The not-so-Specials
Posted on
October 28, 2016 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Hmm.
Anyone missing?
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28 10 16 16:57
The not-so-Specials | speymouth
Ignored
D’ye think that’s resignation? In that they now just assume it’s an eventuality we’ll bugger off?
My report from Gibraltar published tonight. As far as they know they have not been given any special status, or get out of Spanish jail card.
The region that is northern Britain, silly.
‘Anyone missing?’
Do you mean London? 😛
Obviously by its ommission, Scotland will be at the top of the agenda..
There appears to be a dirty great Tartan Elephant in the room.
Unless it is already conceded by the EU that Scotland will be an Independent country?? 🙂
Presumably, like the rest of the EU, Barnier is taking it as read that Scotland will not be part of the UK when it comes to setting up any “special situations”.
Either that or politics.eu is at it.
First who the fuck is “Barnier” and what is his position?
Second, it appears Scotland has no status of any type.
Isle of Man?, no wait – the Isle of Wight
Am I getting warmer?
Channel Islands, nope it was bigger than that, perhaps the bit just north of England, now what’s it called? Maybe our friend fluffy Mundell can say
SCOTLAND! KNOW YOUR PLACE!
(Answers on a postcard please…)
Wouldn’t it be great if Bernier has Scotland on an ‘extra-special situation’ as we are on a fast track to acceptance? The Week, writing about Bernier, said it was hard to think of a more anti-British (but I think we know they mean English) negotiator.
So, just so I’m clear about this, “Special situations” covers Gibraltar and Northern Ireland, both voted ‘Remain’, but the other part of the UK that also voted by a large margin to Remain is not ‘Special’?
Guess they just love us so much they can’t bear to be without OUR RESOURCES!
Or am I just being paranoid?
I was hoping to feel special…just once
Rev wrote:
“Anyone missing?”
Where’s Wally?
I think he is assuming we will still be in the EU under our own steam
🙂
Apart from a few frothing Unionist pundits, does anyone really honestly believe the Brexit deal will be adequate to prevent IndyRef2? And the outcome of that, given by then the Brexit deal will look naff, is very likely to be Indy.
That’s the way it gets portrayed in the media outside UKOKland.
Scottish independence is now treated as highly likely around the world.
Someone should give “Barney” the tel.no. of Guy Verhofstadt. He might be able to bring him up to speed. 😉
Alistair Darling’s homes?
London?
@Malc says: 28 October, 2016 at 3:12 pm:
“D’ye think that’s resignation? In that they now just assume it’s an eventuality we’ll bugger off?”
No I do not think it is resignation, Malc, but it could be recognition of something I’ve been banging on about for what seems forever.
They could be, at long last, acknowledging the difference in the status of the only two member kingdoms in the In United Kingdom and that of the other two countries annexed by the Kingdom of England before the United Kingdom was instigated.
This statement would seem to agree that the only two component parts of the United Kingdom are the Kingdoms of Scotland and England. Both Wales & N.I, are parts of the Kingdom of England.
This is the first, if rather tenuous, link to the truth.
The treatment of Scotland by Westminster as being only a country similar to Wales & N.Ireland that both were annexed by the Kingdom of England before the Union is obviously legally wrong.
Scotland, is both a country and a Kingdom, as is England but there is a difference between the Kingdom of England, which contains three distinct countries and the country of England that is, in itself a distinct country.
Scotland’s true legal status within the Union is as an equally sovereign Kingdom. The reality, though, is that Westminster is treating Scotland as though just another English Kingdom country like Wales or N. Ireland.
Both NI and Gibraltar have borders with EU countries.
Scotland does not. That is most likely why we are not mentioned.
Que
C’est c’est aqui
Petit Bretagne
Theresa May pledged this week that the devolved administrations would have a direct line to Brexit Secretary, David Davis MP.
Could we perhaps ‘phone our Consul General David Mundell instead?
Scotland’s Champion in May’s Cabinet.
So no status for Scotland, no special deals for Scotland, nothing.
Ok bring it on.
By the way EFTA for me, Norway is doing rather well with that, and still has all it’s seas.
Who is Barnier? a pretty big cheese as it happens.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37542204
Davey, quick click on the link and hope the Rev hasn’t spotted your comment. He’ll be searching for his hammers! 😉
Have they “mislaid” Scotland, land of the Scots.
Remainers extrordinaire!
Yipee!! We are staying 🙂 🙂
Two little words – “such as”.
Robert Peffers Says:
“They could be, at long last, acknowledging the difference in the status of the only two member kingdoms in the In United Kingdom and that of the other two countries annexed by the Kingdom of England before the United Kingdom was instigated.
This statement would seem to agree that the only two component parts of the United Kingdom are the Kingdoms of Scotland and England.”
Should this be the case that they are starting to see the UK as a “Treaty Union” with two equal partners AND start to acknowledge both as partners to negotiate with, then the s**t will truely start to fly in London. This’ll terrify them..!
Has Nicola been doing her background homework/history lessons with the Europeans? 🙂
Tony Blair agrees with Nicola Sturgeon
He said he wants to be an insturgeont, well that’s what it sounded like to me
Maybe it’s in relation to land borders with EU nations. Gib – Esp & N.I.- Eire. Sco – Eng would obviously be different.
@Graf Midgehunter
You can bet your last groat she has!
“Who is Michel Barnier: The Frenchman in charge of the EU’s Brexit negotiations ” and “The European Commission has shown it is prepared to play “hardball” by appointing a former French minister who reportedly blames Britain for losing his job as head of its Brexit negotiations.”
Mmmm, indeed!
@Graf Midgehunter
Like Malc – first post – I think what he says is good news.
@Robert Peffers – Oh I really hope so.
There has been a massive increase in SNP bad over the last few weeks.
The SNHS is a mess etc.I have to say the continuing criticisms of this is making me mad and I know that there can be improvements.
Dr Jim says:
“the EU has the good will to be better”
lol.
@Robert Peffers
Possibly, which is why it is so vital you keep “banging on” about the historical and actual status, and that it gets put around. It also makes it more likely that, in need, EU member states and the EU itself will recognise our status and, basically, if the EU recognises it the rest of the world won’t be far behind – specially including the US.
It all makes me think that the better informed Scotland as a whole is about the EU and how it works, the more we’ll be a desirable remaining member, so EU education has to be foremost in our efforts for a smooth transition as part of the EU under the UK as a member state, to full EU member under our own steam. We’ll just fit in like a missing piece of a jigsaw. And it might, with any luck, help to remove the uncertainty of EU membership going into Indy Ref 2.
Not the Specials.
Could be Madness but t they’re good. New album out today.
From an EU perspective, that makes sense. The EU’s priority now is their member states, not the UK which for all they care can go hang. Thus the only parts of the UK which count are those that member states care about enough to speak up for – ie, the Spanish with Gibralter, the Irish with Northern Ireland.
That would change, of course, if Scotland held indyref2 and the EU saw a realistic prospect that part of the UK would remain a member state, or rejoin the EU.
Both Northern Ireland and Gibraltar have land borders with EU countries. Scotland hasn’t. Apparently if you don’t have a land border you can go hang.
Alors les gazoux (et les gazelles évidemment) qu’est-ce que vous en pensez? Ne serait-il pas l’ocassion parfat de mettre en evidence nos capacités linguistique afin de montrer à nos confrères et sœurs Européens, tels que Monsieur Barnier, que nous voudrions reclaimer notre place au sein de l’Europe?
Allons-y linguists d’Écosse
Did Barnier not write Captain Corelli’s Mandolin
But obviously its ‘Nissan’ thats missing…
I thinks it’s a case of keeping the powder dry, folks. Gibraltar and NI are huge problems but the Scottish constitutional issue goes to the heart of the union and is potentially explosive. With such a weapon, both sides have have to be very careful when they pull the trigger. 🙂
Forgot to say my source of that quote about Barnier was of course the wonderfully balanced, EU-friendly and not at all “Johnny Foreigner”, Telegraph.
http://archive.is/KWIJL
So much of the MSM was like that, no wonder so many voted for Leave. Truly disgusting. Herald wasn’t anti-EU and I don’t think the Scotsman was either (?), credit to them.
The problem here is that the EU can’t do anything nice for Scotland without doing something nice for the UK in the process. And the EU is in no mood to play nice with the UK. Scotland is in danger of being collateral damage here, even though whatever’s coming will be accompanied by a regretful glance in the direction of the Scots who voted remain, that won’t stop the EU being as ruthless as they need to be to deter Euroskepticism in their own countries.
Its the greater English region, Scotland.
It obviously assumes we will still be ‘in’.
Its the greater English region, Scotland.
With the most powerful devolved parliament in the galaxy. So shut it you slags.
Oscar Taime says:
Only if our EU friends, or ex friends rather, learn the Doric too.
You are reading way too much into it. Gibraltar and Northern Ireland have land borders with EU countries, and therefore their situation (namely – the border) needs to be discussed.
With regards to Scotland – The EU would be (very) glad to accommodate it as a member if it becomes independent. As long as it’s part of the UK, it’s clearly going to be treated as such. Is that surprising?!
Tried to mention land border earlier but got knocked back for posting too fast.
Given Spain and RoI aren’t on the list either then logically it’d be England that will be added if we choose independence.
Qué¿
Who is Tom McTague, the author of this Politico piece?
@ Robert Peffers et al
Apologies if this has been dealt with before but I haven’t been able to read every post recently.
Is there a point, after Art 50 is submitted, that the Treaty of Union is broken? It may already be broken in any case!
If so we don’t need WM’s approval for indyref 2, nor do we have to use Electoral Commission to ratify our referendum.
Any clarification gratefully accepted.
Anyone missing, Graun style,
http://archive.is/1ngXY
“Political scientist David Runciman thinks it’s education that sets people apart, writer John Harris thinks the dividing line is wealth and access to the fruits of globalisation, Dr D’maris Coffman thinks it’s whether you define yourself as British or English, and Theresa May thinks it’s the metropolitan elite versus the rest.”
Oops spoke too soon, one more awful shyster promising Brexit devo jam for the sucka sweaties, tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow
http://archive.is/TasF3
Graun gimps say Sturgeon cant even run the NHS, so why let you lot near Brexit, be quiet, let the biggies decide and if youre very good little sweaties,
“If Scotland gets enhanced devolved powers and a Brexit deal which the SNP can fudge into success, then all of Scottish politics will refocus on social policy, and the NHS in particular.”
Before we go any further in laying in to Michel Barnier, the French minister put in charge of Brexit, it might be more appropriate to comment on the author of this piece, Tom McTague, who may well be taking Barnier out of context or otherwise trimming what he said.
Also, on what Barnier has been informed are the British government’s main concerns.
Passporting rights for the City of London weren’t mentioned either, which makes me think McTague is a lazy writer.
No, I think Barnier is telling us what the EU’s concerns are in the disengagement process, he’s not talking about Britain’s concerns at all and nor is he talking about any post Brexit trade deal.
Can it be as simple as this, at this precise moment in time, Gibraltar and Northern Ireland are adjacent to two Independent Nation States within the European Union and we are not?
I suppose one reading of this would be that, as mentioned, Gibraltar and NI have land borders with the EU, so that’s an immediate practical problem for the EU.
Scotland voting Remain and not having borders with the EU isn’t a practical problem. From an EU perspective, it’s simply an internal political issue for the UK and Scotland to resolve.
On the other hand, Scots are EU citizens, and we are being forcibly deprived of our EU citizen rights against our wishes. Ethically, if nothing else, that ought to be a problem for the EU. But then the same could be said of the 48%.
Barnier is well aware of Scotland’s predicament as is all of the EU.
I believe he has specifically omitted Scotland because he knows what’s in the pipeline and right now he can’t comment on something that is uncertain.
Scotland may well be making its own and separate arrangements with the EU.
I should qualify that by saying we (Scotland) are part of a Sate on it’s way out and until we are independent we are shackled to a rock as “armband” trying to swim ashore whilst trying not to drown by the said rock that is England and Wales. Sorry Wales you voted leave as well.
Luigi @ 4.33
I am afraid I have to agree with you.
We are the bargaining chip in all of this.
That man if he is worth his salt will know that he will cause a reaction here by not mentioning us.
He will or should also know that he can make a statement or two about us that could cause chaos for Westminster.
Westminster knows it as well.
While it would be pretty to think Scotland’s Treaty arrangements were finally being acknowledged,I can’t see it.
It’s not his job to clarify our constutional status.
His job is to make a deal,that means he has to exploit any weakness that he can to gain a better bargaining position.
The threat of letting Scotland know it would be welcome in the EU,is I think one that he must use or he wouldn’t be doing his job.
This is where it gets dangerous for us ,in that,Westminster must surely try to take us with them when they go.
How can they bargain over any detail that includes Scotland and her resources,when the EU negotiators will say how can you be seriously committing to that when you might not have those resources much longer.
The UK can’t in my view negotiate jack shit for certain until they have solved what they are going to do about Scotland.
Otherwise they’ll negotiate,we leave and they have to start all over again.
That’s why the “we can delay a referendum ” comment bothered me so much.
Again I worry that Westminster is going to attempt to leave fast to make sure we go with them,and we have had no time to organise Indy Ref 2.
If that happens I don’t fancy our chances of ever getting a vote.
Its a crying shame you guys didn’t vote out 2 years ago, by now we’d ushering you back in the door. You could have waved to the rest of the UK while passing them in the doorway.
Faisal Islam just tweeted and reported that he reckons that the UK is going to be staying in the Customs Union. He reckons this was the ‘assurance’ that was given the Japanese by Greg Fisher re Nissan, and that this is likely to be negotiated successfully with the EU because of the integration of the car industry across Europe and the degree of exports and imports of not only whole finished cars, but also the market in components to make cars.
So that’s NI and Gibraltar substantially sorted.
@Joannie. Crying shame? Crying shame? It was a b***y tragedy. I have never been so upset in my life. I thought I was losing my mind, I was and am, still gutted and disgusted, and so are most Yessers. Don’t downplay the feeling.
I’m sorry Sunniva, I didn’t mean to downplay it. I am really, really sorry. I’ve got family and friends in Scotland and neighbours over here from Scotland, and they all feel the same way you do about the 2014 result. On a brighter note, the Scots I know living over here all say they will make sure to back in Scotland and registered to vote for “the next time.”
The sooner the better.
A bit O/T but I saw an interesting article prepared by Civitas who calculated that, if the UK reverted to WTO tariffs they would collect much more in revenues than the Uk would need to pay out.
In addition, the weak pound would make our exports much cheaper and would encourage U.K. consumers to buy more UK produced goods.
Very interesting and maybe that’s why Greg Clark was able to give assurances about no subsidies being paid to Nissan.
Relax Folks – we are still in “the Phoeny War” part of Brexit; it is all about posturing and supposedly laying down markers.
Nothing of substance will happen until Mother Theresa triggers Article 50, right now she is waiting for her three War Cabinet – Field Marshall’s Johnston, Davies and Fox getting their act together (stop tittering at the back there).
Once A50 is live, we will start ot have an idea what is going on and what might transpire.
What worries me is – the last time there was a Phoeny War, involving the UK and Europe, that ended with Dunkirk.
Back in 1940, the English got out, because the Scots of the 51st Division were sacrificed and left stranded on the beaches of St Valery.
This time round, I fear we will be left stranded at the top end of the M6 while the City of London, Gibraltar and Northern Ireland get special deals in Europe.
Macandroid @ 5.11
It’s a wee bit early in to this thread to answer your questions right now my friend as explaining it can get a bit long winded.
And also can disrupt the current conversion.
If nobody else has answered you in say an hour or two I will explain the best I can.
So just keep checking.
@ Liz g
I dont think things will turn out well for anyone concerned if they go for a quick, hard Brexit and then deny us an Indyref.
Just saying.
@yesindy2
If the que was aimed at me.
My point was that if the list is simply parts of the UK that have a land border with the rEU then the country we want to add is England. Ideally an independent Scotland would be part of the EU.
Just coming up on RT Misreporting Scotland
@Joannie, apology accepted. No hard feelings. But just so you know the depth of feeling. Good to hear others on your side of the pond are optimistic but I remain doubtful that we will ever be free. The beast we are dealing with will not let us go easily, and right now is fighting dirty. In 1707 we were 20% of the UK population, now we are 8.3%. That’s what 300 years of being in a union with the British does to you. As recently as 20 years ago we had 72 MPs, soon we will have only 53. Our power within the UK becomes feebler and feebler. We want our sovereignty back so that we can grow our economy and establish our own social model. Lack of control of the economic levers means immigration has been our curse. Every year 40,000 young people aged 16-24 out of a population of 5.2 million leave Scotland to find work elsewhere. People we have raised and educated in a good land in good schools and world class universities. Ours is an ageing population and without the young Europeans coming here to work our tax base will be in crisis and will not support the elderly who remain. That is what the British want to do to us, crush and diminish us until we don’t exist any more. The best you can do for us is to encourage Scottish emigrants to return home and work for Scotland if they care so much about our future.
Scotsppine @ 6.06
Me either,thats why am hoping I am wrong.
But you know what it’s like when everything they are saying seem to fit that route.
Although I keep telling myself that I am just filling in the blanks because nobody is giving out any notion of what any of them plan to do.
Including Nicola.
I mean this is our lives and future they are dealing with,and it’s frustrating that because May likes to play silly buggers no body will say anything.
Oscar Je T’aime cette idee!
I’m off to find my French linguaphone course!
Amazingly enough I did understand every word of your post although I had to make a guess at ‘gazoux et gazelles’
I believe the difference is that Scotland in effect has it in its own hands whether it will be in the EU or the UK, and from its own point of view the EU doesn’t have to worry about that either way.
NI and Gib are a different story, since they essentially don’t have that degree of control over their own destiny, so some kind of agreement will have to be found for them.
heedtracker says:
28 October, 2016 at 5:00 pm
Oscar Taime says:
Only if our EU friends, or ex friends rather, learn the Doric too.
Ruby replies
That is a bit mean considering our EU friends do a bloody good job of learning English.
I’ve got my French books out and I’m busy conjugation French irregular verbs!
I know a good few Spanish ‘palabrotas’ which might be handy if we want to send a message to the Madrid Gov.
http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-set-for-dirty-brexit-theresa-may-european-council/
‘EU set for ‘dirty Brexit’
Senior EU diplomats told to prepare for no agreement with the UK after two years of talks.
Forget hard Brexit or soft Brexit. European officials have been instructed to prepare for a “dirty Brexit.”
Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit ‘Dirty Brexit’ it sound a bit like porn!
Sorry about the early O/T , BBC Scotland on Scotrail just now ( sound down) I haven’t a clue what is being said but I think we can all guess the content, it then jumps to a shot of the Indy camp outside Holyrood OH the Subliminal message are early tonight. As ever good old BBC Scotland never knowingly undercut by Fox News .
oops missed the all
Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit ‘Dirty Brexit’ it all sound a bit like porn!
I think Galamcennalath is closest.
Living in Scotland relative to the EU, is like being at a swimming pool – in a completely different environment from the one outside, and having little, if any, sense of what it’s like.
Just like the people of North Korea have no idea what the countries around them, think of them.
Remember, Europe sees Scotland as having an SNP Government with 3 terms and a huge lead over the opposition which, given the opposition, is not going to change in a hurry. Extending the timeline, Europe knows Independence is only a matter of time.
‘She also took a dig at Barnier over a suggestion that the Brexit negotiations would be conducted in French.’
Barnier he is the one who said negiations should be conducted in French!
Thank goodness there are a few laughs otherwise all this Brexit Porn would be pretty dull!
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Maybe Barnier has met Oor Nicola, or at least heard about her. 🙂
Scotland can look after itself, if it has the will to so do.
The sooner the camp at the Scottish Parliament goes the better. I was making progress with my Seniors group but these campers and their nonsense about Christ allowed the yoons in the group to take the pish. We have to present a “normal” image to win.
@ Liz g
Thanks. Will check back. Off to see Wee Ginger Dug at Columcille Centre now 🙂
@Les Wilson
Agree re EFTA. More capital protection. Iceland has managed this very well.
bugsbunny says:
28 October, 2016 at 5:29 pm
Can it be as simple as this, at this precise moment in time, Gibraltar and Northern Ireland are adjacent to two Independent Nation States within the European Union and we are not?
Ruby replies
I think his concerns are for Ireland & Spain rather than N. Ireland & Gibraltar.
If they are going for a ‘Dirty Brexit’ they could insist that there’s a hard border between Ireland & N. Ireland & that Spain close the Spanish-Gibraltar border.
“However, it seemed clear to European governments that by insisting on immigration control and ruling out the continued jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice after Britain leaves the EU, May had boxed herself into a “hard Brexit.”
I don’t know why there is any talk of soft Brexit as I can’t see how the UK Gov could go for a soft Brexit.
You can contact Michel Barnier via twitter or facebook and ask him if Scotland is included in the 4th Check. I tried four days ago but got nothing back. Maybe some of our French speakers would fair better. http://www.twitter.com/MichelBarnier.
http://www.facebook.com/michelbarnier/?fref=ts
Full article http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-set-for-dirty-brexit-theresa-may-european-council/
Pile on ?
Customs Union. This is something new to learn about.
https://archive.is/2ntpR
‘Vince Cable: assurances to Nissan means UK will stay in customs union ‘
‘If the former Liberal Democrat MP is correct, it would make the job of Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, redundant because membership of the customs union means the UK could not strike its own independent trade deals.’
What a pity we dont have the most powerful devolved Parliament on Planet earth (just ask davidson and mundell) or we could be like !!wallonia!! and tell them to get lost.
Apart from the glaringly obvious omission of Scotland as a part of the UK that might require special treatment, Barnier’s negotiating agenda also completely avoids any mention of negotiations between the UK and the EU over the UK’s future relationship with the EU once it leaves.
The two years from the triggering of Article 50 will be taken up with negotiating the issues on his agenda, not on negotiating a trade deal between the UK and the EU or even an interim agreement between the UK leaving and a future trade deal being struck.
What this means in practise is that the UK, from the moment it leaves the EU to the moment it finalises a trade deal with the EU (if one is finalised at all – the difficulties CETA has encountered suggest a trade deal between the UK and the EU may be impossible to agree) will be subject to WTO rules for trade with the EU, unless both parties agree to the UK remaining in the EU’s Customs Union at the very least until a trade deal can be struck.
If that (UK membership of the EU’s Customs Union) is agreed, it means the UK won’t be able to agree any trade deals independently, as membership of the EU’s Customs Union means accepting the EU’s external tariffs imposed on imports from outside the EU’s Customs Union.
Therefore, the supposed big advantage of Brexit, the UK’s ability to do trade deals with non-EU countries, will disappear.
Another interesting article on the ‘Customs Union’
https://archive.is/3hYqX
‘Similar deals are rumoured to be busting out all over Planet Brexit. The farmers have allegedly been given assurances that the migrant worker schemes on which their harvests depend will be protected. The big banks are told over ministerial lunches there is no question of obstacles to the free movement of their staffs round Europe. Care homes, NHS hospitals, the construction industry, tourism are all beating paths to Whitehall’s doors, relying as they do on low-paid continental and seasonal labour. Within the car industry, it goes without saying that Toyota, Ford and other big manufacturers are awaiting the same soothing words as Nissan has received. Otherwise all hell will break loose.’
@liz says: 28 October, 2016 at 4:12 pm:
“The SNHS is a mess etc.I have to say the continuing criticisms of this is making me mad and I know that there can be improvements”
There is one thing certain, Liz, and that is you are not alone being angry at the Yoon loons constant derogation of our SNHS, (and that is without the inclusion of the workers of the SNHS).
Anyone with an ounce of brainpower will not just get angry but, after their initial burst of anger, will realise that, as you say, there is always room for improvement, but that in the entire United Kingdom the only country whose performance is actually increasing their performance figures is Scotland.
If the UK are in the ‘EU Customs Union’ how would that affect trade with iScotland within the EU?
Does tha put and end to the argument that we’re leaving our largest trading partner?
Thanks for the info on who Barnier is, I had no idea and thought he may be some tory May had pulled out of the woodwork.
I would now like to apologise to Mr Barnier for thinking he might be a tory, it was a disgusting thing to do and I’m very very very very sorry.
Honest I am.
NFU conference calling for more subsidy money post BREXIT. BBC has an odd way of stating the position:
NFU call to divert English subsidies to Scots farms
English subsidies?
“A proportion of the money coming to the UK arrives only because of the high proportion of “less favoured” land in the Highlands and islands.
But the money is also shared with farmers in the rest of the UK.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37796714
Mundell will say that farmers “can look forward to a future full of opportunity”.
What no mention of the City Of Spivs or the Nissan car Company?
@Macandroid says: 28 October, 2016 at 5:11 pm:
” … Is there a point, after Art 50 is submitted, that the Treaty of Union is broken? It may already be broken in any case!”
It has not just been broken it has been shattered not least by the devolution of powers along the lines of country not kingdom.
It really is quite simple, Macandroid. The treaty is undoubtedly a bipartite union of the only two kingdoms still extant in 1706/7. Not only are countries not even mentioned in the entire document but there are only two signatories on the document and they are both Kingdoms. Wales and Ireland are not even mentioned because they were, in 1706/7, both part of the Kingdom of England.
So by definition what was united was two kingdoms and these were the signatories, and thus the two partners in the union. Even the title used tells you it is a union of kingdoms.
Thus there can be no justification for Westminster to split the union up as if it were a union of four countries. Worse still to claim that the treaty totally wiped out the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed The Kingdom of England as The United Kingdom.
The stark truth is that what is legally a bipartite union of kingdoms is now being run as if England is the United Kingdom and is devolving English powers to Scotland.
Look at the facts – England has no block grant but is funded directly as the United Kingdom while England decides what powers the other three countries should have.
Not only that but Westminster legislates under the English legal system and Acts of Parliament are drafted under English Law then they tag wee bits on to accommodate the laws of Scotland.
The United Kingdom is run as if it is England and Scotland, N. Ireland and Wales are English acquisitions.
As David Mundell put it, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.”
And he cited a Westminster commissioned paper as his source.
@Orri
No – someone said in French we should all be linguists or something, so I was just being cunning in Spanish!
There are 30 major car/engine manufacturers in UK, with 3,000 companies involved in the supply sector,
only 1 major manufacturer in Scotland,Alexander Dennis in Falkirk,
the motor trade has turnover £68 billion a year,
over 800,000 employed,
if the foreign owners decided to relocate to an EU country,England would be decimated,
the incentives from UK Gov to EU to bring all these manufacturers to England was to let other EU countries dominate other industries,
give up ship building,give up major steel manufacturing,give up coal mining,give up fishing grounds,
Scotland`s industry was laid waste so that England would get the bulk of EU motor industry.
Just watching “Burd’z Eye View” starring Elaine C Smith. The number of Slabbers I have meet who hate her is unbelievable. Someone told me her daughter is married to a Dalmellington boy (Ayrshire). I have no idea if this is true. With the exception of J.K. Rowling, Unionist celebrities don’t bother me. Yet Yoons seem to hate Scottish Celebrities who support Indy. Maybe it’s because, deep in their hearts they know they will lose and we will win? Unless they play dirty again of course? but I still think we will win.
Capella @7.47
Perhaps when Mr Mundell, the “Best Scot in Westminster 2016”, tells the Scottish farmers that they ‘can look forward to a future of opportunity’ he really means that once they are no longer able to earn a living as farmers they will every opportunity to do anything else they want! Anything but farming!
Maybe they could become car manufacturers and then they will receive assurances and support from TM’s government… or they could move to NI or Gibraltar!
O/T
Neah Evans, Scottish bike rider at the London Six Days has just won her heat – Womens Flying Lap 🙂
Big and right across the back of her shorts – SCOTLAND. Lovely, let’s have some more..!
Theresa May nor her three amigos can tell us anything about anything yet a wee spotty faced infant unelected Tory list MSP can come on our news and inform us all of the Tory party immigration policy Mmhmn
Our NHS in Scotland is down on it’s targets by a tiny percentage point but they punt it out like it’s the doomsday scenario instead of saying isn’t the SNHS performing fantastically well under the strain of modern times and Westminster budget cuts of our own money to our elected Fukcing Goverment
I look at news from other countries and nobody, but nobody reports the kind of crap about their country like the Scottish and British media do about Scotland
We must be worth an absolute Feckin mint in Scotland for them to go to these lengths of blatant flat out biliousness
We’ve even got the Spanish prime minister Rajoy now admitting Scotlands a different case for Independence, but that’s still not good enough for the Bastirts even though they were happy to quote him last time and even up to a week ago when they thought he was on their side, now he’s apparently a dummy who knows nothing
I swear to God if this behaviour by Scotlands broadcasters and newspapers doesn’t stop It’ll be the UKIP solution
Jaikits aff….News? ah’ll give ye news! Ah’ll take ma hand aff yer faces! There ye are
Noo where’s ma string vest n bandage fur ma heid
So the key to the whole thing seems to be this Scottish Westminster Politician of the year guy, because he is spreading the word in Scotland and the EU as well. So he says Scotland will get a special deal and that gets widey reported and then contradicted which also gets widely put about. The he says we won’t get a special deal which gets widely reported and then contradicted which …
… repeat this a few times, the BBC are lapping it all up because not only is it Mundell the only Tory in Scotland who is out of Scotland representing and not representing Scotland in the Westminster Government on our behalf but not really, while not really being in the Westminster Government either. He’s giving us the inside poop while not being on the inside because he’s been sent out to the cludgie while the important stuff is being discussed so he has to make it up as he goes along, at the same time as bringing in the tea for the lords and master. More tea vicar?
Meanwhile, Sturgeon is feeding him high octane fodder laced with syrup of figs which has the inevitable effect.
We’re going to need more bog roll.
@Graf Midgehunter
And very nice it is too. Err.
Anyways, about the farmers, this UK Gov coverage for the EU convergence uplift thing (BBC don’t even know the correct term for it) is guaranteed until 2020 but Brexit happens on 1st April 2019 so that’s 8 months, or 21 at most if end of 2020, and what happens then is the farmers realise they’ve been stiffed.
Again.
Pass the Vow. Or is it bow-wow?
Mind you, I think most small working farmers were well YES, that’s the idea I got from the Farmers magazine whatever it was called. So they probably know fine. As will the NFUS.
yesindyref2
So, you are implying you are a Samantha Bond (as Moneypenny) line from a James Bond movie?
@Meg merrilees and @Capella and @yesindyref2
As for Captain Snackbeard McFluffbrain of Mundellia telling Scottish farmers what a wonderful future they will have after Brexit, he could well be right: by then, Scotland could have made the only sane choice available – INDEPENDENCE.
I see Derek Bateman has decided to defend the indefensible and support the BBC and other Broacasters in their denial of Bias against the SNP, and Oh, Jackie Bird isn’t biased and doesn’t make faces, it’s all in our imagination
Except it’s not and it’s provable and real and Derek Bateman is wrong and he must know it
The art of fence post sitting is long learned but as yet there is no evidence of survival of this art without at some point a degree of pain being inflicted to the Arse
O/T (again)
London Six Days, Womens sprint.
Two Scottish girls win the race. 1st Katie Archibald. 2nd Neah Evens. 🙂
That “Talisker’s” gonna taste good tonight..!
Sunniva, WOW. like WOW. that was brilliant. Kudos.
Macandroid @ 5.11
I see that Robert Peffers has already told you that the Treaty of the Union has indeed already been broken.
It has also been broken well before devolution,the poll tax was probably the best known one.
While I am a bit vague on the details I do remember reading a while back that the Treaty was broken within a year or two of it being signed,someone got hung under what was an English Law.
Why, I can’t remember but it wasn’t supposed to happen.
But then as now,nothing ever came out of any breech.
That’s mainly because the people who knew about it and had the power to act didn’t.
In general and especially since everyone got a vote,the Treaty and the arrangements surrounding it weren’t or weren’t allowed to be an issue.
I think it was the anti poll tax campaigners that first made it an issue in modern times.
As things stand just now we do have people in place (Scottish MP’s) to act to dump this Treaty and go back to having our government acting for Scotland alone and not in partnership (stoap laughing) with all the other MP’s on these islands.
So having said all that,the answer to your question is.
We don’t need Westminster’s permission for a referendum.
We never have no matter what they say.
The Edinburgh Agreement was just a set of terms and conditions about how the referendum would be run.
So that any leagal gumph surrounding a Yes result would be easier to put in place.
There’s a lot of fancy footwork around needing Westminster’s permission,dont believe any of it.
For the Treaty to be struck down what needs to happen.. roughly…is The people of Scotland have to instruct the Scottish MP’s to do so.
That’s what the vote will do.
This is how we can be sure the MP’s are acting on our instructions AKA The Sovereign Will Of The Scottish People.
The Union I think has lasted so long for 2 reasons,up until recently most people didn’t know that they had this power and secondly the politicians were never willing to ask for any instructions on how the people themselves felt about continuing with the arrangements.
You might have noticed that this has changed just a tad recently.
Hope that helps…..did warn you it was long winded.
yesindyref2 says:
28 October, 2016 at 8:05 pm
@Orri
No – someone said in French we should all be linguists or something, so I was just being cunning in Spanish!
A Cunninglinguist? Okay I will get ma coat!
At the end of the day the British dont really give a feck for Ireland or Gibraltar.
A land border on the sceptered isle though would blow their minds.
O/T
The BBC has blood on its hands:
“He replied that if journalists had done their job, “there is a very, very good chance we would not have gone to war in Iraq”.
It was a shocking statement, and one supported by other famous journalists to whom I put the same question — Dan Rather of CBS, David Rose of the Observer and journalists and producers in the BBC, who wished to remain anonymous.
In other words, had journalists done their job, had they challenged and investigated the propaganda instead of amplifying it, hundreds of thousands of men, women and children would be alive today, and there would be no ISIS and no siege of Aleppo or Mosul.” – (my emphasis).
From: http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/28/inside-the-invisible-government-war-propaganda-clinton-trump/
Please oh Please big guy in the Sky, let us wee people see the light, In my eyes the SNP are governing the way that ideally they think the uk gov should.(under duress i may add) But again and again they are being shunned, Both torys and redtorys undermine everything that Our SG do. the ukok gov dont give a fiddlers fart about us and rip the pish, not think its about time that our elected government in Scotland should start its own propoganda agenda and tell these farts that without us they are fuck all AND SHOW what we are worth Independent and without them. You guys on Wings are my source of info and i cannae wait tae share a wee dram when we finally get THERE. Slange i va .
An interesting judgement re N Ireland and the Royal prerogative in allowing article 50.
I think the Scottish government could challenge this successfully. Royal prerogative was introduced in England in the 14th Century and was used by successive monarchs. However when James took up the dual Kingdom, he tried to expand the powers of Royal perogative but met with resistance on the basis that these powers could neither be “enhanced” or” diminished. ”
Given that fact then it is hard to see why or how the Queen could overule the sovereignty of the Scottish people and claim it as her own,
Could this be why the famous “Scotland ceased to exist ” argument was offered. ?
It may yet be tested after all.
Westminister are calling our bluff. They are daring us to go for Indy Ref2.
They must think they will win!, either at the ballot box, or in the courts thereafter.
Gotta love the blatancy of the NFU. It’s not English subsidies that need redistribution. It’s ones intended for Scottish farms in the first place you condescending wankrags
Bob Mack @ 10.13
While ultimately I think they will leave the Queen out of it as a paper exercise it’s bloody hilarious.
Elizabeth 1st Queen of the Scot’s….V… Elizabeth 2nd Queen of England.
She will need to hiv an argument with herself.
And if she decides that the Soverenty that was given to the Scot’s from God is not valid,then the Soverenty given to her from God can’t be either.
There’s the rub …the owner ship of all that Green and Pleasant Land and the people on it and no right to claim it anymore or acknowledge God gave the Scot’s the same claim to Scotland.
Not forgetting she is obligated to protect our Soverenty so if The Queen of England threatens it will she self harm??
‘On the other hand, Scots are EU citizens, and we are being forcibly deprived of our EU citizen rights against our wishes. Ethically, if nothing else, that ought to be a problem for the EU. But then the same could be said of the 48%.’
We’re being ethically cleansed!
*coats oan already*
@Orri
I don’t know if it’s NFUS, more like the usual distortion the BBC brings. It was Paul Monaghan SNP MP who facilitated the Westminster meeting, and recent papers on the NFUS site make it clear they’re looking for the post-Brexit solution “an exciting time” as Allan Bowie puts it – East Fife farmer.
But if the NFUS don’t like him any more, from what I can see there’s a new election due on or before February 12 2017 – 2 years after he was elected.
Like I said though, I’ve no idea on the political take of NFUS – or its members. But certainly the previous president was totally unchuffed with Carmichael who shared the uplift 4 ways instead of giving it all to Scotland.
http://www.nfus.org.uk/news/2013/november/union-meets-scottish-office-cap-budget-allocation
It coule be a case of talking nicely to get their fair share, as the article points out it must be currently under review again.
Oops, wrong thread.
Westminster to re-establish military presence on St Kilda. National Trust for Scotland licks No 10’s ar*e. May & Co. pours contempt on Scottish sovereignty.
@Orri
From ScotGov about the UK Gov theft of the convergence uplift, fucking bastards.
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/farmingrural/Agriculture/CAP/CAPEurope10112012/budget-facts31102012
I’m all for a “dirty Brexit”. Sounds fun, in a dodgy sort of way.
“off a cliff edge” !
Clydebuilt at 10.20
I have absolutely no idea how you came up with that conclusion
The Wallonia region of Belgium has the power to veto any agreement signed by Belgium as we found out recently.
The entire EU could not sign a trade deal with Canada because Wallonia refused to accept it.
Compare that with Scotland, an “equal” partner in the union with England, with “sovereign” people who can get rid of the monarch if they don’t like her and can give “instructions” to their MPs to do what they have been told.
Don’t you think we are completely deluded?
To complete that about CAP convergence etc. The current EU budget runs from 2014-2020, hence the 2020 date in that ScotGov document. If Scotland was Independent and in the EU in our own right before the end of 2020, the farmers here would be getting the full uplift of €196 per hectare, rather than the €130 currently (plus whatever fraction Carmichael gave to Scotland while grovelling to the UK Gov as a Unionist. And he got re-elected.). On its own that betrayal should have won IndyRef1.
What the farmers and the fishers don’t seem to realise is that the EU has particularly high tariffs for agricultural produce, so post-Brexit they may farm and fish to their hearts’ content, but pretty soon they’ll get a nasty surprise in discovering that they’ll have a hard time selling much of it to the largest market in the world right on their doorstep, despite the slump in the pound.
And for all Fluffy’s manoevering, they don’t have the industrial muscle to force a blackmail deal on the UKGov like Nissan.
Testing. Put up a post last night which never appeared.
Bob Mack@ 10.13pm
I posted on the previous thread that the judgement of the NI courts was primarily concerned with how the Brexit/Royal Prerogative/ Article 50 situation would affect NI Constitution and the Good Friday Agreement, specifically whether any constitutional change would require the consent of the people of NI.
The Judge said that, ” The UK Parliament has retained to itself the ability to legislate for NI without the need to resort to any special procedure”
but he also said that the situation MAY be different in Scotland and he would leave that to the Scottish courts to decide. He clearly doesn’t think that Scotland ceased to exist in 1707!!!
Liz @ 9.26 re the Treaty of Union being broken – wasn’t there a case of an English motorist who got off a recent Scottish conviction for drink driving because he appealed through the English courts where the limit is still higher?
Do we think even if we were to lose the next referendum the Yoons would think that was it over and we’ll just all accept it and settle down and forget it
Because I wouldn’t, even if the SNP were the worst government in history I’d still vote that way just to annoy the Yoons
They do it to us right now so be warned Yoons I’ll vote SNP till the end of time coz I can be a Bastirt too
@ yesindyref2 11.02 – thanks for the link to the CAP payments info. Infuriating, isn’t it:
“Within Europe the UK Government negotiated Scotland to the bottom of the league table for both Pillar 1 and Pillar 2. Within the UK, it has done nothing to mitigate the situation despite our well founded arguments.”
No matter where you look, the cold dead hand of Westminster destroys Scotland’s economy and well being.
What was that CameronB Brodie was saying about the right to development?
Now other car makers want bespoke deals with UK gov, just like Nissan.
So this is how it’s going to play out now. Any corporation, business can simply threaten the UK gov with leaving the UK on the back of brexit vote as they are quite within their right to do so. Consequently the UK government can be blackmailed into providing ‘special concessions’ to prevent said companies leaving?
And we all thought TTIP was going to be the big ‘trade’ issue regarding companies taking governments tae task if they prohibited their profitability in any way. When all that really needed tae happen was an ‘advisory’ referendum with not a shred of honesty or even a ‘plan’ in place should that vote be Brexit and now even before negotiations are triggered by A50 the UK gov is at the mercy of every Tom Dick and Harry shyster who can leverage deals that would quite probably have been impossible to achieve pre Brexit with the UK gov?
Who knew?
Tell you folk, we are totally fucked if we don’t get out of this ASAP.
Make you sick.
Next time anybody brings up ‘fishing’
direct them here.
http://archive.is/QQG5R
My favourite bit.
” Another common argument for Brexit is that it would give the UK sole control of the fish in its waters. However, these fish are not “British”; they don’t respect national boundaries. Mackerel, herring, cod and other commercial species are all highly mobile, and move easily across borders, especially in places such as the North, Celtic and Irish Seas, where “exclusive economic zones” are jammed together like sardines in a can. ”
Thanks for pointers to CAP. It’s the equivalent of getting payments that are meant for a disabled child’s care and spending if a holiday an luxury for yourself. Worse as if the intended recipients got all the funds then their need in subsequent years would diminish.
Barnie R is if course Fred flintstone’s best pal.
Simples!
I’ll get my rock.
I refuse to make any ‘pirate’ jokes
but if people in Iceland can show the way
http://archive.is/l6LXz
surely its not beyond us.
Been out tonight so just going through the posts, and excellent
links. One thing is apparent Westminster is getting more anti Scottish with each passing day.Insulting and demeaning to us for sure, but that is what they do best.
If we do not stand up against this, we are failing future generations.They are dropping every pretense that we are in any way equal partners It is rather, we are not partners at all and never really have been.
Everything is England, England, and we should just submit to being hammered with their various versions of an iron bar.
We need to challenge everything they do, everything the say, every way we can, for the welfare of Scottish people is of no interest to them. We cannot trust anything they say, consider everything as lies, they go that very well too.
We are to be slaves to their needs, and simply not allowed to have aspirations of our own, it simply cannot stay this way.
What country on earth would want to put up with this situation?
Why should we? We really need to sort this or there will be no more Scotland.
The thing about the NI decision is it seems to excuse the use of RP based on the mistaken assumption that A50 doesn’t end a treaty. The problem I’d have with that is that at the end of 2 years the EU can simply wash their hands without ever agreeing to a treaty so the matter would never be referred to Westminster for its approval. As it deals with a treaty then according to English law RP doesn’t apply. Not sure it applies in Scotland in the first place. Pretty sure the Queen might have the option to refuse the advice of a PM.
I’d need to check this out, but it looks like for Pillar 1 we should be getting €300 million a year more, and for Pillar 2 roughly €250 million a year more, total roughly £500 million at the current euro rate. Looks very high! That’s just CAP, let alone all the other EU stuff we’d get.
Currently the UK gets a rebate of £5 billion, Scotland’s share £400 million. So on CAP alone that rebate is paid for, if we have memebrship on our own account. Then there’s other EU funds the UK doesn;t bother with – or applies for too late.
So yeah, Scotland in the EU, without the UK rebate, our contribution would be less than as part of the flaming UK which steals our money – just on CAP alone.
Orri @ 12.05 re the NI court judgement. Sorry if this is a bit wordy!
Have read it a couple of times now and it seems to me that they have attempted to find a cautious way through a constitutional minefield but they are mindful that the English/Welsh challenges may reach a different conclusion. Agree that he doesn’t think triggering Article 50 makes any changes as such.
He rejects the need for an Act of Parliament in favour of RP (Issue 1) thus:
‘..there are some exercises of prerogative power which are still viewed as inappropriate for judicial review because of their subject matter, for example those relating to the making of treaties or matters of “high policy”. He said it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that a decision concerning notification under Article 50(2) made at the most senior level in UK politics, giving notice of withdrawal from the EU by the UK following a national Referendum, is other than one of high policy. Accordingly, it fits well into the category of prerogative decisions which remain unsuitable for judicial review. The judge therefore rejected these factors as grounds of challenge’
but then says the court would however consider the need for a Legislative Consent Motion from the NI Assembly, (Issue 2)’… in case it is wrong in its conclusions in respect of Issue I (i.e the need for the Act of Parliament)’
and goes on to say that, ‘ the situation may be different in Scotland but this Court will leave this to the Scottish courts to decide’.
Does this mean he thinks we could have a veto? Sounds like it to me!
Meg Merrilees @ 11.29
I haven’t heard of that one,but it’s no impossible there is something in one of my daughter’s law books about dealing with situations where something is illegal here but perfectly legal in the country that the accused comes from.
Canny mind exactly what,but it’s along the lines of what was intended.
Rock @ 11.09
Naw Rock it’s no us that are completely deluded.
We’re the ones who are trying to change things remember.
But if we are to use their system to change the system,we need to understand it first.
And to highlight how insane it actually is,to make the case that this is not change for the sake of change.
Which might have been one thing that we didn’t get across last time.
The idea that the government dress up in 17th century costumes,bray like donkeys and call another human Magisty is not IMHO cute,quaint or to be wondered at ….it’s fucking embarrassing.
But you use the system that’s in place because the alternative is to pull the whole lot down, and history shows us that the so called leaders who do that are normally worse than the ones they replaced.
Now how it’s “supposed” to work is probably not how its going to actually work but it will be along those lines somehow.
But if you have a better way let’s hear it.
Meg Merrilees @ 12.55
It might mean that Royal Prerogative is eithter applied differently in Scotland, or that the Scottish Crown doesn’t have it at all.
What I find curious is that it was specifically mentioned it doesn’t seem the Judgement itself needed to refer to Scotland at all.
Maybe a hint ???
In which case if it is then there may indeed be a Veto,but only to make the issue go to a parliamentary vote !!
If you guys are talking like this ,surely our betters in the SG are too, my mind boggles.maybe as Liz g says, they are playing the system as is. Its like the troops are ready but what do we do???
Big Phil @ 1.29
It’s dead frustrating Phil but I think at the moment all we can do is watch and keep sharing information.
Nicola batted the ball in to Westminster’s court,so I guess the next move is theirs.
And they are slippery bugger’s.
So if we are running different possibilities of what they will do past each other that will keep them worried,cause we are bound to have got some of their play right.
And we have at least let them know they won’t get anything past us.
Hi Liz,
here’s the link to the NI judgement.
https://twitter.com/JudiciaryNI/status/791941703800229888?lang=en-gb
just click on the link in the twitter feed.
Scottish reference is the last sentence of the Court’s Assessment of Issue two.
Certainly curious that we are mentioned at all, but then does Declaration of Arbroath preclude the Royal Prerog. being used in Scotland?
Keep it going liz g, I feel its Our time,just wish our ‘leaders’ would be a bit fourthcoming.I’m champin at the bit here. But the system needs tae be played i know .Wings is full of knowledge and you lot with your wee bit o wisdom makes me glad yer on Scotlands’ side.
Jist try and stop us Phil..lol
Meg Merrilees
The Declaration of Arbroth pre date’s the Royal Prerogative by a few hundred years.
Robert Peffers would tell you better,exacty when,but the Royal Prerogative was an issue with king James the Scottish one who inherited the English throne.
It’s also back in to the history books when King Billy took the Throne .
Again the why’s and the wherefores we would need Robert to tell us.
I just don’t know if it is a thing in Scotland at all or if it’s just applied differently.
My best guess is that it was put in place in its current form for King Billy and that points to an England only set up.
Which would mean it has no force in law over us.
Thanks for the link.
Poppy Day
Your child couldn’t make University so wanted to learn a trade and joined the British army, you pay your tax so he can have a uniform, you pay for his training, food , weapons the boats and planes he travels in to go to fight some folk he doesn’t know, but that’s where you paid to have him sent
Then one day your child gets brought home broken beyond repair in transport you paid for with a flag you paid for and you get a letter with a stamp you paid for
Then they ask you to pay for a Poppy to remember your child and all the others you paid for, dead or broken
and after all that the people who sent your child to these places dont want to pay for anything because it was your duty to sacrifice your child to pay for the price of peace or freedom or something like that they said
Now remember to wear a poppy because if you dont you’re a ("Tractor" - Ed) to the country you sacrificed your child for
and the Government who paid nothing who sent your child away will make sure the press prints that and the TV repeats it so some arsehole in the street can shout it at you
This is how the UK Government and people like Kay Burley view the parents and families who pay
Liz g
Interesting that R Prerog came in with King Billy, mentioned the Declaration of Arbroath as although several centuries earlier, has not been superseded and as such places the people of Scotland beyond any Royal Prerog as it renders us Sovereign?
This constitutional discussion/situation is fascinating and, I’ll wager, probably completely unknown to a majority of Scots. I think we may learn the truth pretty soon!
@Liz G / Meg
I don’t think the Northern Ireland Act 1998 makes reference to the Act of Union 1800 or later, whereas the Scotland Act 1998 does: “The Union with Scotland Act 1706 and the Union with England Act 1707 have effect subject to this Act. ”
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/section/37
1801 sorry, not 1800. Couldn’t find it with a quick look at legislation dot gov.
I’m not quite sure what planet Crawford & Boyle were on with that Annex A to the UK Gov’s white paper, frankly, as the Acts of Union enacted the Treaty of Union, the Acts were mentioned in the 1998 Scotland Act, so how on earth in 2013 could the Treaty of Union have become extinct or whatever they said, when the Acts were mentioned in 1998, left in in 2012 and in the latest one? Very curious.
Incidentally, that Crawford & Boyle paper being published was commented on elsewhere as being a mistake, because it puts in the open the UK Gov’s legal position, and that can be used against them.
Oh, by the way, Sturgeon did say she was watching all these legal proceedings very carefully, and the UK one is due out mid-Decemebr I think, unless they can take more time because the planned date for Article 50 isn’t until March.
Yesindyref2
Had a quick look and can’t find a mention either.
Fluffy & co’s Extinguished claim was always rubbish.
I think they just selectively wrote down some legal jargon and put it out there to see if it would fly.
They probably thought people would accept this is a one country now and old documents don’t mean anything.
The NI act wouldn’t make mention of the Act of the Union cause it’s not involved in the Union that’s just for Scotland and England.
But doesn’t it just show how it has to matter when it got included in the devolution legislation!
Meg Merrilees
I don’t think the Royal Prerogative came in with King Billy I think it was tweaked and hasn’t changed since.
But yes this stuff is fascinating…well I think anyway.
I will take that wager and raise you that most of the population could tell you more about the American Constution.
Just go’s to show when you don’t get to produce you own art’s or entertainment how much your culture and history can be lost.
I think our kids would love learning about this in school as well but funnily enough………… can’t think why!!!!
@Liz g
What’s interesting is the wording of that in the Scotland Act ““The Union with Scotland Act 1706 and the Union with England Act 1707 have effect subject to this Act. ””
I can’t just work that one out. It seems to assume that the Scotland Act is superior to the Act of Union, and thereore assumes the right to dispose of the Act of Union in any way it seems fit – including repealing it. Which would assume the UK Government has the right to do so.
Yet by mentioning it at all, it gives the Act of Union currency and therefore credence, therefore the Act of Union would logically be superior to it, as it was passed before the UK Government took office (1st April 1707), and only the Scottish Parliament could repeal it.
Added to that the “reconvened” thing, which since it was in the presence of the Head of State was accepted by her as a “reconvening”. But the original one (Anne) didn’t officially become the Head of State until after the Act of Union was passed and the Scottish Parliament dissolved, but that was done by “Royal” proclamation 3 days BEFORE she became Head of State, 3 days in which the original Scottish Parliament could have reconvened itself and repealed the Act of Union.
The problem is of course that if you go up that avenue, then the Scotland Act 1998 was illegal, so we have no Scottish parliament to have reconvened in the first place. Though there again, having had an election of the People of Scotland in 1999 would give itself legitimacy – under Scots Law, where the People are Sovereign, no matter how it was organised, by whom, or under what “illegal” law. The People made our wishes known, and it resulted in a Government.
So no wonder the NI Judge said, errrrr, no going there. Law is logical, but there’s little logic in that lot.
A part of me would dearly love to see this all in Court. A Scottish court of course, under Scots Law 🙂
Dr Jim @ 2.29
Wore a poppy proudly since high school,to respect All those who died in WW1 & WW2,espically the conscripts.
But also to rember the tragedy that is war.
Not anymore haven’t done since The Politicians and The BBC hijacked it to cover themselves in the Glory of war,they sicken me.
I need to go to bed, to rest my weary head. Said the Bard, thinking hard.
However, I think the Scottish Parliament is legitimate because of the elections that have been held and not challenged in court at all. The People have made our sign with an “X”, and it’s not the political party majority that counts there, it’s every single vote, the complete turnout, whoever it was for.
I also think the Scotland Act – isn’t. It does not exist, there was no legal authority for it, though there is for “Devolution” as in the Referendum of 1997. Therefore there is no such thing as “reserved powers”. Did we see the Scotland Act as part of our decision in the Referendum of 1997? It wasn’t passed until 1998.
So, basically speaking, we’re Independent already but the Scottish Parliament just hasn’t exerted its authority. Yet! Well, it has no mandate from the People to do so. The elections of 1999, 2003, 2007, 2011 and 2016 were not on that basis. And the Referendum of 2014 gave a clear instruction from the People NOT to exercise its authority.
But all it needs is another election on the mandate that it will exert its full authority, or to hold a Referendum of its own choosing, and under its own control. I think that would hold up in court.
Indyref2
I know..where to start with it.
I am very aware that sometimes words written in a legal document often don’t mean what you or I normally think they mean.
I think the words- subject to -might mean ….work within the framework of….the act rather than …inferior ….to it.
Not to worried about what role the Queen had at the opening of the Parliament mainly because most of the ceremony’s lovingly presented as meaningful and traditional have only been invented in the last 100 – 150 or so year’s.
The reconvened bit is the tricky part though,just my opinion but what really should have happened with devolution for it to have made sense it that the MP’s should have reconvened the Scottish parliament to sit at Westminster as in we will deal with the Scottish stuff now go mind your business.
Don’t think that would have gone down well,and may have raised the need for an English Parliament so you would have had 2 parliament’s working separately as well as together.
Then what do you do about Wale’s and N. Ireland
So reconvening the Parliament as a separate set of politicians all together was the safest , fastest and for Scotland the most expensive way to shut Scotland up.
What effect that has legally now I think we are about to find out.
Aye, the A50 clock continues to countdown for
Danger MouseDanger May (DM) and decisions must be made. They could do it on Boxing Day, it could happen on Hogmanay, but it must be invoked by w/e Friday the 31st March 2017 latest.Whaddya’s think of these two toons..?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byj8KZ0CiPU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp-SlLT97Qc
Chris should be along with another one for petit déjeuner.
Tis the ‘Scary Season’ too.. could it be the return of the Mayfly?
How easy all this would have been if we had only voted YES 2 years ago
What is about us Scots that we have to do everything the hard way
Graeme
It’s becauase we’ve been good people, no security concerns, no difficult disputes with the Faroes or Norway. This our reward, to be ignored
Dr Jim, thanks for that .I found it resonated with me in a very big way .
From the moment the coffins arrived and the good folk of Wootton Basset stood out to pay their respects but not one sodding politician did, I have thought how far apart from ordinary folk they had become.
I had to google to find the name of the town that stood in respect and grief. I knew it had been by passed for the benefit of our betters but I had not realised that they had merely copied Washington( once again) Washington banned the coverage of home coming coffins as a means of sanitising their dirty wars and avoiding public displays of rage.
I seem to remember Philip Hammond suggesting that the public should be more encouraging of wars and less queasy but I can’t find the article.
@Big Phil says: 29 October, 2016 at 1:59 am:
”
Keep it going liz g, I feel its Our time,just wish our ‘leaders’ would be a bit fourthcoming.I’m champin at the bit here. But the system needs tae be played i know .Wings is full of knowledge and you lot with your wee bit o wisdom makes me glad yer on Scotlands’ side.”
Hi Big Phil, I’m going to attempt to put the matter of, “The Union”, in perspective without any of the finer points from history that may be confusing those not lucky enough to have had a proper education in history.
Let’s see how it goes.
The full name of “The Union”, when it began was, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland”
That title plainly tells us two very important things. The first one being that it is not a union of countries. The proof that it is not a union of countries is contained in the title itself.
It says the resultant union was called. “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland,” and that, as a description, is of a geographic area. The term. “Great Britain”, describes the greatest, or largest, island of the British Isles and it contains the three distinct countries of Scotland, England and Wales.
Ireland is not part of Great Britain but is part of Britain, (i.e. the British Isles). There is no mention of Wales in the title. Yet Wales came into the union because it was already in Great Britain as part of the Kingdom of England. As was Ireland part of the Kingdom of England but not part of Great Britain. So there are no signatures of either Wales or Ireland on the Treaty document- they were part of the Union as parts of the Kingdom of England.
Plainly both countries thus came into the Union as parts of the Kingdom, not the country, of England. In any case, when the treaty was signed, there were only two sovereign kingdoms in the British Isles.
So we now can prove the Union united only two kingdoms and any agreement with only two partners is legally a bipartite union. A bit like a marriage in fact. When a bipartite union member leaves there is no longer a bipartite union so the Westminster claim of an rUK is mince,
Having established that fact the next thing to consider is what changed when the country of Ireland split up and the South, by becoming a republic, could not thus be part of a kingdom. So and the country of Ireland partitioned into the Republic and the Northern Ireland parts. Even today, Northern Ireland is still called, “A Province”, but it is a province of the Kingdom of England because The Kingdom of Ireland had become a part of The Kingdom of England in 1542.
So the changes made in 1800/1 could not create Northern Ireland as a new kingdom as it was already part of the Kingdom of England that was one of the only two Kingdoms that agreed to unite to form, “The Union”.
So now, having established that the United Kingdom is without doubt a Kingdom, and not a single country, we Scots should be asking ourselves the following questions.
As the Union is legally a union of only two Kingdoms, why is Westminster running The United Kingdom as if it were the country of England devolving the country of England’s powers to three subservient countries when Scotland is legally a fully, equally sovereign, partner in the two kingdom Union?
Secondly, Why is Westminster funding the country of England directly as the United Kingdom while deciding what funds that country of England will allow their subservient satellite countries to get by way of Block Grants?
Why too are they funding the three countries differently?
N.I. gets most, (on a per capita basis), than comes Scotland and Wales gets less than Scotland and N.I.
Send questions, (on a post card), to Prime Minister, Ms T. May, c/o The Palace of Westminster, London, England
Having read the article, that passage quoted by Stuart is very interesting. It seems that Michel Barnier has been given a ‘check list’ by Theresa May and Westminster of what Britain would like to negotiate …and as pointed out ….guess who’s missing from the ‘special situations’ part in that part of the wish-list.
If this turns out to be true, then Theresa May will ignite the sheer fury of most of the people in Scotland. It would be another absolute confirmation by Westminster that Scotland’s wishes and voice will continue to be ignored, even though we were given assurances and promises on the eve of the Scottish Referendum two years ago.
If it transpires that Gibraltar and NI (and even London for that matter) are to be given some sort of special status with the EU, then I cannot, for the life of me, see how Westminster can hold onto Scotland. For most Scots, the contempt, arrogance and sheer ignorance being displayed towards Scotland should now be a severe wake-up call to most Scots. Even No voters will be squirming and twisting on the spot in trying to talk their way out of this one. Simply stating ‘…but we’re Better Together’ or ‘…we should wait and see how it all pans out before making a decision on Scotland’s future’ won’t cut it this time. No voters at this moment must be quietly wondering just what has happened. Everything has gone pear-shaped after their arguments against independence from two years ago …and those arguments must feel like ash in their mouths. No wonder there is not a peep out of any of them except from the usual mealy-mouth pieces of Davidson, Dugdale and Rennie.
As to Michel Barnier himself …well, it seems the EU has chosen not just an attack dog to deal with Britain’s EU exit, it intends to unleash a Tyrannosaur. This guy is going to beast Britain.
Hard Brexit …I think it could be much worse than that from what I’m reading of Barnier. And if Britain has pulled a dodgy deal with Nissan while still part of the EU, then this is just going to fuel the fury of the EU …and Mr Barnier.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/27/who-is-michelbarnier-the-frenchman-in-charge-of-the-eus-brexit-n/
Hi Robert Peffers
I have copied a lot of your pieces about the Union and put bits up in answers on Facebook. Folk are very positive and want to learn more of their history.
Well done.
Let’s clear something up here. Just as the NI decision does not cover how A50 might be triggered so the government paper never said that Scotland was extinguished. In the later case all that it says is that it doesn’t matter as far as the rest of their discussion goes. In the former it mentions an Act of Parliament rather than a vote and as it’s the requirement of parliamentary approval that’s subject of cases in England no judgement has been given.
Furthermore the decision in the NI case says that simply activating A50 does not end the GFA as it’s possible to meet it’s requirements without the UK being a member of the EU. If anything as losses go this one isn’t too bad as it reinforces the point that all Westminster have is a mandate to leave the EU and not one to arbitrarily decide the manner of that departure. Certainly given the GFA there is an obligation to consult with the RoI at a minimum as far as NI goes.
Also the exclusion of Scotland is duly noted. The closing of the Scottish Parliament was with the agreement of them so doesn’t present a precedent for a royal dictating to them. They’d already voted to go into abeyance to reconvene as part the joint Westminster Parliament of Great Britain. This is where not being able to alter the constitution obligates Holyrood and/or our MPs to ensure proper procedure and advice the Queen of Scots as to whether she has a Prerogative to issue a notification under A50 that affects Scotland.
Fishing will be one of the very first bargaining chips used by Westminster in any kind of deal with the rEU to keep London afloat.
Liz g, Indyref2, just logged back in, amazed at your stamina in keeping the comments going through the ‘night shift’. Thankyou! Sorry, I bowed out at 2.30.
Thanks also to Orri for your summary at 11.17 this a.m. Good to read.
It would be fascinating to be a fly on the wall at the legal discussions around our situation – wish I’d studied Constitutional law now!
I think the bottom line is that TM’s coat is on an increasingly shoogly peg and Queenie might not be purring in the near future! Could be an interesting few months!
Chic McGregor says:
“Fishing will be one of the very first bargaining chips”
correct, we’re watching 2 thieves dividing the loot in public view, none of them able to utter the “s” word. Not a chance they will offer fishing to the scottish parliament.
very important article this-and only 3 words long!
@ Dr Jim
I respect your point of view. It’s a valid one. I served 25 years and still wear a poppy. I how ever remember all war dead and the futility of it all. Not just our own. Remember it’s a working man and now a woman that’s on ether end of a bayonet.
It is worth reading about the cenotaph and the grave of the unknown soldier and how the C of E hijacked the proceedings.
Do the farmers, fishermen and car makers believe that the vow will be delivered. Do they also believe in pots of gold at the end of rainbows and fairies at the bottom of the garden.
Liz g,
“Rock @ 11.09
Naw Rock it’s no us that are completely deluded.
We’re the ones who are trying to change things remember.
But if we are to use their system to change the system,we need to understand it first.”
Are we still trying to understand the system after 300 years of colonisation by England?
We must certainly be much more stupid than all other colonised people on the planet who managed to get rid of the colonisers in far less than 300 years.
After more than 300 years of this “equal” union, our MPs, outnumbered 10 to 1 at Westminster, cannot get a single law passed.
Belgium has not even existed for 200 years yet its truly federal regions can prevent Belgium signing an international agreement.
We are completed deluded about our pretendy “sovereignty”.
The only colonised “sovereign” people on the planet.
Imperial radio 4
Today they were going on about hallowe’en being imported from America. That’s how much they know about the history of the uk.
It really is just another English Channel. Bells on sunday C of E church services and the bloody archers. Just state propaganda.
Thank goodness you can get the shipping forecast on line
Hi Rock at 7:02 pm
You typed,
“Are we still trying to understand the system after 300 years of colonisation by England?
We must certainly be much more stupid than all other colonised people on the planet who managed to get rid of the colonisers in far less than 300 years.”
You appear to disregard the propaganda that has been poured over the Scots, Irish and Welsh (and English!) over the past two or three hundred years; about how Britain is GREAT, we are all British together; it was a British industrial revolution; Britain had a habit of winning wars, wherever, and so on.
Some of this propaganda has been retained in the psyche of of fellow inhabitants of these islands over the years, although, as can be seen by comments btl on Wings (and elsewhere), the plebs (us) have been wakening up.
It has nothing to do with stupidity and everything to do with what we have been fed as “truth”. We have begun to question this truth – stupid people wouldn’t bother.
Rock @ 7.02
What’s your point??
I you don’t agree we are sovereign
But you want Scotland to be independent
How do you think we should do it?
To be fair, I think Barnier’s remarks are down to the fact that N.Ireland and Gibraltar will have a land border with the EU.
@Rock
Scotland is Sovereign. It expressed its sovereignty (I fing hate spelling that word) on the 18th Sepetmber 2014 about whether we wanted to be Independent, and said “not yet”.
Next time Scotland expresses its Sovereignty, perhaps next Autumn, hopefully it will be a “YES we do”. And that will be absolute.
Patience mon brave!