and the only way to do that was the socialist angle. They did that exceedingly well, and that’s why it got as far as 45%, and almost over the 50%. It’s probably destroyed Labour for a few years, as they really have beeen exposed as getting far far away from their worker roots. Sheridan helped that, and even Sillars though he was a double-edged sword.
Probably, sitting at 25% support for Independence to start with, nothing much different could have been done. Next time is different!
Anyway, what do you think about more powers? Do you not care – status quo, do you want just some, or do you want the full FFA / Devo-Max? Would you care if they weren’t delivered, or just some small parcel that didn’t mean much?
Dan: Let’s have less of the faux outrage…
Says the poster who’s squandered hours of his life denouncing imaginary enemies as a way of keeping a barren dispute going, and then says, “Water of a duck’s back”
Comical.
You’ve received many amiable posts discussing things with you. As I said, less of the hypocrisy.
Have you thought it might be more productive to go out and make friends rather than sit in a gloomy room getting more and more spotty, taunting imaginary foes? Even a visit to your local pub should help strike up a conversation at the bar. Good luck.
Yesindyref2
I think more powers is a sensible start, if it was an option on the ballot paper I would have voted for it. Don’t get me wrong I won’t be lying awake at night excited about extra tax raising powers but it will be interesting to see what agreement is cobbled together by Westminster. They have put themselves under some pressure to deliver to goods, so to save face they need to come out with something that is substantial.
Personally i think the no campaign should have held its nerve, the vow stuff was a bit desperate, bearing in mind new powers were already on their way and each party had outlined separate proposals for more power, the stakes were so high that maybe they thought that they had to do something.
Let’s see what they come up with. One thing I would like to ask is if Devo Max is delivered does that make independence more or less likely? My gut feeling is less likely as the Westminster bogeyman card would be less easy to play if substantial powers reside in Holyrood but I suppose a case could be made that if it’s a success then why not take the logical next step to full independence.
Also the English response to new powers up here is also going to mould the debate.. EVEL is not going to go away, English nationalism is on the rise so Westminster needs to be careful how to proceed.
Grousebeater
So all that abuse was imaginary then? and then you go and make more personal comments. Priceless!
Agreed I have receive amiable replies, pretty much from one person and we are having a debate with some good points coming across.
Not sure how many hours it takes you to write posts, maybe you should speed up a bit, as it doesn’t take me that long.
I had a good few hours in the pub on Friday and tonight it’s either watching mindless soaps or posting a few comments here, although with the level,of your contribution maybe I would get more sense watching Coronation street.
Skins a lot better now, thanks for asking
An interesting statsitic from an 89 person subsample of today’s Ashcroft poll is that 72% would vote next election opposed to 59% in England.
Devo Max is interesting, because it can work both ways. On the one hand as you say, Westminster is no longer the big bogeyman apart from wars, and there’s less to complain about like the bedroom tax. But on the other hand, the powers and revenues can be used to make Scotland a more “fair and just” society, and that can make us more confident in ourselves. It also means the next step is a much smaller one, even to the extent of having all those departments and ministries already set up in Scotland!
Speaking for myself I’ll be delighted to get Devo-Max, as it will make us a better country. But having been an Indy supporter for over 40 years, nothing to do with oil, I’ll want the full Independence until the day I die.
I’ve written a bit about Devo on yesindyref2.wordpress.com
Yesindyref2
Yesindyref2
Some good points on your website, don’t agree with all of them of course but you wouldn’t expect me to 🙂
Was listening to an ex American diplomat today on radio 4 who made a point I have been thinking about which is the possible in/out eu ref is the best trigger for a new Indy ref. My own opinion is that if there is a ref, and that’s not a given, then I think the Uk as a whole would vote to stay in. But if it’s an out and Scotland votes in, then the fun and games begin. On the other hand if it’s an in vote and England voted out then ukip would have a field day.
Has any polling been done on Scotland and an in out ref?
Dan: Not sure how many hours it takes to….
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Dan1973
By a curious coincidence there’s a new article on SCFF – Scottish Constitutional Futures Forum, which I had great hopes would become a central neutral or balanced force. But having announced its formation, the Herald then proceeded to delete any postings I mentioned it in, curious. A warning is that at least 3 of the authors having started neutral, became pro-indy later on.
http://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4411/Sionaidh-Douglas-Scott-British-Withdrawal-from-the-EU-an-Existential-Threat-to-the-United-Kingdom.aspx
I think polling before the ref showed Scotland more in favour of the EU than England, but not by as much of a margin as some would think. Curiously I found posters who would have voted YES, if a EU referendum had been promised, as they were against the EU but for Independence.
Yesindyref2
Interesting website, had a browse through the articles. Thought this one is interesting. Seems to paint a sombre view of the yes campaign going forward. From your previous posts I assume you don’t totally agree with this analysis?
http://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4330/Scott-Hames-No-Face-Paint-Beyond-This-Point-Pro-Independence-Politics-After-No.asp
Dan1973
No, I don’t, but it is a mood a fair few other indy supporters had in the couple of weeks follwing the NO vote. The mood is more upbeat and progressive now, but the aim of 2015 GE seems to be getting stronger, Labour are running scared, and it’s a democratic possibility in the light of an upsurge of UKIP as well, that means it’s very unlikely either of the two main UK partites will have an outright majority. Which leads to election after election as happened in the 70s, or compromises. And in that compromises is huge opportunity for pro-Indy MPs.
Here he’s technically incorrect: “an open challenge to the legitimacy of the UK”“. As far as I know nobody questionned the validity of the UK, just our desire to be part of it!
To be honest, I’m surprised – pleasantly – that there wasn’t a spate of suicides.