Fluid times
Posted on
July 26, 2016 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
A brief note on the current futility of political commentary.
Remember that? Well, let’s see how it really works.
Here’s a couple of days before the EU referendum vote:
And here’s a month after the vote:
And here’s a little reminder of something from page 3 of The Wee Blue Book:
It’s almost like we were telling the truth all along.
England looking to shoot itself in the foot after shooting itself in the head?
Well, who could blame them .. they made this themselves … this mess.
The hypocrisy of Project Fear Marks I, II & III never fails to amaze.
‘A week is a long time in politics’
And ain’t that the truth. 🙂
Its right up there with ‘as circumstances change, so will policy’ (apologies to Mr Salmond for paraphrasing).
Neatly done Rev.
And yet, you can bet your house that there will still be folk trying to claim a border would get put up between Scotland and England when the next referendum comes along. And you can also bet there are still people who would believe it.
Passport controls, good idea, we want to know if mad mayhem ever tries to enter Scotland
The EU seem to want to make Brexit as uncomfortable as possible for the UK. Is this in everyone’s interest? I am guessing that they want to put other member states off leaving but at the end of the day a good trade deal would benefit them too, no?
Passport borders obviously not going to happen but some kind of customs border seems likely over time.
Take a look at the Swiss/German border:
https://terryentoure.blogspot.ch/2016/07/is-that-wallonian-pencil-in-your-pocket.html
Why would something similar not eventually happen at Scotland/England or Northern Ireland/Ireland borders?
What colour you going to use for the Wee Sexit Book which doe exatcly what this article does for every one of Project Fears scare tactics? Pink maybe?
Who could have predicted all this just a year ago ? I sometimes muse that independence is being forced on us by events and Karma, rather than from anything else we have done. Events have aligned for us rather than against. We must make the most of it.
Its getting hard to keep up with Theresa May’s policy u-turns.
Which has me wondering if she actually has any idea what’s she’s doing?
Does she still stand by her claim in 2014 that if Scotland were to be become independent she would seek passport controls at the border between Scotland and England.
Because if as she said in 2016 that after Brexit Irish Border controls would be inevitable and now insists there would be no border controls on the Irish Border.
How could she then justify having a passport control at the border between a independent Scotland and England?.
“Why would something similar not eventually happen at Scotland/England or Northern Ireland/Ireland borders?”
Why would it? There are vast differences in the prices of some things in Ireland/Northern Ireland now, and have been for years, but people still cross freely.
http://utv.ie/News/2015/02/18/Increase-in-cross-border-shopping-from-north-to-south-31998
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/270m-slump-in-crossborder-shopping-28773903.html
http://edelivery.net/2015/12/cross-border-sales-and-euro-parity-see-irelands-nightline-hit-record-growth/
@ghostly606 indeed & what can be more uncomfortable to the UKL than actually losing a large part or two to be left as a rump rUK while Scotland & Northern Ireland glow with the benefits of staying in the EU as a shining example to any other members wishing to leave?
Eventually found a report of EU funding and jobs at risk for this year;
£5,969 millions in investment and 171,000 jobs are directly supported by the EU
Staying with the UK seems to be a real problem
BTW what colour you planning for the Sexit Book wherein you list how Brexit shows the Project Fear scare stories were lies just as you have done in this article? The Wee Pink Book maybe?
I suspect the requirement for border controls would be over taken by the need to make it difficult for Scotland
The rights and wrongs, legal or otherwise are irrelevant
The Jocks must be taught their place
There are so many elephants in the room the elephants must be the size of mice.
Shock horror – Wings admits “we were telling the truth all along.”
And they were doing it deliberately!!1!
(Copyright Lord Foulkes-Sake, all rights reserved)
I can’t see how there wont be a Scotland England hard border in the scenario that Scotland is in and England is out of the EU. There isn’t an example I can think of where a non-EU member has an open border policy with a member state. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible, only that it may be improbable.
I note some of our papers are trying to make out there’s a schism between the “powers that be” in the SNP and new members e.g. over the upcoming Conference programme.
Your piece is timely in that the fiasco at both the Republican and Democrat Conventions in the US illustrates how easily divisive issues can ruin reputations.
I’m a recent SNP member and can see how a few years ago the Party was essentially single issue ( i.e. getting power for an independence vote ) but is now a party of power with all that entails.
Thank heavens we have some cool heads at the top of this Party to field what will inevitably mischevious headlines in the weeks ahead.
Presumably this logic also applies to those arguing against Scotland leaving the EU? i.e. that they have “a vested interest in making things sound like they’d be as difficult as possible”. It follows then that in the event Scotland does exit as part of the UK, pragmatism will prevail and everything will be, as you say, sorted out quickly and cleanly with life continuing with as little disruption and upheaval as humanly possible.
Yup, you are that word, Rev – prescient.
Another thing that made me gawp at your abilities to ‘read’ was that Gove quote, you used on the back page of the Wee Black.
Because it was 50/50 in the polls, I was coming down in favour of Brexit, due to the avalanche of bile on social media, the brain washing of anti EU media repeated endlessly. I thought, woah, Brexit might happen, no, surely not?
Hopefully, the idiots are doing most of the heavy lifting for us, but the Borders nonsense will be repeated.
Stevescosmic
I was in Germany two years ago and drove into Switzerland and didn’t even know it, no border, there may have been a sign? I only realised when I noticed the prices were in franks. And later when I realised how expensive everything suddenly got!
@steviescosmic
Think harder. Norway/Sweden.
If you drove around Europe in the 70 and 80s it was obvious that Europe had de facto open borders with currency swoppable with ease in restaurants and shops for decades. Creating the Euro made sense in the core countries.
The UK was tedious though with queues and currency exchange. Still is.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36886727
steviescosmic
Lichtenstein and Austria!
https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidJFHalliday/status/449511995776057344
Here is another longer video of crossing between Norway and Sweden
A bit boring as nothing really happens, other than having to stop to pay the toll fee for the road 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEf6v8A9ZnQ
Borders. How they turn out depends on the deal made with the EU. And that refers to Ireland, and hopefully iScotland. If it is a Norway/Switzerland arrangement then the borders will be very open.
The deal between the EU and rUK (hopefully, rather than UK) could however take different forms. It is obvious many of the hardcore Brexiteers want free movement of goods, but not people. EU may not be up for this. It is quite conceivable Leave means Hard Leave. In which case it’s difficult to see virtually invisible borders.
Truth is, I don’t think WM hasn’t moved forward with any plans or proposals of what they want. Which is why the rhetoric keeps changing!
I do detect a change in the SG/SNP’s position since the weekend. Before it was a softer ‘protect Scotland’s interests’, while now it is closer to simply ‘keep Scotland in the EU’.
Shug
Really our beloved brothers making things difficult, certainly not! For all the talk the Rev points out the reality as a posed to the rhetoric. And that reality is about to hit the brexateers hard very shortly. Brexit will mean brexit, sure if by brexit you mean a cobbled together fudging of existing legislation, existing border controls, existing trade agreements, just with a plastic Union Jack stuck on.
Just as the no vote lost the referendum after they won it by loosening the actual battle, the brexit pups are going to be mauled by a big European dug. And Farage knew it, his plan was to lose, but he won and has ran away. Boris also wanted to lose, and dropped out, forget the Gove incident, he ran away too. Cameron wanted to win and when he didn’t he ran away as far as his legs would carry him.
Imagine a country where the leaders had a campaign but had no plans if they won? Imagine if you wanted to move house, sell your car, so you could move to a different town, surely you would arrange your new home, job, before selling your old one? Imagine a biscuit factory changing products by shutting its production line before development of its new line?
Imagine a country scrapped its old aircraft carrier with building its replacement first, or having planes that could fly off the thing, imagine a country that invaded another, without a plan if they won?
Welcome to Great Britain,? And they question us why we want independence?
There isn’t going to be a border between Scotland and England. For Gods sake!
@scav
Norway and Sweden do not have an open border policy. As both are Schengen members passports are not required and there are no immigration controls between the two, but customs controls apply and physical checks are active at border crossings.
I don’t know which is sadder, the same project fear lies or the same people believing them?
It’s maybe true enough that we are indeed too stupid!
How about the Swiss / German border?
Well here is a video of that
A bit more pragmatic with a slight chicane and speed bump to slow you down, but that’s it 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKwxOb5C9ww
I think initially they would put in border controls, out of spite.
However, I feel sure a compromise would be agreed after they come to terms with reality.
Even then, it is a price to pay, but remember it would also effect their own, as the sell everything to Scotland, not all reflected in officials like Gers.
To interfere with cross border trade would hurt them financially too, just when they cannot afford to do so. They have big bills and desires to fulfill. So if they did, it would not last long.
Border between Scotland and Emgland – 96 miles. Border between Sweden (in EU) and Norway (not in EU) is 1000 miles. No problems there. The rev is right – people just get on with things – here is wikipedia’s take on the Norway/Sweden border
Both countries are members of the Schengen Area, and there are therefore no immigration controls. However, only Sweden is part of the European Union, so there are customs checks. These are performed by the Norwegian Customs and Excise Authorities and the Swedish Customs Service.[3] These checks are sporadic along the Norway–Sweden border. Cars are usually not forced to stop. Both countries emphasise checks against other countries. For flights and ferries between the countries, there are no formal passport checks at airport and ferry ports, but identity cards are needed to board.
Before 2001, the countries were not part of the Schengen Area. There was even then no passport check. Passengers were led to the passport control at international airports, but could pass simply by showing the ticket and/or speaking and looking Scandinavian. There were more road customs stations then, some have been closed for cost reasons.
The Yoon media are clearly just going to say whatever shit they want again and hope that we are stuipid enough to keep falling for their hypocritical lies and falsehoods.
The SNP are going to have to be at the top of their game this time if they are to have any chance of overcoming the British establishment lies.
Rancid The Graun do enjoy a bit of jock baiting.
Blammo!
“Implying that border controls would mean a return to the “bitter days” of the border disputes of hundreds of years ago, May also claimed that “we already know that a yes vote would mean that, when it became separate, Scotland would no longer be part of the European Union.”
She said European Commission president José Manuel Barroso “has been quite clear about that”,
“Buried deep in Alex Salmond’s white paper is the admission that, just like the last Labour government, a separate Scotland would pursue a looser immigration policy.
“That would undermine the work we have done since 2010, and the continuing UK could not allow Scotland to become a convenient landing point for migration into the United Kingdom.”
Severin quotes Thatcher 2 but doesn’t actually say that the “work we have down” totally failed, got reneged, on all her vote Tory and stop immigrants stuff.
Two years later, rancid old Graun explain just how shite Thatcher 2 actually is at being a UKOK minister
http://archive.is/ELBaX
Immigration and refugees
Her most recent Immigration Act was designed in her words “to create a hostile environment” for illegal migrants by a package of measures including requiring landlords to check on the immigration status of all prospective tenants. This culminated in the infamous Operation Vaken “Go Home” vans touring immigrant communities and as a result of which only 11 people actually left the country.
When the net migration figures came out – as they do every three months – May always sent out her immigration minister, James Brokenshire, to explain why they had failed yet again to deliver the promised deep cuts in net migration.
In cabinet, she blamed the rest of the government for giving up on tackling rising immigration and turned down their pleas to remove overseas students from the target. But she pressed ahead with immigration policies that including splitting up an estimated 33,000 families in Britain because they don’t earn enough and refused to put any time limit on the detention of immigration detainees.”
That refusal of Thatcher 2 to remove foriegn students from her targets is the one that’s caught the Brain family and had a massive impact on Scottish uni foreign student applications.
Oh to have been a fly on the wall the day that our First Minister met May,
The meeting lasted 45 Mins apparently and I think that conversation would have been quite a frosty one.
I can’t imagine the New leader of the conservative party approaching people like standard life now and vying for them to vote to stay in the UK the way that Cameron did.
Companies who invested in the Tory party such as that one will be few and far between because they all trade with the EU heavily so the interests have changed.
They won’t win any debates and they won’t be saying things won’t change. It’s a mammoth task now for the better together camp the ONLY thing they have is a bargaining chip is the blind faith in the Union and I don’t think for one second it’s enough!
Onward!
Hi all,
Long term lurker, first time poster.
Agree with most (~90%) of BTL comments, 20/20 hindsight is great, but the Rev having 20/20 foresight is even better.
@ Les Wilson: Do you think that the spaceport/airport at Prestwick could be the very port that would show the long distance exports (outwith the EU) where Rosyth and others being used for immediate connection to the EU? You know, to show up the GERs debacle.
Roughly 10 years ago I was inter-railing through eastern europe, only time there was a border check was going to Croatia who weren’t a member state back then.
Martin Richmond
Are you talking about goods or people?
For goods, trucks have to stop to have paperwork checked and stamped
People don’t stop
You can see that in the video I posted 🙂
May, bordering on insanity.
Enny Meeny Miny Moe…where should all these borders go? …er!
https://archive.is/E2yMd
PS:
Labour Party rules ‘misapplied’ when NEC voted to guarantee Jeremy Corbyn spot on leadership ballot, court told
https://archive.is/GCp9T
I do think May might be playing a different game, her tack of not issueing order 50 until all the parts of the Uk agree, could be her way of escaping from brexit, knowing now, how the UK (england) will be effected.
Then she can blame us, and poss Northern Ireland for her evading brexit. She is not prepared to sacrifice the Union, blah blah.
There is no depths that the Tories will sink too.Be prepared for more and more of how precious the Union is to her.(england)
But all to find her brexit escape.
OT, absolute state of this…
https://twitter.com/FrankieRTR/status/757357373312864256
If Scotland votes to leave UK and remain in EU, the Scottish / English border will be the EU / English border and will have to be respected as the French/English border at Calais.
Scotland will be the larger, international community negotiating their border with narrow, nationalistic England separated from EU.
The border Project Fear scares from Indy1 in 2014 simply vanish and Scotland will hold the upper hand.
Pigeons coming home to roost, Project Fear.
I’ve driven several times between Norway and Sweden in the 90s and never once saw any sign of a border check, not even a shed for the border staff. Also, just watch the opening sequences of “The Bridge”. No border control.
The Herald today has a report on Ms Sturgeon’s speech and a small insert from a Professor Gallagher on the subject of ‘hard’ borders. Essentially he was saying that there would have to be a hard border if Scotland became independent. I think he may have pedalled the same story during the Insured because he was involved in the Better Together campaign.
However, the Herald rather undermined his argument/assertion by prominently positioning the story of Theresa May’s visit to NI and her comments about the NI/Ireland border directly under his piece about ‘hard’ borders.
I don’t know if the Herald did it deliberately but it did undermine and underline the ridiculous position the Unionists get themselves into on this issue.
Best described as sitting astride the (border) fence right on the pointy bit. Ouch!
I think I can see where Thatcher 2 is coming from:-
The Prime Sinister who is leading the threats and bullying against Scotland, warns that if we don’t do as we are told, they will threaten and bully Scotland.
Good tactic they have adopted in changing their minds every other day on there will be won’t be Border Posts.
Everyone will be afraid to challenge them on it in case they changed their minds again while you clear your throat.
They seem to adopted this ploy from Dipity Dug.
Constantly change your stance on policies and it makes you for and against everything.
The Petition against Blatant BBC Bias is now on 89,697 and counting.
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum
Macca73 says:
“Companies who invested in the Tory party such as that one will be few and far between because they all trade with the EU heavily so the interests have changed.”
Indeed. In our world we somtimes forget who the Tories really represent, and it ain’t ordinary members and voters! Many of their ‘investors’ must be furious at Brexit. That probably goes a long way to explain the chaos, inaction and lack of direction.
The EU ref was meant to be a show, a sham, then it would be lost and it would be business as usual.
The only possible issue England could have with either Ireland or Scotland would arise if both those were in Schengen. The Irish Republic is not a Schengen member. So England has nothing to fear as both countries ( Scotland & Eire) would operate external border checks, and both are not anywhere as easy to sail a dingy to across the Straights of Dover.
These scares about passports are as credible as the tooth fairy. It is not in England’s interest to impose those borders, and it is their interest they are looking to protect first and foremost.
We Scots have to embrace every opportunity that our membership of the EU will bring. We need to make every effort to export, to grow our tourism, and to fully participate in everything the EU does. We can have a very bright future when Scots decide what is best for Scots.
How many of us really care if there were passport checks and customs? It is not that long and a lot of it is not that densely populated – Kielder Forest for a start.
We might end up importing more directly via our ports, which would probably reduce the amount of traffic. annd we might then see more clearly how much (or how little) we do import from England and Wales.
Maggie May needs to be pinned down on this at PM question time (once article 50 and indyref 2 is announced – all in good time):
Will there be a hard border between and BREXIT UK and an Indy (EU) Scotland?
Keep it ready, Angus!
If/when article 50 is invoked and the IndyRef 2 campaign started, I wonder if Theresa May will agree to a TV debate with our FM. Will she accept the challenge, or will she bottle it, like Cameron. Unlike Cameron, she doesn’t have so many red tory shields willing and able to do the dirty work for her in the next campaign. They destroyed themselves shielding Cameron during IndyRef 1.
Croompenstein
Before the birth of twitter you could see the old buffoon sitting alone on the park bench, and you could avoid him, now they can fester together egging each other on to be loonier that the others.
The fact an ex British army officer, even though he was a tanky, would associate himself with Spanner calling a young female member of parliament horrendous names speaks volumes to the falling standards of the officer core. Would you tolerate that behaviour if it was your daughter! Man’s a Cad!
Effijy says:
26 July, 2016 at 1:28 pm
They seem to adopted this ploy from Dipity Dug.
Constantly change your stance on policies and it makes you for and against everything.
Aye, it worked really well for KD at the Holyrood election in May. 🙂
“The lady’s not for turning”. Oh yes she is. Oh no she’s not. Is she doing an audition for a future role in pantomime? Seems to me that she’s a natural. Oh yes she is.
The Tories have their rabid hinterland to contend with. 98% of Daily Mail readers want out of Europe NOW. No negotiations, no foot dragging.
Oh and Sturgeon’s EU dream is in tatters. Tatters.
http://archive.is/LKN5K
Luigi says:
“If/when article 50 is invoked and the IndyRef 2 campaign started, I wonder if Theresa May will agree to a TV debate”
Hadn’t thought that far ahead. Perhaps YES collectively should take a different approach now.
What has May, the leader of a blatantly English nationalist party, got to do with the Scottish constitutional decision? Apart from putting us in this position!
Last time there was a coalition in WM, which because of the LibDems in power and the presence of Scottish Labour PMs in opposition, meant WM was very relevant to Scotland. Now WM should be completely irrelevant. We have virtually no representation, our MPs exercise no real power, and the institution forces policies like Brexit on us.
IndyRef2 will come about because of WM actions. Perhaps they should be to told to ‘bow out’ of the decision Scotland has to make, forced on us because of them. Last time there were muttering from the Unionists of, ‘it’s for the Scots to decide’, even though WM interfered relentlessly. This time, the fact that it is Scotland’s decision should be official Yes policy?
When WM chips in, perhaps it should be retorted by, “you caused this, now do no further damage to the democratic process”.
You know, I feel really quite sad for my many English friends who voted Remain. Scotland has an escape route to get out of this mess if it will just have the bottle to take it this time. English Remainers however are really in a much more difficult position, especially being led by a prime minister who was supposedly pro-Remain (aye, right) but is adamant on achieving Exit.
Luigi says:
26 July, 2016 at 1:41 pm
If/when article 50 is invoked and the IndyRef 2 campaign started, I wonder if Theresa May will agree to a TV debate with our FM. Will she accept the challenge, or will she bottle it, like Cameron. Unlike Cameron, she doesn’t have so many red tory shields willing and able to do the dirty work for her in the next campaign. They destroyed themselves shielding Cameron during IndyRef 1.
Well said, that was the point I was making in my previous post Luigi. I don’t think that May has the bottle for any of it if the fight comes to her doorstep. Every argument is lost. The only things she and other members of the Better Together old guard have now is to try and fight the old currency battle. It’s the last card they have in my opinion.
It’s to that end that Scotland must take it’s time over the Scottish currency question and propose options which take us away from this nonsensical union. If Nicola has the answers to that point then there’s NOTHING left and I think she knows it.
With the value of the pound dwindling a fresh new currency from Scotland who wishes to remain in the EU with backing from big business could eradicate the whole thing in one hit! That’s too much for May to stomach.
The “tatters” are from the Daily Mail stringer in Europe, David Coburn. What better authority could there be. He demands Brexit but not Indy for Scotland.
http://archive.is/a3DXE
Just an observation from watching Nicola yesterday. I thought her body language and demeanour were quite relaxed, the most I’ve seen since the referendum.
Coupled with what she said about her ‘tests’, I’m wondering if private polling is encouraging?
We need to start moving, and sending out signs, because today BBC reports 2.3% drop in Scottish house prices. Brexit is going to be a long, slow decline.
4 weeks on, and Ryanair, banks, Virgin etc are now all looking for EU premises, and other cities are set to benefit.
Borders will be the least of the UKs problems, because this is only the beginning.
Alex Massies latest piece is interesting. I normally expect dripping bile, and yes, there are jibes, but he acknowledges no one can disagree with the 5 tests set by Nicola, but he asserts she has set them knowing, they are only achieved by an independent Scotland in the EU.
Oh dear, how absolutely vile.
The first comment posted may be the best I’ve ever seen.
Building a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic would most likely re-ignite the Troubles, as well as severely impacting Ireland’s economy. No sensible politician wants that.
Building a hard border between England and Scotland would harm both economies, and would probably cause resentment. No sensible politician wants that.
They’ll exploit the fuck out of it for propaganda though.
Rev Stu said:
Why would it? There are vast differences in the prices of some things in Ireland/Northern Ireland now, and have been for years, but people still cross freely.
They will soon be in different Economic areas. Circumstances are changing.
Customs borders are forbidden within the EU, while passport borders are discretionary and only permitted at the Schengen border. Once you are outside the EU and wish to impose a tax rate on goods that is different across your borders you will have the levers you need to protect your taxation policy. Right now, those levers are not available due to EU. They soon will be when UK leaves. Do you remember when duty free really was duty free?
NI is leaving the EU but Ireland isn’t. England is leaving the EU but maybe Scotland isn’t. As a consequence, I expect a soft customs border in time. Seriously, just go to Constanz and take a look. Switzerland and Germany are strong trading partners but still have an active customs border, entirely due to non-EU status of Switzerland.
Everywhere around the EU there is a customs border, sometimes policed more from the non-EU side, sometimes the other way round. These are often soft, porous borders but borders nonetheless.
“There isn’t an example I can think of where a non-EU member has an open border policy with a member state.”
Jersey and IOM are not in the EU……It’s not impossible at all.
Who wants to go to England anyway?
That WBB quote has inspired me to dig my copy out and start posting sections of it on twitter!
I fly to Ireland and to England ie London and Birmingham regularly. I carry my EU passport. I wish to have an EU Scotland passport which May and her cronies wish to deny my rights
What’s the problem brexiters head south and get your Wee red , white and blue passport? Nobody else cares.
Does the Brexit means Brexit PM actually know what she has in mind? The details? The strategy? The road map?
The “closet” Engxiter, May, during the campaign was for remaining.
Can she really lead a “government” where the exiters sre holding key positions?
It is revealing that there have been no “leaks” from within. Usually, the well placed msm hacks start to flag up aspects. So far nothing!!
All except Nicola Sturgeon and the five key points, a good advanced strategy. And Juncker of the EU Commission, making clear there will be mo “sweeties” for Westminster. EU already scunnered by the antics of Downing Street.
Great farce. Dawning, perhaps, on the English that once you are out, you are out and marginalized.
The EU have tholed you long enough and probably glad that you want to go. What remains? Ruritania, bunting, changing of the guard, bunting, ongoing birthday celebrations, fog in the Channel, the ebc.
They (the English) are fur it noo!! Brought about by their own hands.
Still, they have still the Queen!! And dreams of empire, ww1 and 2 and war films rerun ad nauseam on the box and the sas and and and….
The unifying cry of the Yoon press appears to be that the FM is travelling too much and not doing what she is supposed to.
Which is what? If she listened to them she would be emptying bins in her constituency or giving the contents of her house and home to ‘poor’ people. What exactly is it she is not doing?
Well of course she is getting above herself, being profiled positively in the international press. Deceiving everyone by pretending she does not want Independence because Scotland is too shit to do anything and why don’t they know it?
Toothless, slavering, impotent unionist rage, don’t you just love it?
I demand the brexiters PLAN a, b C, ………y,x, z, a1, a2….
How can I decide?
oops they have already- without a plan.
Having just saw and heard the best advert for an independent Scotland on a Leven to Kirkcaldy bus today a hard border between our countries would be a benefit.
Himself wife and family are here on holiday, and if he persists with his loud insulting manner to practically everything he saw its only a matter of time till his face assaults a bunch of fives.
He’s the best incentive to independence I have come across.
I wouldn’t care if they stuck a border up. I’d even help them build the wall or dig the moat.
Our future is with the EU, and if England wants to have a tantrum it’s best dealt with by turning our backs on them.
ScottishPsyche says:
It’s a fascinating angle the Unionist keep coming back to. They claim it’s all a rouse to get more money out of WM and the English taxpayer. Like, the Express’s take of NS’s speech with it’s five points is … blackmail, they claimed.
Do they honestly believe her stance to purely to extract favour? It is so far from reality.
It is just propaganda, and general aimed down south. It’s trying to use English nationalism against us, and it’s a very dangerous tactic.
Perhaps, of course, true BritNats believe their Greater England and all that goes with it is so wonderous that no would would actually want to leave!
Getting well fed up of hearing, but this is/was a UK vote and ‘that’s democracy’.
Let’s be crystal fucking clear on this. A central plank of Better Together’s campaign was that the only way Scotland could guarantee staying in the EU was by voting NO to independence. A majority of the electorate duly voted NO.
With total consistency in this recent referendum on the EU itself, Scotland voted to remain within the EU. What part of ‘Scotland values its membership’ is not understood by either the media or central government?
Better yet, what part of for every pledge or assurance broken there is a natural and moral consequence, are they not grasping?
You cannot pledge in one ballot to keep Scotland within the EU and in the next remove that right when Scotland has voted consistently pro on the matter.
We did not ask for this ballot. We did not ask to be put in this situation and we have broken no faith with the outcome of 2014.
Westminster government on the other hand have driven a horse and fucking cart through pretty much ALL of its pledges and assurances. So if you are a politico, policy wonk, meeja type or party Klingon suck it up. You are the guys wearing the black hats. You did betray the vote and the trust placed in you almost two years ago and whilst for some of us this has come as no real shock, a good number of folk whose vote you counted on in 2014 are probably ready to ask some pretty pointed questions about now. They have EVERY reason to.
Andrew Mclean
The campaign from the unionists will be to exaggerate the difficulties and then add some
I am not saying they are real but they will be presented as such and they control the BBC and the media
We have to state the Brexit impact on specific industries to force it home to people. How many farmers in Fluffy’s constituency receive EU grants – what happens when they stop?
What will be the impact on Edinburgh investment jobs if they are excluded from the EU market??
Has the MOD transferred their Frigate order to India yet ?
So Teresa May wants a border and passport controls between Scotland and England.
Who cares. Is this really the best she can come up with. I couldn’t care less if there is a border, we will get on with our own lives and sod the rest of them south of the border.
John Edgar says:
Honestly? I reckon they don’t have a clue what to do next. I think they are waiting for events to overtake them so they can simply be reactive.
how can they possibly resolve … business interests which want free market, xenophobes who want sealed borders, nostaglists who want the 50s back, the EU which won’t give a freemarket without free movement, Ireland, and as big a thorn as any – Scotland digging its heals in further refusing to actually leave the EU.
“We might end up importing more directly via our ports, which would probably reduce the amount of traffic. annd we might then see more clearly how much (or how little) we do import from England and Wales.”
We might end up exporting directly via our ports and then see how much we don’t currently get credit for as Scottish exports!
Macart 3:52pm
You’re forgetting that “we all knew” it was an absolute certainty that the Tories would win in 2015 and we would have an EU referendum and voted on that basis…
Or so they like to claim.
I wonder if Berwick and Carlisle residents might have a bit of a rethink about where the Scotland/England border should be drawn post Art 50?
In ref to hard borders, we have the elephant in the room, REMOVE trident now please! Gulp!
@Paul D
Public record must be embarrassing for the poor dears right enough. That and the fact that folk generally tend to have a memory.
Their attempts at rewriting history are a bit on the cack handed side.
From the way IndyRef2 is shaping up, it looks like we have two choices.
Vote ‘Yes’ for a fairer more prosperous Scotland, or vote ‘No’ for an instantaneous painfully slow tortuous death spread over an infinite time line.
Hmm, decisions, decisions.
Well all i can say if we get this hard border and no trade for Scotland with England i will not lose any sleep at night.
You want project fear English tory scum then hows this you feckers no cheap petrol no cheap electricity no cheap whisky.
So still want to piss us off hmmm?
Just think Scots all that extra electricity and petrol we could actually sell it to our EU pals instead of it getting stolen from us.
What will England do who gives a flying fuck, but hey dont worry England you are always banging on about the blitz spirit so now you can have it all again as you sit by candle light eating cold beans and your petrol is £10 a litre.
Just think you will be doing your bit for world CO2 emmisions.
Time we started playing project fear right back at them though our project fear is reality,no trade works both ways and anything England can provide can be bought from eleswhere like oh say Germany and France.
I wonder if this outrage from the Yoon press about the FM is that for the first time the democratic deficit between Scotland and England is being examined critically from outside the UK?
As for a hard border, I am becoming more and more attracted to the idea.
@macart
Always enjoy your musings…but you’re always on top form when just a little bit annoyed!! Brings out the best in you 🙂 keep it up (but watch the blood pressure, I know it’s hard)
I’m finding it all quite amusing…I’ve yet to read anything in the corporate media that remotely resembles anything Nicola said. They really can spin a story off it’s axis…never let the truth get in the way of a good headline.
I think the threat of a soft/hard border is not the strongest of threats…just my opinion…coz right now I think there could be one or two (thousand) volunteers to help her in that particular threat…maybe we could have a vote on it I know where my X will go 😉
If the English want to put up borders thats up to them all they will be doing is making themselves look like even bigger sh1t-stirring xenophobic idiots than they already are, and all it will do is keep the anti-brexit refugees from escaping into Scotland.
Here is a wee point I have not seen made very often, in regards to why an indy Scotland would be invited to continue within the EU.
While it is clear that the EU may wish to use brexit as a warning to others about the problems of leaving and all the negatives that go with it, an easy and formal transition into the EU by Scotland helps to re-enforce the message that the EU is still a desirable place to be.
In that respect, WM will have a hard time dealing with the EU, but Scotland would be met with wide open arms, it is simple pragmatism.
Where would up to their eye balls in Debt England get the money to pay for a Scottish Border?
Their long term cash cow, Scotland, won’t be contributing!
A 90 Mile long Berlin Wall, Machine gum towers every half mile, border guards, passport control and immigration officers. Why these workers will be asking if they can hide in the trucks coming into Scotland.
Not to show that they victimise Scotland, they would equally need to do exactly the same thing with N. Ireland,
They will need tougher security and passport checks at all the Ferry Crossings into England from the Republic of Ireland, France, Holland, Belgium, etc.
This should solve any unemployment issues in England.
All they need to do now is to find another country who can pay for it.
These idiots are trying to suggest that they will do more trade with their former slave colonies, such as Canada, Jamaica, Australia, New Zealand.
Do you think buying timber from Canada will have lower transportation costs than Scottish Timber?
Will sea food from Australia cost less than Scotland’s?
Will England Drink Jamaican Rum in place of Whisky?
These Westminster Clowns take us for Mugs, even suggesting this garbage.
I posted above, about hard borders could be answered with our request to remove trident now! We would of course also add all the rotting nuclear subs, poisoning Rosyth and surrounding area.
Enjoy the isolation you craved England you will soon be left to it! Europe doent want you and neither does Scotland!
There we have it, yet another UK prime minister who couldn’t find their own arse with a satnav.
Expect Scotland to be told if you vote for Independence, Westminster will charge us for using air.
And there are some citizens who would believe that, if its in the D Record.
Yes lets put up a hard border, I am pretty sure Rosyth will benefit from direct trade to the EU.
No more Scottish produce getting exported through Tillbury Docks etc.
Yes Scotland can run its own affairs, and reap the benefits.
England will wake up when its too late.
TICK TOCK.
@Kenny Campbell says: 26 July, 2016 at 2:46 pm:
“Jersey and IOM are not in the EU……It’s not impossible at all.”
Indeed so, Kenny, and neither is Guernsey or the Republic of Ireland, Which highlights the fact that the term, “Brexit”, is a total load of Westminster Establishment propaganda brainwashing. “Brexit”, is supposedly smart-arse shorthand for, “British Exit”, but the very obvious fact is it is, even if we accept it includes Scotland and N.I. that, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, is not now, and it never has been, either Great Britain or Britain in its entire existence. Thus, “Brexit”, will not take Britain out of the EU. It will only at most take out, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, from the EU and at least only England and Wales will go.
Here’s a wee sang – (to the tune of Ye canna throw yer Grannie aff the Bus),
Ye cannae pit yer Brexit oan tae us,
No ye cannae pit yer Brexit oan tae us,
No ye cannae pit yer Brexit
Kis it’s jist Englan’s exit,
Sae ye cannae pit yer Brexit oan tae us.
Robert Peffers.
Chorus
Singing Aye, Aye, Indy Indy Aye.
@Albert Herring says: 26 July, 2016 at 2:54 pm:
“Who wants to go to England anyway?”
Oh! I can think of a few – the present clutch of ex-unionist party members from Scotland who go to the HOL in order to get their subsidised booze, food and other privileges including the £300 per day attendance allowance for starters.
I understand a hard border between Scotland & England may be a bad thing but to be honest I don’t see a problem
In fact I’ve always wanted to see one if for nothing else than symbolic reasons
Graeme
@John Edgar says: 26 July, 2016 at 3:15 pm:
” … Still, they have still the Queen!! And dreams of empire, ww1 and 2 and war films rerun ad nauseam on the box and the sas and and and… “
And, of course, The Great British Bake off – soon to become the Great English f – off.
What a great job creation scheme it would be to build a hard border. All those border guards we’d need. Let’s go with it.
On the Irish border issues here is a very interesting article in the Irish Times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-three-state-union-may-be-answer-to-brexit-1.2734041
Also contains a summary of the reversal of fortunes of NI since partition as compared to Eire which is quite striking and something I did not fully appreciate.
The benefits to NI from the Union with UK look pretty dire but I suppose we have first hand experience of that too.
The Celtic Tiger may have some Cubs to welcome in the near future?
Only speaking for me personally, a border between Scotland and England would be an inconvenience, nothing more.
Trade could be effected but I reckon England would lose out on any deal. After all, they import the majority of their oil gas and electricity from Scotland.
They can not afford to jeopardise that.
They may threaten and scweem and scweem but as the Rev says at the end of the day “no government will cut off it’s nose to spite it’s face.
There will be an open border and a Scottish pound tied to the current pound. For now that makes sense to me.
Everything else quite simply is bollocks.
@ScottishPsyche says: 26 July, 2016 at 3:27 pm:
“The unifying cry of the Yoon press appears to be that the FM is travelling too much and not doing what she is supposed to”.
Yes Scottishpsyche, I had a good belly laugh at the plethora of Twitter burps at that subject too.
Last time I looked the Scottish Government had returned the best crime figures in the entire UK, the best educational results, the best NHS figures and the greatest voter satisfaction figures of all UK countries.
Strange that a leader of a UK country government with such figures is not doing the job she was elected to do. Perhaps the other UK government leaders should also start neglecting their duties and thus get the UK out of her mountainous National debt.
Express …
“Scotland independence is INEVITABLE if Sturgeon fails to block Brexit, Alex Salmond warns”
Block Brexit? Where did that come from? But then immediately says …
“A SECOND referendum on Scottish independence is “inevitable” if Scotland is not allowed to stay in the EU, Alex Salmond has said”
… which saying something quite different. Oh how they spin words!
It’s hilarious, I never thought the lies of 2014 would be picked off so easily.
Economy – check
Stability – check
Borders – check
EU – check
Defence – check
And many more..
Lol we could run tourist buses to the border outposts…the tourists could climb up to a special “hide” where they could watch the brexiters in their natural habitat! We could do a seasonal checklist to see if they stay in said locations or go south over winter.
Just having a wee joke brexiters, we know you don’t mean it when you call us Jocks whinging scrounging scumbags hmmmm…
This could be a whole lot of fun! 😉
@Cherry
Aye, there is a real pile up of the usual zoomer press misrepresenting context and meaning. I haven’t yet come across one that’s been either honest or even remotely representative.
They’re winding up their readerships something awful with the dog whistle narrative. As and when we do regain our independence, I don’t think I’d like to be in your average journo’s shoes. They’re going to have a bit of explaining to do.
How they are going to watch the great britnat f off on the box is a mystery though Robert when they are having blackouts all over their country from lack of electricity.
They can barely keep their lights on just now.
Though they could always tax the crap out the rich to pay for imported energy thats if they havnt all buggered off to Monaco by that time lmao.
“Last time I looked the Scottish Government had returned the best crime figures in the entire UK, the best educational results, the best NHS figures and the greatest voter satisfaction figures of all UK countries.”
Quite so, Mr P. Reminds me a bit about the great Marty Feldman joke on Round the Horne after a Fiona and Charles send-up of Brief Encounter. Comment by Kenneth Horne, “Ah, they knew how to make films in those days…..they just couldn’t be bothered.”
Substitute “run a country” for “make films” and you have the Westminster Way.
By the way, I’ve been going back and forth over an EU/Non-EU for over a week and there’s complete freedom of movement. If England wants to erect a barrier and cut its own throat economically, then it’s chocks away, Biggles, as far as I’m concerned.
O/T. No hearing much from Rory the Tory these days, is he still putting stanes on his cairn, ha,ha,ha…….mibbies he could start by building a dry stane dyke, it’s probably all they could afford.
There’s a good article in the National today about our currency options after independence.
The evil Daily Express certainly like to mix it up! Anything provocative to get the White Van Man and Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells and other assorted southern chimps riled up and spitting poison at us but at the end of the day they are only preaching to the converted, sad sad people. You cant stop an idea whose time has come……
Nothing new in `Hard Borders` between Scotland and the southern barbarians,
there was Hadrian`s Wall and then the Antonine Wall,
maybe build a `Sturgeon`s Wall`,
built with the money we will save from subsidising England .
To be honest …this was bound to happen sooner or later. They’ve spun that many half-truths, half-lies and full-out lies, that sooner or later they would trip themselves up over one of them.
The only problem is …that it isn’t a grenade that has gone off; it’s been a nuclear explosion! The Brexit result, unwittingly, has exposed just about every lie that the UK has spun over the last 50 years. Theresa May isn’t just tripping over the lies, she’s found herself in a minefield full of them where each step that she takes sets off another!
This is the end of the Union one way or another. Even if Theresa was to manage to survive her way through the minefield, what everyone will see at the end is the battered, bruised, punch-drunk, pulp of a corpse that is supposed to be the British Union. It will not be pretty.
There is no returning to the good old days of even 2012 when the UK had the Olympics. People are being exposed to the truth on a regular daily diet now. Each day now brings another revelation from the Brexit result. The problems cannot be squared no matter how hard Theresa tries. And more and more people in Scotland are now seriously looking to the alternative of independence.
For me …these are the last days of the Union. And as England looks to spend the next few years participating in the charade of reliving the glorious memory of Empire, the rest of the UK won’t, and therefore, it will be doing so alone.
O/T but I’m raging at the comments BTL on the Daily Mail online(England?). This comment from
Feagle, Littledean, United Kingdom, 2 hours ago
Can someone please direct the next gun toting maniac towards wee Jimmy!
‘Wee Jimmi’ is Nicola Sturgeon. Especially after Jo Cox how can people think this is acceptable? I have threatened to report him/her to Police Scotland. Mind you I’m not sure if it would be dealt with, but maybe the threat might make him/her think about his next post.
There are literally thousands ( over 4k comments) of really nasty comments about NS. Now I know this is fairly normal but it feels like it has been ramped up a lot. Worse, there are many ( supposed ) Scots being abusive too.
These are the folk that voted in a Unionist party and they are complaining that Scotland is a drain on their whole lives and needs to be removed from the UK. The no voters should be made to read them all, every one!
I am beginning to worry about staying in this country ie England, long term, although my choice is limited due to family commitments.
What about sea borders? How would these be policed or even defined?
I’m more in favour of a very deep and wide Scottish Channel between the Solway and the Tweed Estuary with only three crossing points. Populated with sharks.
Great public investment in civil engineering works then a nature site.
Plenty of employment opportunities.
We would probably get an EU grant for this.
@G4jeepers
Policing the borders should be nae problem for Westminster they have oodles of money! Think it’s their problem as all we need is a couple of Scots to WELCOME those who wish to cross to our side…can’t think why anyone would want to visit the other side…bit like the old Berlin wall…gosh there could be a run on ladders and hot soup for the defectors lmao…sorry my sense of humour seems to have taken a ne ne ne ne ne turn! What was that old phrase…”they don’t like it up em!” Seems apt right now!
@Meindevon
Yes, they have ramped up the racism, personal smears and misrepresentation. Its going to be unwholesome viewing for Scots in general, but those supportive of Scottish independence living in England are going to be in a bad place right now.
The readerships, viewers, and listeners of the msm are gradually having their daily intake of SNP badness increased and the subtle change of tone from dismissive and sarcastic to abusive and aggressive is having an effect. Brexit has empowered the very worst elements of these readerships and what has been let loose won’t be easily put down. A runaway narrative of scapegoating, hatred and fear.
These elements though, aren’t representative of the people of England, only of the ardent followers of a dog whistle narrative who have got their fifteen minutes. The only way to point them in the direction of the true authors of their problems is for Scotland to become independent and show a marked improvement of our lot free of Westminster politics.
In the current climate, nothing else will change their world view.
I already need my passport to check in for flights to England. No change there then. The land border might be more difficult and easy for “shortage of personnel” to cause delays, but it would hurt the English economy as much as the Scottish. The tories’ money masters would soon see to that.
There wouldn’t be much point in eastern europeans, or anyone else, for that matter, sneaking across the border. They would be unemployable in England by honest employers, so what would the point be?
On the other hand, Scotland would get a better ferry service (sorry, a ferry service) and perhaps even screw a subsidy out of our EU partners. If Mallorquins get help crossing to the Peninsula, there must be a case.
Better air services would be a likely result as rUK airlines move to Scotland to take advantage of the EU open skies agreements.
Who is going to be the loser in the foregoing scenario, unfortunately the English minority who voted remain. Probably enough of them to make things very uncomfortable for the tories.
Hi Cherry.
You typed,
“Think it’s their problem as all we need is a couple of Scots to WELCOME those who wish to cross to our side…”
Will they have been trained to utter, “Yilliv hud yir tea?”
Hi Macart.
You typed,
“The readerships, viewers, and listeners of the msm are gradually having their daily intake of SNP badness increased and the subtle change of tone from dismissive and sarcastic to abusive and aggressive is having an effect.”
As Gandhi said,
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.”
@g4jeepers
The maritime boundaries are determined by maritime law in distance from the land, so there is no issue, except on the boundary that was moved on Berwick side, but it’s not known if that is legal.
When you see the maritime boundaries on a map, it’s quite something.
We have no sea patrols now, so anything Scotgov puts in place is a bonus.
Brian
I hope not lol! More “whit’s yoors pal!” 😉
Too much? No me either 🙂
@BDTT
Pretty much what I was thinking. 😉
24 hour queues at Dover. The mad May woman. It would be laughable if it wasn’t tragic. Planes from Lossiemouth are still illegally bombing the Middle East. The totally incompetent Tory liars. May had queues and delays so long people had to allowed through unchecked.
Hours waits at Airports, especially congestion at Heathrow. The totally incompetent Tories.
There will be many people getting a ferry from Scotland to avoid the congestion around Dover. New trade routes. Transport improvements. More direct flights from Scotland. More jobs in Scotland. A Navy with Scottish built frigates to patrol the shores and no Trident. More direct flights to Europe.
The Daily Mail readers are few in number.
How many terrorist attacks have happened in Scotland. The only two came from England. All the terrorist attacks have been in England.
They must really hate us! We should have them just to keep Tories out. Are you listening bovver boot Ruthy.
It is clear that May and her Three Mexiteers Johnson Davis and Fox do not have a baldy notion what ‘Brexit’ actually means.
Long may it continue.
I dunno, you’re UK PM, you’re committed to exiting Europe and sewing together Trade Deals you cannot legally sign with countries who don’t really like you very much, do not require anything you produce, and who have already lost billions in stocks and shares which plummeted after Brexit. You are using cluster-clown Boris Johnston as Foreign Office negotiator with an international community who thought his appointment was a wind up. Your country has lurched dangerously to the right, deluded with emperialist nostalgia. Right wing extremism is brooding in the shadows, where poverty is also stalking the poor and vulnerable. Your economy is teetering on the brink, desperate for a better balance of trade but stymied by productivity left anaemic and off balance by decades of neoliberal asset stripping and underinvestment. Your human rights record is causing deep concerns at the UN, your flagship nuclear fleet is overpriced and obsolete before it leaves the drawing board, never mind entering the water, and your two nuclear fleet flagships are aircraft carriers which don’t have any aircraft. Your country is in no small part responsible for the chain of events which has spawned unprecedented levels of terrorism. Your National Debt tops £1.65 trillion, with a comparable sum in private debt, your property prices are grossly overpriced and long overdue for realignment, and your subordinate “partner” in a 300 year old union has had enough, and is voting with its feet towards the Europe you are leaving, and taking with it significant wealth, resources and growth potential, and in the midst of all of this, you are taking the time to be worried about Border guards at Gretna?
Seriously?
Aside from all the rhetoric, there must be one or two financial companies already based in Scotland who are quietly rubbing their hands at the prospect of Scotland becoming the English speaking base for European financial services. A quick squint at the Internet threw up the following 2014 data of the top 10 Scottish headquartered, registered and controlled companies
Bank of Scotland £m7654 revenue
Scottish Widows £m7225
Standard Life* £m1402
Baillie Gifford ^ £m555
Aberdeen Asset Management £m429.9
Scottish Friendly £m 129
Alliance Trust £m 116
Noble Grossart £m 33
Quayle Monroe £m 10.3
Dunedin £m 10.2
Total £m17,564
*Excludes investment returns
^Baillie Gifford estimate based on grossing up revenue from three registered companies in proportion to total assets under management.
My the “we’re not anti-English” mask is really slipping in the comments today isn’t it ?
If Westminster really does want a hard boarder, I suggest we all invest in shares in a viagra company.
@Graeme
Yes,bad isn’t it? You should have a word with your pals in the 77th and ask them to stop it.
hehe
It’s not the English we don’t like, it’s some of their customs.
Hence the glee about a border trumping the alleged inconvenience.
Will the electricity need a passport to cross the border? Or do we switch it off?
After independence is declared Trident will still be at Faslane including other nuclear boats. Are the crews, visiting officials and deliveries going to need passports?
Not to mention the frequent movement of warheads through Scotland to Coulport.
It’s total baloney and anyone who believes that a border will be built needs to see their GP immediately.
Graeme, what with the racism & xenophobia displayed by the Brexiteers plus the disgraceful behaviour of its football fans in France, loving the English is a big ask the noo!
Croft-land Security using settler-detectors and anti-colonial legislation, should protect future generations from the terror of having no democracy.
Breeks 8:13 pm
Well said that man.
Guid yin. Whaurs ma Scoattish passport?
Hi Foonurt.
A usually informed source, close to a Ronnie Anderson, suggests that there may be a limited supply of Scottish passports at the Wings presence in George Square on Saturday.
Just another reason why so maany people, 62% in fact, voted to REMAIN. We had heard all the scare stories and lies before and that includes ‘NO’ voters and when they were regurgitated we al just went, “blah, blah, blah”.
Always remember my parents telling me that sooner or later your lie/s will catch you out but in this case I just didn’t think it happen so soon.
Auld Rock
What if there is some kind of border post. Anyone who has ever driven around Australia will tell you that there are border posts at state borders to check for fruit in every vehicle. They’re scared of fruit fly infections. It’s no big deal.
More yoon doublethink:
http://moflomojo.blogspot.com/2016/07/yoon-doublethink.html
Brian Doonthetoon – guid tae ken. Afore um deid, ah want tae haud ah richt Scoattish passport, afore ma een. Um no tackin awaw fae thoan yins, thit wull bae oan yurr coonturr oan Setturrday. Bit whin ah kin haud ah richt yin afore ma een, wuv nae mair shite tae tak fae Union erses.
Luk oot fur yoan erses, wae thurr Deil’s waistkitts hingin, aroon Geordie Square oan Setturrday.