The less-deserving pro-independence website

Wings Over Scotland


A curious discrepancy

Posted on July 13, 2015 by

The Scottish Daily Mail today leads with a screaming banner headline announcing in its trademark style that, according to a poll it commissioned with Survation, Scots are massively opposed to any income tax rises when Holyrood eventually gets power over the rates under the new Scotland Bill.

mailtax

And the reason that’s weird is that we commissioned a poll on the very same thing just days before, and got a dramatically different answer.

tax1

Or at least, it was dramatically different in one respect.

Both polls – our Panelbase and the Mail’s one from Survation – found that roughly the same proportions of Scots (47% and 42% respectively) thought income tax should be kept the same. Both polls also found similar numbers in favour of reducing taxes – 29% from Panelbase, 26% from Survation.

The big divergence came about because the Survation poll offered people a “Don’t know” option. While the Panelbase sample came out 24% in favour of increasing taxes to pay for public services, Survation’s respondents split more than two-to-one (22% to 9%) in favour of fudging it.

We’re not exactly sure what that means. It’s perhaps worth noting that we specified an increase would be to fund public services, whereas (to the best of our knowledge, at least) Survation simply asked people if they wanted to pay more. It seems reasonable to surmise that that might partly explain the gulf in the responses.

But we couldn’t help wondering whether it was more to do with the fact that it’s simply increasingly unacceptable/unfashionable to espouse left-wing views in public at all any more. With an overwhelmingly right-wing media, and with Labour having almost entirely conceded the ideological agenda to the Tories, people are now embarrassed to take socialist positions even when, if forced to make a choice one way or the other, that’s what they’d want and support.

It’s something that’s concerned us for a while, and is probably Tony Blair’s true legacy to British politics. We’ll leave you to ponder that for a bit. We’ve hidden the knives.

Print Friendly

1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. 14 07 15 08:10

    A curious discrepancy | bustythewench

80 to “A curious discrepancy”

  1. Lanarkist says:

    Is this a poll taken entirely from D.Mail readers?

    Shocking to think that within a generation society has lost any sense of empathy!

    Media brainwashing almost complete.

  2. Steve Bowers says:

    Well the Daily Mail’s never been known to get something wrong so it must be you, and you’re a cybernat so that makes you doubly wrong, so hmm !

  3. Thepnr says:

    Tont Blair and his cohorts broke British politics or more specifically as you say left wing politics.

    It is not a legacy to be proud of after the struggles endured and fought for by the early socialists in the UK.

    The neo-liberal agenda has been hard at work over the last four decades and is reaping the fruits as it dismantles the welfare state and privatises everything in sight to benefit themselves.

    The working class have been royally screwed and even decent health care and further education may prove to be out of reach.

    There is very little dissent as there is no effective opposition from the left which goes to show just how widespread the cancer of neo-liberalism has spread.

    Only when they have devoured all the remaining wealth and begin to eat themselves might we see change. I don’t want to wait that long.

  4. heedtracker says:

    Probably its all just too adversarial. Maybe its why Labour’s now the red tory party, more inclusive, everyone singing same BBC, Daily Heil hymns of extreme UKOK creepiness, unions are bad, scroungers are evil, royals are good etc, just for a quieter life, all wrapped up in giant world famous, not nationalist, union jacks.

  5. Muscleguy says:

    That wasn’t true on the doorsteps here in Dundee during the referendum in my experience. Plenty of middle class people happy to pay more if it was spent on looking after those who needed looking after instead of illegal foreign wars and Trident.

  6. handclapping says:

    An even more curious discrepancy in the e-Mail headline

    Don’t put up tax, Scots tell Sturgeon with warning they have already been squeezed enough by the SNP

  7. Jim watson says:

    This has been a concern ever since Thatcher led the campaign to cut tax. It is smoke and mirrors as anyone with any sense knows. The preference of indirect over direct taxation put a greater burden on those least able to pay…and there has not really been any opposition to this from any party…

  8. Muscleguy says:

    I wonder if living in Bath is getting to you Rev. Time to move back up and re-engage perhaps.

  9. Wulls says:

    Interesting point about it being unfashionable to espouse left wing views. In recent days we have seen IDS suggest we save for our own sick pay. Osborne eliminate child allowance from kid 3, reduce the tax credit threshol, set the “living wage” less than the accepted minimum and apply serious concessions ton inheritance tax.

    These measures hit the most vulnerable in society and reward the richest, what do the MSM say ????
    Nothing. Nix. Zip. Nada. Fuck all.
    Media oversight my arse.

  10. auldmack says:

    Now let’s get real here, we were promised pre referendum lots of things but this if we delivered a NO result,they have yet to be delivered with that result.
    Now who in this world never mind just those people residing in the U.K. would start to decide what we should do with the latest promises proposed in this New Scotland Bill, wait until it is either delivered and even better implemented. “never count your chickens before they have hatched.

  11. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I wonder if living in Bath is getting to you Rev.”

    ??

  12. Dal Riata says:

    Glad you got in there first, Stu. Saw that today in the Mail and thought about your Panelbase poll. Got me into the, ‘Haw, wait a wee minute here..’ mode. Was going to write a comment, but, FFS, where to start…!

    It’s the Mail, as near as, if not at the top of the heap of the world’s biggest liars, misinformationists and fearmongers, so if they come out with a screaming headline – believe the opposite – especially when they are ‘reporting’ on Scotland and the SNP.

  13. douglas malone says:

    I would gladly pay more tax if it was going to improve living conditions and services such as roads, transport, and nhs in Scotland

  14. heedtracker says:

    It can be a tad confusing watching the red tory party in action though. So on the one hand this week already, Labour massive boost for a super rich bloke like Gideon Osborne robs the poor to give to the rich and BBC love Labour for it

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33497441

    Whilst on t’other hand SLab activists rage at SNP for not hiking council tax in Scotland.

    https://twitter.com/DrScottThinks is red tory UKOK unionism where all that matters to SLab is Scotland never ever runs Scotland but that’s just in one of their regions.

    So its still puzzling.

    Maybe we should invent a new political colour for Lab and SLab, blue and red mixed is purple, vote Purple SLab?

    Could work. “We’ll keep the purple flag flying here… Up the idle rich!”

  15. michael diamond says:

    I am not annoyed anymore, just raging at the unchallenged lies of these scum in the msm.

  16. caz-m says:

    Regarding Police Scotland and that tragic call that wasn’t logged.

    All out attack on the Scottish Government by our Unionist broadcasters (BBC Scotland/STV), plus, Scottish Unionist politicians and no doubt, by all Unionist newspapers tomorrow.

    It was Nicola Sturgeon’s fault and she is also responsible for every tragedy that has fallen on the world, ever since she was elected leader of the outlawed, Scottish Cybernat Party.

  17. JBS says:

    Poor Princess Charlotte. It appears she’s been banished to the Phantom Zone, like General Zod.

  18. handclapping says:

    As to what to do with the tax rate once we have control, put it up and piss everybody who doesn’t believe in indy off to rUK and then call Ref2 or put it down and shew all the doubters that we are rich enough already. The trouble with down is that every carpetbagger and their dog would be moving here making Ref2 iffy.

  19. Oneironaut says:

    @Lanarkist
    “Is this a poll taken entirely from D.Mail readers?

    Shocking to think that within a generation society has lost any sense of empathy!

    Media brainwashing almost complete.”

    “Almost” complete?

    Pretty much all my remaining faith in humanity was destroyed on the 19th of September last year. And every time I help out at a street stall, I encounter members of the public who erode it even further.

    Sometimes I struggle to find a reason why I should even bother…

  20. Diane says:

    Here’s the question we should be asking….what kind of country do we want to have? One where every citizen is valued enough to be enabled to live with dignity or one where only the rich matter and it’s fine for the government to keep them sweet with tax breaks that are paid for by pushing children, families and disabled people into absolute poverty?

  21. Dal Riata says:

    If you descend further into the well of poison that is the Scottish (ROFL!) Daily Mail, there on page 12 is a yet another anti-SNP article by their I’m-employed-to-write-anti-Scottish-independence-and-SNP-articles-on-a-daily-basis trollmeister A. Roden (with a silent ‘t’ ending – allegedly).

    The article is entitled, ‘EVEL plans a ‘bigger risk’ to UK than Salmond’. Okaaay, riiiight. An Alex Salmond accused headline? That’s just sooooo last year! Let’s have a look at that under the headline, then…

    Ah. It turns out to be related to a quote “in an interview with a Sunday newspaper” from “former Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael”.

    “He [Alistair Carmichael] said: ‘There’s an arguable case that if he [David Cameron] continues down this path you will see David Cameron become a bigger threat to the UK than Alex Salmond. A year ago we had to make the case for the United Kingdom in Scotland, now we need to make the case across the whole UK.’

    So, then, according to he who used his position to lie and attempt to smear the Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon in memo-gate, Alex Salmond is *still* a “threat” to the UK, even though he is now the MP for Gordon rather than the First Minister of Scotland…!? Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Pathetic buffoonery from the Lib Dems last MP standing in Scotland – just!

    And, “last year we had to make the case for the United Kingdom in Scotland”… That’ll be the royal “we”, then, yes Alistair? Sorry, what’s that you’re saying… something about “Rhona”, “me” and “help”…?

  22. Elaine says:

    Scots are certainly against tax increases. Scots are not more left wing particularly, some are but most are small ‘c’ conservatives. Not in a right wing Tory way, in a small town way. They don’t read Wings and they aren’t typified by enlightened Facebook posts, contrary to the prevalent RIC image. Most politically silent Scots know that to be a fringe, which doesn’t represent them.

  23. geeo says:

    Off skew a bit, but if this new compulsory Living Wage is really a living wage, then presumably the minimum wage currently being paid, will continue ?

    How someone help pull that zip up my back please……

  24. HandandShrimp says:

    I think I would trust the Wings poll over anything the Daily Hate says.

    However, I see that the SNP group are going to oppose the fox hunting amendment so the Hate will drop all this and get straight back onto the SNPbad theme

  25. mike cassidy says:

    My long running crack about Blair and Brown turning Labour into a Tory Tribute Band is gradually becoming less of a joke and more an accurate description of a slowly spreading poison.

    But when you can find a laugh, don’t waste it. Like here

    http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2015/794-we-just-publish-the-position-of-the-british-government-edward-snowden-the-sunday-times-and-the-death-of-journalism.html

    with Murdoch’s Minions complaining about being exposed as a government mouthpiece.

  26. Luigi says:

    The SNP are to go against their principle and oppose the English fox hunting amendment. The Tory press are about to go apeshit.

    Brace yourselves.

  27. Dal Riata says:

    Regarding that quote in the Mail by Alistair Carmichael taken from “an interview with a Sunday newspaper”, that Sunday newspaper [sic] is noted as being the Sunday Post.

    Futher excerpts include:

    “… admitting he was responsible for leaking a memo that falsely claimed Nicola Sturgeon wanted David Cameron to win the election, he’s spoken about the toll his “mistake” has taken on his family.

    He said: “It’s a difficult time but it’s something we’re just having to deal with.

    “I’ve said I made a mistake, I apologised, but I hope people will judge me not just on one mistake but on 14 years’ work in parliament.””

    Awww, sad story and all that. Poor me. ‘Just one mistake’, that’s all. It’s no’ fair. Waah!

    Pathetic. Caught with your fingers in the till – It wiznae me… honest! Your political career will be over ASAP, Carmichael. The people have made the decision, and yer tea’s oot!

    “…He added: “I’m getting on and doing the job which is what I’ve been doing this last week.”

    Yeah, let’s all just move on, eh Alistair? No chance. Your time in court is coming.

    “… Added Carmichael: “The Scottish lion at Westminster has roared it was just to be found on the Lib Dem benches rather than amongst the nationalists.””

    Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! LOL! ROFL! ROFLMAO!

    A bloody comedian as well as a grade-one liar? That’s good Al! It means you’ll have something to fall back on when you get dragged away from the Westmister trough, sooner than you expected, eh.

    ““What is it people expect of Scottish MPs at Westminster? If what they are looking for is excitable rhetoric they’ll get that by the bucketload from the SNP but I’ve demonstrated that by focusing on the job rather than the rhetoric you can achieve a lot more.””

    Al, Al, come on! I’ll be needing a full-time surgeon to sew my sides back up if you keep this up. But, hey, this comedy stuff, Al, your a fricking natural!

    “…He was widely tipped to be sacked as Scottish Secretary last autumn, but in the end Nick Clegg didn’t rejig his team.

    Asked if he’d have been spared a lot of pain if Clegg had booted him Carmichael took a long pause and said: “That’s not the way to look at it.

    “I had a place at the heart of British and Scottish politics at an absolutely crucial time.

    “I don’t regret one second of it.”

    FFS, Al, even Sinatra had a few regrets and you don’t have any at all? Well, Al, you’ve certainly done it your way…

    Let’s hear it now Alistair:

    ‘And now the end is near, and so I face the final curtain…‘

    http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/politics/westminster/alistair-carmichael-still-fighting-despite-his-mistake-1.889445

  28. Luigi says:

    I hope everyone has grown a thick skin and become desensitized to all the anti-Scottish abuse from the Tory press.

    It’s about to be ramped up a couple of levels.

  29. Grouse Beater says:

    Dal Riata: An Alex Salmond accused headline? That’s just sooooo last year!

    Good post. Enjoyed that line in particular. 🙂

    https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/07/12/a-land-fit-for-heroes/

  30. Dr Jim says:

    All those who don’t want to pay more tax stand over there

    How about that, or ,

    All golf bats to be handed in to your local foodbank for charity, or ,

    Ach where’s ma uniform

    What can you do I ask you

  31. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @caz-m (6.54) –

    re The MSM handling of this horror story – this afternoon, driving home, I actually switched the radio OFF when Willie Rennie turned up and started with his usual pish. Just can’t take it any more.

    If that man is circumcised then they threw away the wrong bit. It’s hard to believe that the GE proved to be such an effective tsunami in Scotland, and yet this total ringpiece survived it all. The Norman Wisdom of Scottish political life cannot be shifted, and will not STFU.

  32. HandandShrimp says:

    Luigi

    I think it will be mixed. It is a free vote and the other parties wanted the SNP to vote against.

    The Telegraph and Mail will go purple but sod them. Plenty of English MPs fell over themselves to vote down SNP amendments to the Scotland Bill so the gloves are off.

  33. Training Day says:

    Is Labour backing not opposing the fox hunting Bill?

  34. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Scots are certainly against tax increases”

    And also against tax cuts.

  35. jock mcdonnell says:

    OT, can I just go back to the EU thing, does anyone here really believe the EU is worse for Scotland than the UK ?
    We can’t really address any problems properly until we assert our statehood.
    Independence first, eyes on the prize. We can choose & choose again our international allegiances as the future unfolds. That is after all the purpose & power of Independence.

  36. Saorstat says:

    Ian Brotherhood 9.12pm

    Willie Rennie can’t be circumcised as there is no end to that p***k!

  37. IvMoz says:

    I am so chuffed that the SNP will vote against the Fox hunting proposals. Sod not voting on English only matters, some issues transcend party politics & are based on pure morals.

    Fox hunting is cruel. I hope that the Scottish Government now re-visits their fox hunting legislation, not just to reduce the number of dogs to two, but to abolish the hunts altogether. Failure to adhere to be subject to the whole weight of the law.

  38. Ian Brotherhood says:

    What’s happening in Greece?

    What’s going to happen to us if we don’t get ourselves out of this putrid BTUKOK charade?

    Posting this again in the slim hope that it will be seen by someone for the first time.

    George Carlin, ‘The American Dream’ –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsL6mKxtOlQ

  39. Ken500 says:

    There would be enough money in Scotland to pay for Scotland’s needs if Westminster and the UK Treasury would butt out. Scotland raises enough for all it’s need and could adjust it’s spending to be in Surplus.

    Scotland raises £54Billion + in taxes and spends £30Billion Block Grant, £16Billion
    Pensions/Benefits, £4Billion Defence. = £50. £54 – £50 = £4Billion.

    Taxes raised in the UK = £466 Billion. Taxes raised in the rest of the UK £466 – £54Billion =£412Billion. Less (pro rata) than taxes raised in Scotland .The rest of the UK borrows and spends £90Billion more.= £502Billion.

    Westminster passes on £9Billion on to Scotland it’s debt not borrowed or spent in Scotland (fraud)

    Total pop in the UK 62Million Total In Scotland 5.2Billion (approx 1/12)
    Divide £412Billion by 11 = £39Billion. Scotland (1) raises £54Billion

    Scotland would have enough for all it’s services, could raise more by a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink, a tax on non productive land, a higher band for council tax on higher rated homes, cut Trident/illegal wars tax evasion. Scotland would be in surplus. It always has been.

    The rest of the UK doesn’t raise enough in taxes because of tax cuts, tax evasions, Trident/illegalwars, and borrows more to cover it’s expenditure.

    It will be the rest of the UK that should raise more in taxes and spend less to cover it’s books. A total fraud.

    It is not Scotland that would need to raise taxes, but the rest of the UK. Westminster has been defrauding Scotland.

    It makes Scotland which should be richer, poorer and the rest of the UK which should be poorer, richer. (pro rata)

    The Daily Mail prints nonsense and manipulates Polls. The piper calls the tune.

  40. Geoff Huijer says:

    Q: Would you like to pay more tax?

    A: Er… no thanks.

    ———

    Q: Would you like to pay more tax if it went to public services?

    A: Wouldn’t mind at all. Go for it.*

    * Disclaimer: if asked by Tory or Labour I don’t believe
    they would put it towards public services.

  41. Ken500 says:

    Stop Press

    ‘Mixed doubles for Hugh Grant and Mother of his love child’ Nonsense.

    Daily Mail tax evader. A waster paper.

  42. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Ian Brotherhood.

    “If that man is circumcised then they threw away the wrong bit”

    LOL! The version I know is, “When that guy was born, they made the mistake of confusing the afterbirth with the bairn.”

    8=)

  43. Gary45% says:

    I thought the Daily Plamph only had big pictures as headlines.

    Oops nearly forgot and SNP baaaaad.

  44. Ken500 says:

    Stephen House was originally appointed in Scotland by a Unionist (LibDem?) Local Authority.

  45. Ken500 says:

    ‘Superb china plate for every reader’

    Says it all. The multimillionaire and the starving of the vulnerable. They should hang their head in shame.

  46. CameronB Brodie says:

    “I wonder if living in Bath is getting to you Rev.”

    More like the barrow loads of fancy bears the crowdfunding has supported. 😉

    Tam, you might be right about Scotland being held back by ingrained Calvinism. 🙂

  47. Chic McGregor says:

    @handclapping
    “An even more curious discrepancy in the e-Mail headline

    Don’t put up tax, Scots tell Sturgeon with warning they have already been squeezed enough by the SNP”

    “Curious”? That is positively bizarre.

    Unless you count free prescriptions, free tuition fees, frozen poll tax, compensation for bedroom tax and free bus passes as ‘squeezing’ (albeit with a negative coefficient).

  48. Bill Fraser says:

    There.s little doubt the questions to the people were loaded in favor of negative bias such do you really want to pay more tax etc.

  49. I’m still pretty angry about the budget … but tonight my anger at Labour is greater still.

    I’ll cover that tomorrow. For now …

    http://www.commentisntfree.com/into-the-corner/

    You ever seen what happens to an animal when it’s cornered?

    A whole lot of people in this country feel like that tonight.

  50. Luigi says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    13 July, 2015 at 9:14 pm

    Luigi

    I think it will be mixed. It is a free vote and the other parties wanted the SNP to vote against.

    The Telegraph and Mail will go purple but sod them. Plenty of English MPs fell over themselves to vote down SNP amendments to the Scotland Bill so the gloves are off.

    One good thing I suppose is that it shuts up the trolls who keep asking what is the point of 56 SNP MPs. They are starting to bite!

  51. Luigi says:

    It would be hilarious if the SNP MPs stayed away during the “English” debate on fox hunting and then duly trooped in to vote against the amendment. What goes around… 🙂

  52. Alistair says:

    The London media waking up to the reality that an increase in income tax in Scotland relative to England is the surest way to send many of those proud No voters (easily bought and sold) running south, whilst dramatically slowing the move north of No sympathisers. The 400,000 has already halved and this would speed it up. Next referendum franchise – person must pay income tax in Scotland to vote….

  53. Legerwood says:

    On the fox hunting issue I think the SNP group in Westminster should have allowed its MPs a free vote on the issue or followed its usual practice of abstaining on legislation that applies only to England (and Wales?).

    That way they would not end up as the patsy for either the Tories or Labour. I would not put it past the latter to abstain at the last minute – remember the fracking debate in HoC. By inveigling the SNP into supporting Labour on this issue it undermines the SNP position on EVEL and I would not put it past Labour to think that is a bigger prize than a hunting bill. Or am I being paranoid about Labour and its intentions where the SNP are concerned.

    Labour will jettison any principal if it thinks it would lead to scoring points over the SNP in Holyrood and Westminster.

  54. frogesque says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    13 July, 2015 at 8:52 pm
    I think I would trust the Wings poll over anything the Daily Hate says.

    However, I see that the SNP group are going to oppose the fox hunting amendment so the Hate will drop all this and get straight back onto the SNPbad theme

    Aye, just heard this on the news, the fox is surely in the hen coup!

    Expect DM/Torygraph fits of apoplexy!

  55. Derek Henry says:

    Lets nail this myth once and for all….

    If anyone wants to say that taxes fund goverment spending then they have to take this apart below.

    A simple example helps reinforce these points. Suppose the economy is populated by two people, one being government and the other deemed to be the (non-government) sector.

    If the government runs a balanced budget (spends 100 pounds and taxes 100 pounds) then non goverment accumulation of fiat currency (savings) is zero in that period and the private budget is also balanced.

    Say the government spends 120 and taxes remain at 100, then non govermental sector saving is 20 pounds which can accumulate as financial assets. The corresponding 20 pound notes have been issued by the government to cover its additional expenses.

    The most important part to remember is the government deficit of 20 is exactly the private savings of 20.

    Now if government continued in this vein, accumulated non govermental savings would equal the cumulative budget deficits. However, should government decide to run a surplus (say spend 80 and tax 100) then the private sector would owe the government a net tax payment of 20 pounds and would need to use their savings or borrow to get the needed funds to meet their tax liabilities.

    The cold hard truth is they can’t it’s impossible. The surplus scenario beats them. As they are brainwashed to always think in terms of deficts and a gold standard. The propaganda is relentless who can blame them. I fell for it for over 43 years.

    But now I know without question that taxes do not fund goverment spending.

    This is key..

    However, should government decide to run a surplus (say spend 80 and tax 100) then the non govermental sector would owe the government a net tax payment of 20 dollars overall.

    This is an accounting fact.

    What happens if this continues for 20 years ?

    How on earth is taxes funding goverment spending?

    It clearly isn’t and impossible.

  56. Grouse Beater says:

    the fox is surely in the hen coup!

    I see the SNP more like the running of the bulls in Spain – charging down streets and alleys into the bullring scattering unionists in all directions.

  57. CameronB Brodie says:

    Wish I could spot those polywhatsits. Always been a weakness. BEERS. 😉

  58. Derek Henry says:

    Remember the goverment can spend £80 for as long as it likes. It is not revenue constrained today we don’t need gold.

    It is created out of nothing from nothing.

    It is very easy to see from this two person example above what is happening in reality.

    a) The goverment spends £80 for 20 years

    b) The private sector spends £100 for 20 years in tax liabilities

    c) Which means the private sector is in debt for £20 x 20 years – £400 in debt

    In a gold standard economy the truth is the goverment spending was not funded by taxes ( impossible) it was funded by private debt up to the tune of £400.

    Ring any bells ?

    Today in our sovereign fiat currency neither the taxes ( impossible) nor the private debt of £400 funded goverment spending. The goverment could spend £80 for as long as it likes it was created out of nothing from nothing.

    Now you can talk about inflation and how the debt is serviced until the cows come home. They are completely different issues that are easily resolved.

    However, it will not change the simple fact that in both cases taxes did not fund goverment spending.

    Which is why the national debt is just the outstanding public debt held by the non-government sector (with some held by the central bank). It is a STOCK not a FLOW and reflects the wealth of the non-government sector held in this form. The funds from deficit spending end up as non goverment sector savings and assets.

    The words budget deficit should be renamed to what it actually is

    The national wealth

    http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2014/01/diagrams-dollars-modern-money-illustrated-part-2.html

  59. Derek Henry says:

    Now let’s build a national currency from scratch. Imagine a new country with a newly announced currency. No one has any. Then the government proclaims, for example, that there will be a property tax. Well, how can it be paid? It can’t, until after the government starts spending.

    Only after the government spends its new currency does the population have the funds to pay the tax.To repeat: the funds to pay taxes, from inception, come from government spending (or lending). Where else can they come from?

    Let’s call our new currency “the crown,” and let’s assume the government levies this tax for the further purpose of raising an army, and offers jobs to soldiers who are paid in “crowns.” Suddenly, a lot of people who own property now need to get crowns, and many of them won’t want to get crowns directly from the government by serving as soldiers. So they start offering their goods and services for sale in exchange for the new crowns they need and want, hoping to get these crowns without having to join the army.

    Other people now see many things for sale they would like to have – clothing and all kinds of services like haircuts, medical services and many other services. The sellers of these goods and services want to receive crowns to avoid having to join the army to get the money they need to pay their taxes. The fact that all these things are being offered for sale in exchange for crowns makes some other people join the army to get the money needed to buy some of those goods and services.

    In fact, prices will adjust until as many soldiers as the government wants are enticed to join the army. Because until that happens, there won’t be enough crowns spent by the government to allow the taxpayers to pay all of their taxes, and those needing the crowns, who don’t want to go into the army, will cut the prices of their goods and services as much as they have to in order to get them sold, or else throw in the towel and join the army themselves.

    The following is not merely a theoretical concept. It’s exactly what happened in Africa in the 1800’s, when the British established colonies there to grow crops. The British offered jobs to the local population, but none of them were interested in earning British coins. So the British placed a “hut tax” on all of their dwellings, payable only in British coins. Suddenly, the area was “monetized,” as everyone now needed British coins, and the local population started offering things for sale, as well as their labour, to get the needed coins. The British could then hire them and pay them in British coins to work the fields and grow their crops.

  60. Derek Henry says:

    @Ken500

    I’m sorry but that’s rubbish.

    You are a fical Conservative.

    Repeat after me

    “We no longer work from a gold standard”

    If Scotland had its own central bank and issued its own currency with a floating exchange rate the last thing it would ever want to do is balance the budget or run a surplus.

    It would be economic suicide.

  61. Effijy says:

    Breaking news- Traffic chaos at Carlisle as English Foxes are
    forcing open Trucks heading into Scotland.

    Their spokesman, a Fox named Basil, suggested that their own country was now a war zone, and their only hope of living in a civilized country was to apply for refugee status in Gretna.

    Hounded out of their own country by a shower of Tory Hunts.

  62. Derek Henry says:

    What makes it worse if not frightening is this. In the terms of the accounting facts above.In the simple model.

    IF The hundreds of billlions of pounds in the tax havans were forced to be paid. Let’s say Osborne got up tommorrow and said these have to be paid or the avoiders will be shot.

    What scenario in the model above will be reached ?

    a) A balanced budget ? – If the government runs a balanced budget (spends 100 pounds and taxes 100 pounds) then private accumulation of fiat currency (savings) is zero in that period and the private budget is also balanced.

    Absolute nightmare for everyone overall as the non govermental sector can’t save. Where on earth will the non govermental sector get the currency to save from ?

    Or

    b) A surplus ?- However, should government decide to run a surplus (say spend 80 and tax 100) then the private sector would owe the government a net tax payment of 20 pounds and would need to sell something back to the government to get the needed funds.

    An even worse nightmare we would all have to use our savings or borrow to meet our tax liabilities.

    This is what people who want the tax collected from tax havans want to achieve. Either a balanced budget or a surplus because that’s what would happen if the hundreds of £billions were collected. They want to balance the gold standard budget for Osborne. Insanity.

    The only option without question is

    c) A deficit – Say the government spends 120 and taxes remain at 100, then private sector is saving is 20 pounds which can accumulate as financial assets.

    This is the only option that increases everybodys wealth and creates aggregate demand.

  63. Chic McGregor says:

    Derek
    Taxes used to be in things like sacks of meal and other produce.

    Soldiers of the first global empire (Roman) were paid in salt (that is where the term salary comes from).

    Money began as a convenience to the alternative of barter but taxes and military payment preceded its invention.

  64. Derek Henry says:

    Fiscal conservatives see inflation everywhere it is their bogyman.

    It’s just a lie to stop the goverment from creating currency out of nothing from nothing so they can shrink the state and privatise.They brainwash the public to convince them we work from a gold standard.

    Japan and China have spent gazillions no inflation in sight

    USA trilions no inflation in sight

    The EU trillions no inflation in sight

    UK hundreds of billions on wars and QE not a jot of inflation.

    Zimbabwe for hyperventilators 101

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=3773

    Japan with it’s 250% of debt to GDP and 20% deficits to GDP. The fiscal Conservatives can’t explain the gold standard household balanced budget zoomers had Japan bankrupt 30 years still hasn’t happened.

    Why ?

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=28918

  65. Wee Alex says:

    Let’s get down to basics.

    Police Scotland came about to avoid serious cuts if they remained as multiple forces. The SNP Government took the best option available.

    The SNP Government are well on the way to combining NHS and Social Work, again to make efficiency savings on the back of cuts to its budget.

    It has diverted funds to mitigate the impact of the Bedroom Tax. There is little slack left folowing Westminster imposed cuts to its budget.

    it can’t continue, you can only make so many efficiency savings. Tax increases might be the only way to protect essential services.

    The Tory Budget is about to devastate the quality of life for low income families. The right wing press has demonised people at the bottom despite them being “hard working families”.

    Labour, aka, Harriet Harmon and the Labour leadership contenders, with one exception, has give up on the poor and sick in favour of middle class votes and is pandering to the right wing press.

    Labour are at the crossroads and the outcome of the leadership contest will decide if it has a future.

    They need to grow a pair. If they don’t, the rest of the UK is heading the way of the USA, two ultra right wing parties, the Democrats being the lesser of two evils.

    Is that really the future they want?

  66. ScottieDog says:

    @Derek Henry
    “The goverment could spend £80 for as long as it likes it was created out of nothing from nothing.”

    Sorry Derek, I’m not really following the thrust of the post. Just to be clear are you saying that the govt creates the money?

    If so, yes they could but they don’t. They issue gilts (IOUs), bought on the stock market in pensions etc. so we buy up our own national debt and have to pay it down..

    The main creators of money in our economy are commercial banks. They create 97% of all money in our economy – issued as debt. The money in your bank account is someone’s debt. The other 3% is issued by seniorage (notes and coins) and sold at face value by the state with the proceeds going to the treasury.

    It’s late and I haven’t scanned through all of your posts but just wanted to be clear about

  67. Chic McGregor says:

    Derek
    Japan has a high debt but had the trade balance surplus to support it, until Fukushima happened when they went into trade deficit for the first time in the last 5 decades.

    So yes, they are in trouble, now, but these things take time to fully manifest themselves.

    But it is rapidly recovering on its trade balance.

    Fiat currency and printing of money can only stave things off for a few decades, useful in creating a breathing space which if properly used can rectify underlying trade deficits.

    If that is not done, then barring the use of a big reset button i.e. World War, then those countries which failed to do so are FCUK’d.

  68. Elaine says:

    “And also against tax cuts.”

    Yes, I don’t think they are crying out for tax cuts.

  69. Derek Henry says:

    @Scottiedog

    HM Treasury when it spends instructs the BOE to credit current accounts.

    Here is the model here

    The transactions between HM Treasury, the BOE and the commercial banks are horizontal transactions these are Stocks.

    The transactions between the Commercial banks and the non govermental sector are vertical transactions these are currency flows.

    To get a full picture I Suggest you read these

    Deficit spending 101 – Part 1

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=332

    Deficit spending part – part 2

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=352

    Deficit spending part – part 3

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=381

  70. James says:

    The vasy majority (90+%) of the money supply here is made by BANKS, not the government. This money is created from thin air. Remember this when you’re being told about lack of money or limits to it, etc. It is entirely a choice of those in power to allow the banks and financial industry elites to leech off and hold on to so much of the money and wealth in turn.

    Every time someone gets a loan or mortgage from a bank, etc. it means more money production as the money for that loan is produced from thin air. There’s no physical backing for it and there’s no withdrawl from some other pile of money, be it paper or electronic, to cover it. It is new production. The banks therefore have vastly more control over the economy and money supply – absolutely vital and incredibly powerful levers for directing all our futures and starving or feeding business and the economy – than the government has and this happens not because it must, but because those in power choose to allow it.

    Only a tiny percentage of all the money is allowed to trickle or be invested into the non-financial industy now, as so much is tied up into the parasitic and self-serving financial industry. All the real businesses and the majority of individuals have to live and thrive on scraps.

  71. Derek Henry says:

    @ Chic

    So you never read the link I gave you that said why ?

    Nothing to do with their trade balance.

    Exports are a real cost imports are a benifit

    http://www.3spoken.co.uk/search/label/imports

    In other words, going to work to produce real goods and
    services to export for someone else to consume does you no
    economic good at all, unless you get to import and consume
    the real goods and services others produce in return.

    Put more succinctly:

    The real wealth of a nation is all it produces and
    keeps for itself, plus all it imports, minus what it must export.

  72. Derek Henry says:

    Now we are talking James.

    The Bank Of England has said so many times

    Banks are not intermediaries of loanable funds – and why this matters and they have videos on their website

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=31063

  73. Derek Henry says:

    Also they also destroy the money multiplier

    Money multiplier and other myths

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=1623

    That’s the problem with Harvard and MIT they export economic guff around the world on purpose to further the neoliberal agenda.

    When countries send their brightest to be trained there.

  74. Derek Henry says:

    @James

    And that’s why the fiscal Conservatives are trying to ban deficits.

    It stops the goverment from creating currency from nothing.

    They replaced it with interest rates which was a complete disaster for everyone apart from the 1%

    When goverments created currency from nothing between 1945 – 1980 we had full employment. Our deficit was the size that supported full employment.

    Now with interest rates being used to create full employment we’ve never had it for 40 years. What we’ve had is a pool of unemployed kept there on purpose to drive down wages and attack workers conditions.

    In short the currency creation process has been hijacked just like our parliament and just like the BBC. They have created an asset stripping machine.

    If the goverment is stopped from creating currency from thin air the commercial banks will do it instead for their pals.And take every asset the country has.

    All under the guise of brainwashing the public we work from a gold standard.

  75. scottieDog says:

    @Derek
    Ahhh yes MMT. Think you may be confused with what bill Mitchell is suggesting should happen and what currently happens.

    I’m in agreement with the creation of sovereign money injected into the economy. Indeed there is actually no reason for a national debt. Yes the BOE have put forward some really good info and I’m not sure if you’re aware but the subject of money creation was debated in parliament back in 2014.

    http://positivemoney.org/2014/11/press-release-uk-parliament-debated-money-creation-first-time-170-years/

  76. Christian Schmidt says:

    Short of advocating the murder of new-borns, the SNP can put into their manifesto whatever they want, and still win.

    And after the election everything they have put into their manifesto will be deemed to be a winner, because they won.

    So I just hope they put a tax rise into it, just to slay that dragon. It would also be good for the SNP as they would then have complete freedom to raise *or lower* it in the future as they see fit, because they can then point out they one election without increasing tax (2011) and one with it (2016) and thus always know what’s best at each moment in time.

  77. Clootie says:

    …we need a question on WHY we would raise taxes. I am more than happy to pay extra to help people but object to funding WARs and WMD that hurt people.

    Nobody wants to pay more tax to fund bankers and promote force projection abroad. We need to link the spend question to the tax raising question.

    Of course Independence would have resolved this issue.

  78. Derek Henry says:

    @Scottie dog

    Yes I saw that we need more of it.

    The public need to learn it more than the politicians if the public learned it there would be riots.

    I’m not confused at all I know full well what goes on now now compared with the reality and what we could do.

    Rev has the perfect platform for it.

    1 day a week should be used for money creation on this site to educate the Scottish public about the reality.

    Then the Scottish currency question would be resolved.

  79. Andy-B says:

    I have a hard time finding anything credible the Daily Mail prints, due to its standing during the Scottish referendum.

    So I’ll just leave it there.



Comment - new users please read this page first for commenting rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use the live preview box. Include paragraph breaks or I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




↑ Top