The bookies are never wrong
Posted on
June 28, 2016 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We’re currently trying to write an article summarising the state of UK politics, but our brains keep exploding two sentences in. So in the meantime we thought we’d share this just-released image from YouGov with you, for the benefit of anyone dim enough to ever put any stock by bookmakers’ odds as predictors of the future.
Although, obviously, hardly anyone’s that thick.
Whatever you say about twits like Kevrage, its got to include graphs:D
What people don’t think about is that the odds of bookmakers move according to what money has been staked. If all money being bet was on remain then the odds will shorten. If all the money was on Brexit then their odds would shorten.
Bookies odds are therefore no indicator of an outcome, but merely a reflection of the betting public.
If bookies were always right Kevin should give up his support of the union and accept Scottish Independence is going to happen.
But, but … K**** H****’s charts look so much more scientific and clever than Rory’s feeling.
The way the inmates of the Labour Party at Westminster are treating Jezza is sickening. Craig Murray writes, the reason Blairites want rid, is they are desperate not to have Corbyn at the dispatch box in a few weeks time when the Chilcott Whitewash is published.
Ian Murray says MP’s are heartbroken at having to demand his resignation, My heid’s Brocken listenning to Blairites Parliamentary Pish.
ha ha its good to see i am not alone i predicted a stay vote at five in the morning of the vote results and turned off when England scored last night anyone what Saturdays loto numbers ha ha i am doing as well as Mc torn-arse in the prediction game
I saw two interesting articles yesterday. Reuters described the polls as skewed because of a ~”hoax” poll, but didnt’t say which one.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-jpmorgan-idUSKCN0Z11CG
Zerohedge reported that once dodgy statistical methods were corrected, Leave was in front.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-17/jpmorgan-reports-3-5-lead-leave-brexit-referendum
My popcorn from the Scottish elections and the EU elections still in the cupboard. 🙁
But this cheered me up among the items on the STV news this evening.
Just missed the end of the last thread.
http://stv.tv/news/politics/1358976-no-big-obstacle-to-independent-scotland-joining-eu/
Bookies have (paid?) insider information. That is why they can pay out early. Pollsters are crooks. Who illegally manipulate the vote for money.
Angela Eagle Trident/illegal war criminal. Place your bets.
Preston lying through his teeth.
“hardly anyone’s that thick”…. that would include me I’m afraid.
re the last thread,
reposting this here
tx for your concern guys but i am not fooled by the jubilant manner that kay burley announced Tarks statement. i know they are spinning this as a knock back from someone she wasnt planning on meeting.
but he did say it was an “inappropriate time” Why?
dunno about you, but that doesnt fill me with confidence. if he was on our side he could have kept his gob shut.
all of the applause for alyn smith, and the kind words of ex- important people are irrelevant unless the powers that be are willing to speak to nicola.
Always be wary of rogues and charlatans trying to talk up the prospects of one outcome or another purely for personal gain as they manipulate both sides and ensure they have a tidy sum whoever wins.
An abundance of mug punters frequent various betting focused sites. They have sufficient volume to move the odds this way and that for those unscrupulous enough and in a position to take advantage of it.
Nothing wrong with a good tip from someone you trust.
Just be cautious and always ask yourself if the information proffered sounds legit or is substanceless hype.
Pollsters are charlatans. They produce polls that the payer likes to see and if they don’t like the result then they will probably never see the light of day. Pollsters can also be used by and collaborate with dodgy Govts to rig votes.
Bookies just adjust their odds according to how much money is placed on a horse etc. The favourite doesn’t always win.
OT
I wonder what the English will make of Alyn Smith getting a standing ovation. I can well imagine that a few in the so called Scottish Press and Media must be as sick as proverbials right now.
Events are so ludicrous and so far fetched at Westminster right now that listing them as concisely as possible with a well placed expletive or remark interspersing them is the only appropriate response.
and the Blue Tories abstained. So they won’t be taking part in any talks with the EU?
Scotland isn’t a country to Ruth, Kezia, or Willie.
Jackson Carlaw’s a bumptious fool, and Oliver Mundell is the political equivalent of Dolly the Sheep.
very interesting article on how brexit is a fall of the
Berlin wall moment in modern Geo-political realignment
as the city throws US/Europe under the bus to become
the western hub of the coming Yuan Financial Era
even willing to let go Scotland and its oil revenue seen as they get to price it…
well worth a read
http://www.voltairenet.org/article192607.html
A Welcome Home… remember that politics is a game. There are lots of jockying for positions going on just now. Our Scottish Government are looking good and well in this race. Dinnae fear. 😉
Jack Collatin… Abstaining is what the Holyrood official opposition obviously do, no matter whether they wear red or blue rosettes.
O/T , however having carefully watched the BBC London network news output
since Friday, it is now obvious that the ” coup against Corbyn” is being used as a ” smokescreen” to allow the Tory party to ” regroup” behind the scenes following the disastrous ” Brexit vote” and ” “civil war” within the Westminster government . This is giving the ” Eton based power structure” time to ” pass the historical ruling elite baton” on to another faction within this ruling club, with no doubt deals been done right at this moment as to the ” make up” of the new ” cabal” going forward is finalised over ” long dinners”( formerly in smoke-filled rooms).Make no mistake the London controlled media are fully compliant in the protection of the ” new ruling Tory cabal” going forward. Jointly the ” organised ” coup” by the ” red Tories” against Corbyn is a ” win win ” situation for the Westminster ruling establishment” to enable them to ” get in place ” a ” reserve government” , if it becomes necessary to ” engineer” a general election and possible change of ” establishment government ” perhaps to ” preserve the integrity” of the U.K.
It’s Punxitawny Kev with a prediction and a graph
And then over to John McTernan with another prediction
Back to Blair McDonut with a comment on the predictions
Finishing up with George Ffoukes for an in depth analysis
And it’s SNP Baad from Ian Murray and SNP Baad from Magrit Curran
Odds are based on how much money is bet on each option.
Not the odds of it happening except at the beginning.
O/T
Not really an a.m. person,but more hashed than normal this morning,radio shortbread around 06:45-06:55 a femail financial expert was on,explaining something ???
Next thing she’s given the bums rush,did anybody hear what she was on about? been bothering me all day,maybe nothing.
😉
This is a Scottish politics site where I myself gather a lot of valuable information.
It’s been the biggest shake up with not a minute from one scandal or revelation after another and in the last 2 days we’ve only had a couple of graphics and a YouTube clip of a song. I am expecting your next artical to be pretty mind blowing Rev.
We need more information.
On hols in Spain right now, having to rely on EBC news reports. Without sites like WOS, we’d be back in this position; if they’re all saying it, it must be true!
No National here, of course; bought a Times today, purely for the crossword. Wee report about some Jocks making a fuss about something, as usual.
Uk in turmoil, blue tories hate each other, red tories hate labour, everyone hates SNP. Who wants to stay in this “union”?
I feel for you Stu. Trying to tackle this ever increasing mess must be soul destroying, I’m drained just thinking about your predicament ?
On the plus side, we may get another wee book out of you ?
England were hot favourites last night to gub Iceland. Yeah well.
As far as Independence goes I think it would be sensible to totally ignore all predictions either from the polls or the bookies.
We are too valuable to the UK to lose and they will lie and manipulate as necessary. It is their fucking job to lie.
So good to hear a wee sharp intake of breath, disbelieve from Auntie shortbreads Glen… shurley shome mishtake!
https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/747849827749232641?lang=en-gb
Shocked at Davidson’s self serving attempts at undermining Scottish unity. A bad judgement call in my book that will please only those of a UKIP disposition. It is clear that she puts the Tory Party and her die hard Unionism first and second.
The purpose of today’s debate was about securing the best outcome for Scotland and Nicola could not have made it clearer that if that best can only be obtained by another Indy vote she would come back and ask for one and not use this backing as carte blanche. Ruth’s determination to make it about her and her Unionism was just sad.
I am glad all the other parties ignored her and she became Ruth the Irrelevant in this fight.
“We’re currently trying to write an article summarising the state of UK politics, but our brains keep exploding two sentences in.”
There is a psychological term for what is happening in the broken UK right now – disassociation. Like 50% of the human race, I have developed an amateur interest in what people are thinking – though I’m too lazy to study it to any greater degree – and it seems clear that there is a collective state of shock at a Brexit result that some campaigned for but didn’t expect to win. And so, our political class, like a bereaved wife, escaped the reality of their loss by clinging to a semblance of normality – making tea, washing dishes, playing cricket (BJ) or hide-and-seek (Osbourne). Then after the memorial service on Monday they decided it was too soon to pick up the pieces and what they really needed was a good holiday to think things over:let’s pretend it’s not really happening.
Making sense of it is only a problem if you attempt to tie the self immolation of Labour into the Brexit cock-up. There is no link, other than the labour party missing an opportunity and turning a crisis of Tory mismanagement into a 22-carat Blairite fustercluck. How can any party be so self-absorbed that they cannot see and exploit the weakness of this government.
It seems that south of the border the only mammals not in shock are the unthinking right-wing fuckwits who now believe it is open-season for hate, while the BBC et al eagerly report Farage’s attempts at inciting a violent response from his EPP colleagues in order to bring about and justify racist attacks on EU immigrants.
Femail oops Female
Apols.
Weekly football coupon offshore,20 matches,predict the result 1,2 or X,highest points winner takes all.
Average winning score….
14/20
Bookies hoovering up ever week,in betting there is no such thing as a sure thing,unless your ‘connected’….crooks every one of them.
Kevin FGS…*article*
Also, TBF the news is changing frequently and I bet has done so since I started this post! 🙂
Westminster a political asylum in the true sense.
LOL… by the time Stu has an article near finished, it is probably in political terms, 4 months out of date at the rate things are moving. 🙂
Jack Collatin says:
28 June, 2016 at 7:06 pm
Oliver Mundell is the political equivalent of Dolly the Sheep.
He certainly looks and sounds like a Mundell clone.
@carjamtic – that would have been Laura Lambie’s stockmarket report; yeah she was dismissed very abruptly, just as she was getting into gilt yields being a disaster etc
What’s to odds Westminster will not leave the eu
No section 50 notice
New general election
New brush
Different view
Leaving eu was old and bad idea
thinking in wm
jeremy hunt
“I’m arguing today is we do not invoke Article 50 in a hurry.”
(he mentioned this morning he could wait till 2020- 3.20min)
http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/news/jeremy-hunt-seriously-considering-tory-leadership
“before setting the clock ticking, we need to negotiate a deal and put it to the British people, either in a referendum or on Britain’s terms for leaving the European Union.”
This, he said, would include full access to the single market with a “sensible compromise on free movement rules”.
thinking in the eu
Emphatically no negotiation by eu with WM until article 50 invoked
this to be done ASAP to help calm the markets.Not that farage would care if euro markets crashed in the mean time, his sole aim is the destruction of the eu, not pulling the uk out of the eu
No access to the single market without free movement of people”
thinking in scotland
these negotiations with the EU by nicola are a complete red herring. Not even in a parrallel universe will scotland be able to retain its position in europe while it is still in the uk. it is nothing more than a delaying tactic (see ex belgian PMs comments today)
everyone, and i mean everyone, will be watching wos when stu publishes his poll. btw, i think we are about 55/45 yes/no at the moment, the reason why 60% is bandied about is to take into account margines of error and last minute swings. continued uncertainty, job losses etc will only move nos to yes. we are very close folks
the carrot which the eu will hang is if we vote yes before the “button is pressed” we will stay in rather than after the button when the eu may ask us to reapply.
Poor old Jeremy, it looks like the end of days for him now.
The excuse used by all the backstabbers that he isn’t a leader is hilarious knowing that every man Jack (and Jill) of those fuckwits thought that Miliband was.
How in the name of the wee man do these people actually get into power.
I have no expectation that we will get much, if any, support from Brussels. I would not even be surprised if we were cold shouldered. The various European governments have more in common with the UK government than with us. They are all part of the same power game and they really don’t want us complicating it.
However, from a longer term perspective I see it as important simply that Scotland is being mentioned; the world is at least hearing that we exist. That will be important in the future when we look to other countries to acknowledge and accept our decision to leave the UK.
I am satisfied that in a period of strife we continue to consolidate and build on what has been achieved since indyref. The Scottish government and its representatives are growing in stature as each day passes. That is not going to be lost on that part of the Scottish electorate who seriously considered supporting independence but lacked confidence in our ability to hack it in 2014.
Brexit may just be the catalyst for a successful indyref2 but I am not banking on it. Yes I want the Scottish Government to do everything it can to ensure Scotland is not taken out of the EU. But it must not be at the expense of losing focus on the continued improvement of Scotland here and now. That is what lies within our control and if Brexit fails to deliver that is what will be dependent upon to achieve our ultimate goal.
@Chic McGregor
Remember we spoke about the Wee Black Books and decided to hold them back?
Now might be a good time to get them out there.
Just caught this dude on C4 news explain very succinctly that there’s not a chance in hell of his scotland region keeping in the EU, if you think we could, you are a silly duh.
alexmassie Retweeted
euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 10m10 minutes ago
sometimes i think @NickCohen4 is our finest columnist, sometimes i think it’s @MarinaHyde. there must be a duel.
Just for once it be nice if UKOK meeja gimps would introduce their guests gimps as what they do for a living, like this one and his chums, far right tories piddling over their scotland region, for a good living too.
Clearing out the imposed Blairite might make an opposition which the Party members can support. Absolutely no sympathy. They made their bed they can lie on it.
No sympathy for Labour whatsoever, for how they deliberately destroyed the world economy. Killing and maining millions of innocent people. They are deplorable. Non of them stood up to despicable Blair except Corbyn and a handful of others. The migration to Europe that Blair caused gave a Brexit majority. It is so disturbing for many people.
The majority will probably overturn within two years. @ Craig Murray.
M15 will be on to Farague. Expect a few revelations. Or alcoholic poisoning.
How they can go on holiday for two months with this situation is unbelievable. It is making people ill with uncertainty.
Somewhere in the background there are supposed to be police investigations going on into possible Tory election fraud in 30 constituencies in 2015.
If only half of those investigations come up with proof that there was such fraud, then this shambolic “government” never had a mandate to call a referendum in the first place.
What then?
Looks like Westminster might have to call on Alan Titchpish.There really doesn’t seem to be anyone else capable of sorting things out.Cept Ant and Dec maybe?
I’m expecting Gary Lineker and his team of fitba pundits to provide commentary on the whole sorry fiasco.They have recent experience and aren’t desperately needed for anything else at the moment.
I liked the Los Angeles Times take re Brexit. See http://www.trbimg.com/img-57715b28/turbine/la-1467046904-snap-photo/1000/1000×563
@schrodingers cat
the carrot which the eu will hang is if we vote yes before the “button is pressed” we will stay in rather than after the button when the eu may ask us to reapply.
The EU have first to sort out a deal with Westminster, therefore We in Scotland are the carrot that will bend Westminsters will.
Think about it and it’s obvious, if the EU were to welcome Scotland right now because of the Brexit vote then they would have given up their biggest bargaining chip with England.
The UK has been badly wounded by Brexit, Scottish Independence would kill them off and they know it.
Scottish Independence is the one thing that will have UK negotiators cowering in the corner. We will get nothing from the EU until a deal is agreed with Westminster. They are all one and the same and don’t give a shit about you or I.
They ARE the elite and the establishment. Much to our shame.
Our only hope is that Nicola gets in there with the head down and stamps Scotlands authority on behalf of the Scottish people from the get go.
We might be wee and poor. Stupid?
Oh ye gods! Not one of ‘THOSE’ graphs? 😀
RE: The FMs visit to Brussels? It cannot be official in terms of negotiations. I reckon its a twofold exercise 1. Fact finding – that is genuinely exploring options face to face 2. I suspect some charting the depths (some meetings are better face to face)
Junckers was quite clear today on meeting ‘UK’ officials before the Article 50 clause is triggered. Its a definite no no. No official meetings or negotiations. Therefore officially, this visit is all about exploring the options and gathering advice to inform Scotland’s decision making process.
It will though, I would think, impress upon the EU just how serious Scotland should be taken with a visit from our First Minister. It will also impress upon the Scottish electorate just how serious the FM takes the crisis we are facing.
It’s been such a mad few days while I’ve been offline. Brexit fallout, Euro2016 footy (Áfar Ísland!!!), 13 people died during our midsummer celebrations.
I never imagined the UK political situation would be this interesting in my country. After Brexit vote, my dad and uncle started asking me questions about Scottish independence, my silly hobby, which is beginning to seem a real thing. I can explain why. Dad and uncle are unduly surprised about how I told them how the EUref would go… and would lead into more support for Scottish indepandence. Dad and uncle are baby boomer oldies and have no idea of the real political situation in Scotland. They’re decent people and think YES for Scottish independence seems like a good thing now.
Oh, and we all are cheering on Ísland, especially against England.
HUUH! CLAP. HUUH. CLAP! HUUH, CLAP, HUUH, CLAP, CLAP. The Icelandic chant/haka makes you realise why ye olde English were so afraid of the Vikings. HUUH!
Where’s the like on facebook button gone? I’ve not been able to like on facebook any Wings articles for a few days now. I’ts fairly annoying. Apologies if anyone has asked before.
@ Arthur Thomson
Pursuing EU at Scotland’s expenses??? How so?? Have you missed the UK economy tanking? Are you unaware of how much we really need the EU, or how we have financially benefited?
This is make or break. Shake off this dying corpse, with rich f**kwits destroying the fabric of society, with them draining our lifeblood, or a life.
Never in 50+ years have I considered moving out of this country. I’m too old to start afresh.
However, that seems as nothing compared to living here under Brexit. I won’t live in a right wing utopia.
If we don’t get out, I can’t contemplate it, it’s a nightmare.
Secondly, have you slept through the longest period of improvement this country has seen?
For those who think there will be no brexit you are wrong,after what has just happened across Europe with country after country having to bail out their banking sectors due to the collapse in Sterling they will not look kindly on the UK to suddenly say sorry we didnt mean it.
The UK is out the EU and will be lucky if the rest of Europe dont start demanding they pay off the 1.6 trillion they owe,it might even lead to the IMF being sent in.
What we are hearing is typical britnat bullshit as they try to pretend they will be the ones making all the calls and the EU will listen,no they will not the UK will listen or it will get a size 10 boot right up the arse.
In any discussion remember not to mention the War.
If you were wondering how the BBC would spin Alyn Smith’s EU speech, here it is:
“Standing ovation for SNP MEP Alyn Smith’s ‘I beg you’ speech.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36649450
I haven’t archived it because the video won’t work so it will probably be changed soon, just as the “Sturgeon to meet EU Parliament President” was changed. Masters of spin after all.
That would be funny mealer… Gary Linaker and the Fitba pundits (Spitting Images style)…
“…It’s David Cameron on the right wing… Holding the ball… BUT HE’S LOST It.. Boris Johnson clashes with his own player… Farage from the far right comrs piling into the Fray… Surely the Ref has to blow the whistle… Time seriously running out now… They just don’t have the answers for this! …IT’S ALL OVER… THEY ARE OUT. …You can hear the displeasure of the crowd.” 😀
So uncomfortable watching Hardtalk with ex Polish Foreign Minister, pointing out in a polite way how arrogant UK is.
Also points out how badly polish migrants have been exploited by UK employers. This situation was what UKIP liked to call cheap Labour, taking jobs and driving down wages.
Wages are somehow nothing to do with the employer.
He points out we have assisted big time with the continental right wing wave.
I actually feel physically sick, because the whole stinking sewer has erupted, and we have to await the tsunami.
Am I getting it right here or have I finally flipped my lid?
If Scotland gets to stay in the EU surely we would then be involved in discussions on the UK exit along with renegotiated agreement for Scotland.
That would of course have to be OK’d from the EU, Article 50 tabled and Indyref2 going our way.
With the way things are going that could be as early as Thursday morning!
It will though, I would think, impress upon the EU just how serious Scotland should be taken with a visit from our First Minister. It will also impress upon the Scottish electorate just how serious the FM takes the crisis we are facing.
The most important thing is that Sturgeon and the SNP, Holyrood, Westminster, EU Brussels are all getting stuck in to keep Scots EU citizenship.
All the while, yoon culture just looks absolutely awful, both sides of the border, no matter how hard tory BBC led media UKOK protects and monster’s JC.
Kudos to the Greens and leader Harvie. True colours blazing now, all of them.
Deputy Deadwood stages a revolt like her pal Ian Murray.
https://archive.is/m0cbv
Somebody on the last thread suggested Sturgeon could loan Jeremy our MPs till the end of the season.
Wiley coyote Macwhirter has a plan! 🙂
https://archive.is/b24Ni
No amount of negotiating with the EU can achieve any kind of reverse-Greenland type situation, and I think “anyone who’s anyone” knows this. This is in my view a partial explanation for why Westminster hasn’t tried to stop the Scottish Government and Nicola Sturgeon from trying, which they arguably could foreign relations is a reserved matter. (There’s a bit of wiggle room for EU related stuff which I think Nicola is pushing slightly further than it should really go!)
I think other reasons for Westminster’s not trying to stop them is (a) they’re a bit distracted right now and (b) they don’t want to have a fight over the subject.
However I also don’t think that trying to achieve any kind of reverse-Greenland type situation is the real reason for all of this. The real reasons IMHO are (a) to reassure as many of the soft-no’s as possible, by showing that an SNP-led government isn’t leaping straight to IndyRef2 and (b) establishing informal contacts with the EU.
The first part means that when IndyRef2 does appear no-one will be able to say “You should’ve tried something else!” because the answer will be “If you had any sensible suggestions at the time Ruth, why didn’t you tell anyone?” and the soft-no’s can see that there isn’t any other option if they want to stay in the EU.
The second part means that the SNP and the Scottish Government have some idea of the “lay of the land” wrt to the EU’s thinking (and vice-versa for that matter) so that when we move we know some of what’s going to be said from their side. As other’s have said above, Scotland is one of the things the EU can hang over the UK’s head to a certain extent so they might not want to publicly state their position right now but they can certainly informally indicate the general direction to the Scottish Government.
Der Spiegel have an article with info on todays decision in Holyrood.
Prime Minister Sturgeon
New plan for independence: Scotland start direct talks with Brussels
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/brexit-schottland-startet-gespraeche-mit-eu-in-bruessel-a-1100237.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=derspiegel#ref=rss
Last night England fielded a bunch of primadonnas.
Iceland fielded a team.
Result, Iceland won.
Westminster’s main political parties are a bunch of primadonnas.
Scotland has a team.
Result, ???
@average still doesn’t understand what “deficit” means, so it’s highly likely he doesn’t realise bookies are in the game to make money, and they make money whoever wins.
I’ve noticed a lot of comments suggesting that the establishment will be working behind the scenes, to undermine the Leave vote or any moves by the SNP to protect Scotland’s interests etc.
I agree that they would not hesitate to undermine the SNP, but when it comes to the ‘Leave’ voters, they have a far bigger dragon to slay.
A large percentage of the leave vote in England think that they have voted to stop immigration and have been gleefully telling anyone who they think of as foreign to ‘pack their bags’
If this was just one or two isolated incidents, then we could put it down to some random nutters, but it’s happening so frequently and in so many different places, that the only conclusion you could take from it is that a large section of the English electorate were somehow led to believe they were voting for the end to foreigners destroying England and taking all the jobs, houses, Destroying the NHS flooding the doctors surgeries etc etc.
This section of English society, believe they have entered a bright new era of English greatness where gardens will be green, people will be nice and polite (and white)
These are the types who will not hesitate to take to the streets and riot if they think they are being betrayed by the ‘Cockney Suits’ and they now feel that they have millions of patriotic Englishmen on their side.
This Genie that has been released will not ever be put back into its bottle and the internal polling that all parties do will show that any party that can tap into this sentiment and promise these people that they will fulfil this dream of England for the English, will hoover up a huge number of votes/seats.
Yes the establishment control the media etc, but they don’t control the low information bigots, who will riot at the drop of a hat.
With the Leave vote already causing mayhem for the markets, TV stations beaming pictures of burning buildings and riots in England will be the final straw for a lot of investors.
The elites power is the power to control the agenda and through this, control the population…they are not in control of this section of the population.
Which media course did Ruthie go on? Can she cut out the exaggerated hand gestures and the fake cadence. She makes me grue.
She is totally out of her depth.
I think other reasons for Westminster’s not trying to stop them is (a) they’re a bit distracted right now and (b) they don’t want to have a fight over the subject.
Eh, they’re not actually doing anything at all. If teamGB had an media that wasn’t a tory led BBC freak show, they’d be getting slaughtered on every channel, every news broadcast, eery newspaper. Its all an incredible display of breath taking incompetence, terrible Westminster decisions and a shockingly corrupt tory MSM.
That is all:D
Well Labour are doing something, they’re missing the opportunity of a generation to stand up and fight toryboy world. But instead they’re dying, minute by minute. Not a conspiracy theorist but fcuk knows what the red tories really think they are doing.
Capella says:
28 June, 2016 at 8:41 pm
If you were wondering how the BBC would spin Alyn Smith’s EU speech, here it is:
“Standing ovation for SNP MEP Alyn Smith’s ‘I beg you’ speech.”
Rather interesting the way they emphasise ‘I beg you’ rather than simply mention his speech; it distorts the entire emphasis of his contribution to anyone who does not read the entire article or did not see the video, seemingly indicating Alyn was holding out the begging bowl for a Scotland that’s too wee, too poor, etc., rather than making a heartfelt plea for justifiable consideration.
IMO it’s just another instance of the subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) bias in BBC reporting.
The EU have first to sort out a deal with Westminster,
but without the button being pressed, there is no negotiation
this is the first impass, a yes vote before the button is pressed means scotland stays in and doesnt need to re apply. pressing the button stops that and undermines the yes arguement
in truth, in the present situation, others vie for advantage over each other and scotland is only a pawn in this game. the best and only thing we can do is to help push yes support upto and over 60%
i think we are all a bit gobsmacked these last few days, we all need to take stock and plan what we are going to do
Sky news reporting terrible bomb attack at Instanbul Airport.
However their strapline on Nicola Sturgeon’s attempt to meet with EU leader omits vital words “at this time”.
Demonstration yesterday afternoon outside Ian Murray’s office by party members angry at his disloyalty to Jeremy Corbyn.
Patrick. Spot on.
Farage is all set to play the poor victim, if Westminster fail to act on Brexit and the electoral results could be devastating both both Labour and the Tory’s.
Sorry meant to post this on this thread
28 June, 2016 at 9:16 pm
I long ago predicted that indirectly Scotland’s steadfast search for freedom from the English colonial state masquerading as the ‘UK’ would cause vibrations in the’Empire’ that would shake it to its foundations.
The innate racism built into England’s ruling elite, its smug middle class, and its uneducated and brainwashed working class a palpable and visceral presence in its intensity towards ‘foreigners’. From the Notting Hill riots in the ’50s onwards through the ’80s and up to the present ‘barmy Army’ of thugs in Marseilles, it was inevitable that it would eventually focus on us..the uppity Jocks.
Branded by their scurvy press and the praetorian guard of the BBC as subsidy junkies, whingers, drunks and violent riff raff, our nation, one of the oldest in Europe ,the cradle of the Enlightenment,was traduced and diminished in stature by their filthy lying treatment and theft of our natural resources. Bullied into subjection, our youth scattered to the four corners of the planet.
But as all bullies are essentially cowards…England and its Caledonian lackeys and lickspittles encouraged us to be seen as ungrateful and grew angrier and enraged and scapegoated our presumption to dare to want self government. This sparked the ugly nationalism we are now witnessing…blood and soil. First they will turn it on ‘aliens’ amongst them, later against each other as they search for scapegoats to explain their impotence.
The evidence of a dissociated country in a trance, distracted by its own fictional ‘greatness’ is now evidenced by the spectacle of Westminster..the puppet palace unraveling..Bozo and Gove missing…Osborne the waiter…waiting on obscurity..Corbyn and the Scabrous Labpour party tearing at his ankles like rabid dogs..while the first of future mobs howl at Parliament’s gates.
The walls of the City are beginning to shake…who knows what will happen when they fall.
Its simple heed they are throwing themselves in front of the train to stop their blue tory pals from getting slaughtered.
After all the red tories are just another sub branch of the conservative party just like the lib dems and UKIP.
It will only be a matter of time before a lot of English,as some do have a brain,figure out that their muti party system is a big lie,just like we figured out with better together.
“Rough waters are truer tests of leadership. In calm water every ship has a good captain.”
Scandinavian Proverb
@Patrick Rodden,
Totally agree Patrick. Civil unrest is not far away should article 50 be delayed or worse still kicked into the long grass. They have no idea what they have unleashed or how to control it.
They have given ligitemacy to racism and hatred.It no longer needs to be veiled .
Never thought there would be a downside to WOS: only time I’m subjected to the drivel of the imbecilic Hague is when I check out news on Wings.
Nearly half of English voters voted to Remain. Especially the young ones. It is unfortunate EU citizens resident in Britain were, undemocratically, denied a vote.
I’ve come across a lot of suggestions online that if you don’t like leave then you should eff off to Europe. These are the same people who will not accept that Scotland has different aspirations to Wengerlund.
I am one of those that had to eff off to Europe in the nineties thanks to Westminster policies.
Now thanks to them I might have nowhere to eff off to unless Scotland stays in. My wife is Lithuanian. My children are half Lithuanian with Lithuanian passports. The xenophobia in England has saddened and frightened me. My children want to study in Scotland. My wife and I want to retire to an Indy Scotland.
I am watching the Holyrood debate as I write. Thank you Nicola, Thank you Kezia. Thank you Patrick.
Eff off Ruth.
So the way it works is that @average and me decide to have a wager, but do it through the bookies. He wants to bet £10, I want to bet £5 on the outcome. The bookies offer him 2/5, and offer me 9/5. We accept and the bookie smiles.
@average goes for heads, I go for tails, the bookie spins the coin.
Patrick Roden says:
“This section of English society, believe they have entered a bright new era of English greatness … who will not hesitate to take to the streets and riot if they think they are being betrayed by the ‘Cockney Suits’ ”
Yes. And they have just been thoroughly shafted by those ‘suits’.
People who believe there concerns and fears have been ignored by the elites …. have just believed what a bunch if elites have told them …. and are about to have their concerns and fears ignored by the same elites!
This could end really badly if someone in WM doesn’t get a grip of the situation.
Is it me or is everybody else thinking that England is getting uglier by the hour?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-28/scots-seek-support-to-avoid-brexit-as-sturgeon-heads-to-brussels
A few days ago one of the rating agencies said that they had factored the risk of Scottish independence into their advice which basically was ‘there be dragons’.
So the likelihood of independence is being taken seriously across the world. We have to get there this time.
heedtracker
The contrast of the FM led SNP’s response to this crisis and that of the clowns at Westminster has been very sharp.
It seems clear to me that they had planned for all outcomes and not back-of-fag-packet style.
The opposition in Holyrood have been stunned with the options being either get on-board with the vast majority of the people of Scotland or face being on the wrong side of a referendum where no this time means no-EU.
As for options there does not seem to be many.
How can Westminster delay article 50? The EU won’t put up with it and there will be consequences in terms of public order. The UK establishment may have to try some kind of dead cat tactic to distract.
SNP blocking or trying to delay and I fear Scots living in England will be hated. I don’t think it is tenable or anyone’s interests.
The option of trying to remain in the EU whilst remaining within the UK is surely impossible. Westminster would not allow it. Like the ‘home rule’ we were promised and calls for devo-max (which is stone cold dead now) any arrangement cobbled together relying on Westminster cooperation are pure lunacy.
And even if Westminster did want to uncharacteristically give us exactly what we wanted why would the EU buy in? And even if the EU agreed the SNP would have to want it AND deem it the best option?
Enough is enough. If you are married to someone who one day decides to start wearing a suicide vest do you A Move out the house B Sleep in a separate room or C Do nothing.
I know Shrodinger is being a wee bit cautious about the rapturous response to Alyn Smith today. I just see Scotland being warmly embraced into the EU as the ultimate revenge on Westminster. It is perfect and there is obviously a groundswell of goodwill towards us for giving such an endorsement to the project.
These bodies act from self interest. Is it in the EU’s self interest to have the oily, gassy, fishy, farmy, foody, drinky, EU friendly Scotland remain in the EU if it simultaneously fucks off England?
Ken500 says:
“Nearly half of English voters voted to Remain. Especially the young ones. It is unfortunate EU citizens resident in Britain were, undemocratically, denied a vote.”
If 16-17 could have voted, Remain might have won.
If EU citizens could have voted, Again remain might have won.
If it had been like IndyRef where both groups could vote, Remain would almost certainly have won.
@Grouse Beater
Yeah, but a good few unfortunate Unionists pay attention to him and his ilk. I genuinely feel sorry for them, and am quite merciful with them, no, really, I am.
I agree both with schrodingers cat and Thepnr the EU high heidyins are playing a cagey game, TBH i don’t trust any of them, Juncker and Tusk need a reality check they are given too much power and credibility FFS Tusk was the guy who was halfway up Erdogans jacksy (shades of gorgeous george galloway with saddam).
I believe in Nicola and her negotiating skills, also her ability to spot if and when she is being bullshitted, i abhorred the BBC caption of Alyn Smith’s statement, I wish he hadn’t said beg ,but he did and we will have to live with it, i do hope the EU elite are not just pissing up our kilts to get back at the yookay. I would much prefer if Nicola came back to report that the only way to CONTINUE our membership is as an independent sovereign country. JOB DONE
Valerie- Same. I was always embarrassed to be British, but now I am utterly ashamed. I am currently looking into getting an Eire passport until Scotland has its own. Apparently if my great Grandad registered my grandad as a foreign birth in Scotland then I qualify. Anything but that disgusting British passport. If Scotland doesn’t get out of this I will have a way out with my EU passport!
@cat
I gave a reply on that thread, don’t want to bore people again!
http://wingsoverscotland.com/song-for-today/comment-page-2/#comment-2159586
Seems BBC Scotland posted a clip of Alyn Smith’s plea to Meps in European parliament today on their website at 11.19am with the standing ovation at the end not included!! Then, presumably after complaints posted another clip at 1.12pm with the meps’ reaction included. Amazing!!!!! That they tried to suppress this speaks volumes.
Big Jock says:
” If Scotland doesn’t get out of this I will have a way out with my EU passport! ”
You have hit on the ‘acid test’ for success. In a few years time I want my passport to continue to show that I am an EU citizen, otherwise it’s failure.
I have Irish ancestry, but alas it’s early 19thC. Too far back to count.
There is all this talk of Scotland being some sort of ‘special EU zone’ insiide the UK. Nae chance, IMO. That idea will shortly die a death.
So that leaves one option, I reckon. A nice shiny new Scottish passport, with European Union emblazoned on it!
My No-voting daughter voted Remain and was really upset at the Leave result.
Today she said she would vote Yes in Indyref2 to stay in the EU. She was such a staunch NO voter that I could hardly believe what I was hearing.
Tam Jardine says:
28 June, 2016 at 9:48 pm
heedtracker
The contrast of the FM led SNP’s response to this crisis and that of the clowns at Westminster has been very sharp.
It seems clear to me that they had planned for all outcomes and not back-of-fag-packet style.
They thought they’d win and life would go as usual. I thought they would but their ProjectFear wasn’t anything like the terror dumped on Scots by the BBC alone 2014.
Alex Salmond said this is what happened on that BBC QT special. Because the press in particular are so right wing and so anti EU, they failed to deliver on any of the real Brexit Project Fear they are more than capable of. Or as Salmond said, the sewage normally delivered by the UK media sewer, just wasn’t there for Cammers this time.
So there’s that, and at least half of England and Wales really loath Westminster.
BBC cheerleading of the Labourcoup – for that is what it is – serves as a convenient diversion from the civil war in the Tory party. More chilling still, this reeks of an operation orchestrated by Blair, Mandelson and Campbell to provide cover for Honest Tony’s exposure when Chilcot (finally) reports next week.
This state is rotten to the core. We have to find a way out, and soon.
How apt lost in space:
From ‘The National’forgot all about it until I started to go over it again before bed time.
http://archive.is/qzYdZ
While the EU or elements in it may try to use us no doubt, once Scotland starts to believe, once the idea takes hold in the minds of the famed quiet majority, there will come a point where there is no going back in the box. None.
Was looking for info on the Euro because really fed up hearing on the media that Scotland will have to join the Euro. This is going to be one of the big scare stories used this time round and I’ve heard people repeating it already.
Found these
http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/index_en.htm
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/opting_out.html
http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/adoption/index_en.htm
So in practice you can negotiate an opt-out like Denmark or UK, or just spend forever not joining e.g. Sweden or Poland.
Anybody got any more information on this?
galamcennalath,
I’ve seen/heard a couple of comments that only something like 32/34% of 18-24 yr. olds bothered to turn out.
So if they’d got off their backsides…
I don’t know if there are any reliable figures but I guess if that is so, that will be a generation of a regular voters for the future!
Nicola is meeting with European Parliament President Martin Schulz in Brussels on Wednesday,
The EU has three Presidents,
President of the European Parliament Martin Schulz
President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker,
President of the European Council Donald Tusk,
The European Parliament is the one that is elected by the citizens of EU,
the council are heads of states like Cameron,
the commission tries to steer the parliament on the way the Heads of State are heading,a go between,
Donald Tusk was Prime Minister of Poland,
he gets the name Donald because his grandmother on visiting Scotland fell in love with a young highlander call Donald before returning to Poland to marry a Polish Prince.
Inverclyder 9.07pm
Der Speigel has a great picture on this story.
Boris und der stinkefinger.
Worth it just for the headline.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/boris-johnson-nach-brexit-altes-stinkefinger-bild-viral-a-1100033.html#ref=recom-plista
There was a demonstration outside Ian Murray’s constituency office yesterday afternoon by party members angry at his disloyalty which resulted in the office being closed.
Funny this did not get the same coverage as a few Yes stickers.
Peter Hitchens spells out the vast chasm between Labour and Tory parties and the voters. Schadenfreude on stilts! 7mins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnCvl2T_o5o#t=402.181
O/T
Another fantastic day in “Gods Country”.
Another year older, the wife gave me a wonderful present,
watching Iceland pumping Fc Arrogant, on the STV player.
A quick look at Reporting shortbread and it looks like Jakey Turd is turning into a goth.
HAPPY DAYS.
Oh aye, I met more Nay Sayers now voting YESSSSS.
Wooosaaaaa
@call me dave says: 28 June, 2016 at 7:31 pm:
“So good to hear a wee sharp intake of breath, disbelieve from Auntie shortbreads Glen… shurley shome mishtake!
https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/747849827749232641?lang=en-gb
“
Thing is that if the case is put to the EU properly, and cleverly, there will be no need for Scotland to join the EU. For the very good reason that Scots are already EU citizens and have voted to remain so.
The way to put the case is the one I’ve been preaching for years. The United Kingdom is exactly that a kingdom and it is united by a Treaty of Union that anyone can read.
That Treaty only has two signatory kingdoms as partners and they were equally sovereign at the time of the signing.
No proof needed as there are indeed only two signatory kingdoms.
Next proof is that The English Kingdom annexed, not made a treaty, just took over Wales in 1284 and the Statute of Rhuddlan is also there for anyone to read. Furthermore, the Crown of Ireland Act of 1542 proves that Ireland was also part of the Kingdom of England in 1706/7. Which is why they did not sign the Treaty of Union.
So there is no doubt that the UK is indeed a bi-partite Kingdom of only two equally sovereign kingdoms but from the outset it contained four countries.
So here’s the claim, as the UK’s only two equally sovereign kingdoms are now set to split company there cannot remain a United Kingdom when only one Kingdom remains. What is more they were equally sovereign, when they got married to each other and thus the legal settlement is a return to the Status Quo Ante. They thus return to being two independent and equally sovereign kingdoms and the United Kingdom is no more having just been divorced.
So here’s the picture from the POV of the EU. Do they treat the United Kingdom as a bipartite kingdom that has just divorced or as a union of four countries that has just split up. So where is there any evidence that the United Kingdom was ever anything else but a kingdom?
So here’s the deal The people of the Kingdom & country of Scotland are already EU citizens and they have voted not to leave the EU. There are no EU rules, laws or mechanisms to expel EU citizens against their will. The EU would have two choices and one of them could be challenged in the international courts.
Either they can treat the United Kingdom as a bi-partite Kingdom that has split up – the actual legal situation – or they can treat the UK as still extant even if there is now only one partner kingdom left and treat it as a union of four countries but if they treat it as four countries then how do they explain away the facts that it is named as a kingdom yet contains four countries yet there is no documentary proof of the four countries ever signing up to a union.
I can get an Irish passport having lived and worked here for the past 9 years. I can get a Lithuanian passport if I pass a language test. Nae bother. A British passport has never held any appeal but I have had to have one.
I won’t be applying for either citizenships until I am forced to. I am holding out for an EU one with a lion rampant or Unicorn on the front.
Germans to be good guys in the next ironic twist of history as Trump and the Boris usher in the Fourth Reich.
We have reached the limits of neoliberalism which is now having its moment of reckoning- a seismic rupture, political uncertainty and theoretical pluralism whilst a new regime of evaluation emerges with a new stable reality.
In other words Scotland can no longer do the business of Scotland in WM which has descended into a farce, democracy trashed by a babbling incoherent rabble. Yesterday’s PM question time- was it a rehearsal for ‘Mock The Week’? all jolly japes and guffaws as the economy crashes and communities outside of Chipping Norton are cast adrift.
Scotland taking to the world stage like a duck to water, WM now a lame duck. Should we even wait for Indyref2- bring all the SNP MPs back to Scotland- any constitutional issues can be ironed out via twitter, emails, carrier pigeon, smoke signals-that’s about all WM deserves.
Time for all the MSPs to decide which side of the fault line they’re standing on-the chasm that’s opening up will soon be impossible to negotiate.
My Slovene girlfriend posted this, probably just the beginning too. How did she get on this afternoon in Holyrood, where she intends to do bad things, part time.
http://archive.is/mzH83
She is really angry about it all.
Brexit is great news for the rest of the EU
28 Jun 2016 21:05
4 Recommend
INDEPENDENCE DAY!
The EU has finally been liberated from the arrogant selfish destructive Brits!
Long live our EU, and let us work together to make it even better.
cearc says:
“I’ve seen/heard a couple of comments that only something like 32/34% of 18-24 yr. olds bothered to turn out.”
Good point. I’ve only seen % each way, not turnout of each age group.
If it is as low as 32% that is pretty awful. Something else to add to the long list of problems which need sorting!
Worth a keek:
http://player.stv.tv/live/
For a wee bit of information, the Lisbon Treaty as well as Articles, has Protocols and Annexes, and Article 51 incorporates these into the Treaty itself: “Article 51
The Protocols and Annexes to the Treaties shall form an integral part thereof. ”
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/228848/7310.pdf
Protocols can relate to individual member states, where they aren’t treated the same way as in the main Articles. Can’t be bothered checking it out for anything really relevant, but here’s an example:
“PROTOCOL
ON THE POSITION OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND IRELAND IN RESPECT OF THE AREA OF FREEDOM, SECURITY AND JUSTICE
…
Article 9
With regard to Ireland, this Protocol shall not apply to Article 75 of the Treaty on the Functioning of theuropean Union.”
That’s some financial thing, but the idea shows how such as the common travel area, borders, Schengen, could be handled, if the EU and Scotland can agree. There would be Protocols specific to Scotland.
Glamaig at 1010pm,
Regarding the Euro. Joining the Euro is not automatic. Countires must demonstrate adherence to several economic criteria over a period of time, with membership of the ERM (exchange rate mechanism) for at least two years, before being ALLOWED to join.
This is why countires like Sweden do not use it, as they have yet to meet the criteria – and choose to jeep it that way.
Importantly, joining the ERM is entirely voluntary, so no country can actually be FORCED to join the Euro. Those who suggest otherwise, are either pig ignorant, or liars.
This was all elcoquently explained some time ago (prior to indy 1), in the following Wings article by Doug Daniel,
http://wingsoverscotland.com/joining-the-euro-for-idiots/#more-50032
Orwell had a prophecy of permanent war. Always somewhere else though and never where you are.
It was to be a TV event, something to see but not be a part of.
I can’t shrug the feeling I am living in 1984.
Scotland and the E.U are Better Together.
*lowblow*
@heedtracker
part time politician and full time lickspittle your Slovene girlfriend, Tomkins,
was his usual incoherent self,nobody in the chamber understood a word he was saying,
no wonder he never practised law,if this is his courtroom performance,
as one of forty odd law teachers at Glasgow Uni he is a nobody there as well as a nobody in our parliament.
@Glamaig
Sorry, it was your question that prompted me to post the last monolith. Seems to me the main Articles cover all member states, but Article 51 incorporates Protocols into the Treaty, and that’s what is used to implement exceptions or special conditions and expemptions for an individual memebr state. There are some for most if not all member states, e.g. Denmark. There would be some for Scotland I expect.
I suspect getting a Protocl accepted is easier than any amendment to the main Articles. Who knows, even perhaps by a qualified majority rather than unanimity. IANAL.
Phronesis
“Scotland taking to the world stage like a duck to water”
This appears to be driving some people wild.
The ‘snub’ pish is just the start. As this process continues we will see much, much more. How dare she… how dare we think we can… wee Scotland and it’s pretendy parliament…
It didn’t look pretendy today. As has been pointed out, Nicola in just DAYS has overwheming backing of Holyrood to negotiate with EU, has formed a council of experts to advise her and is off to Brussels to talk to EU parliament president and other officials.
The party is determined to keep us in and slab and lib dems are forced to choose between siding with the tories or getting on board with the SNP and the majority of Scots.
All this in 5 days. Wonder where we’ll be in a month?
One last thought. Can anyone ever remember or even imagine a Scottish MP getting such a warm reception in Westminster as Alyn did today?
@Thepnr
With any luck, by 2020 we’ll be living in 2020 rather than 1707.
Not Convinced,
“No amount of negotiating with the EU can achieve any kind of reverse-Greenland type situation, and I think “anyone who’s anyone” knows this.”
Totally agree.
There is absolutely no way that Scotland can remain part of the EU and the UK as if nothing had happened.
Despite Robert Peffers’ pish, as far as international bodies are concerned, politically Scotland is nothing more than a region of the UK state.
If Scotland wants to be taken seriously on the international stage, she must first become a sovereign nation again by breaking free from the UK.
Fortunately, Nicola is well advised and acting like a real leader, preparing the ground for Scotland to regain sovereignty in the best interests of the people of Scotland.
U.K run by Sturgeons interim Government with Corbyn as Foreign Secretary for maximum lols please.
Don’t fail me now reality. You have always worked for me as drug.
*huffs reality pipe*
Down in London for the WASPI demo at the House of Commons tomorrow. We are just back from a wee Italian meal where the waitress noticed my SNP badge.
I like your leader she said, she is honest and for her people.
Then a waiter came over and gave us complementary liquers which no other folk got. Lots of smiles and pats on the back. Nice
Unelected 2nd rate rejects are collecting two salaries at taxpayers expense and trying to destroy the Scottish economy.
Glasgow Uni is missing an Idiot.
Harold Wilson’s famous “week” quote in 1954 needs to be updated:
“Five minutes is a long time in politics”
Cal @ 22:00,
The bifurcation of Alyn Smith’s speech is by design, not merely accidental. If you look at the url’s, as I did when I posted them to my sis, the one without the standing ovation is on the main uk politics section, whereas the one with the standing ovation is on the scottish politics sub-section.
The standing ovation is obviously too heady and incendiary an event for sensitive English eyes.
I’m with @Rock.
#Rock @ 10:55
“Despite Robert Peffers’ pish, as far as international bodies are concerned, politically Scotland is nothing more than a region of the UK state.”
It isn’t
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36353498
“The UK government’s Scottish Secretary David Mundell said the Scottish Parliament was now “one of the most powerful devolved administrations in the world””.
@Rock
“Despite Robert Peffers’ pish”
You do yourself no favours, in fact your a disgrace to those that support Independence and put their heart and soul into gaining it.
SNP Shadow Leader Of The House Pete Wishart just now;
“There’s obligations to be met to be the official opposition in the HofC. Lab now can’t meet then. Tomorrow the SNP will seek to replace them”
https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/747898026157608965
Right now, I want to throttle the bloody PLP…
Does anyone get the feeling that a General Election will be called for and lead to another EU referendum or the UK / EU negotiations will end up with the UK in the single market and accepting the free movement of people? The status blooming quo.
…………………………….
Anna (crazy) Soubrey, Tory, on the news talking about herself again ….. me, me, me and me … started crying as she mentioned her mother was crying at the Brexit news last week and her 2 daughters were very upset. You couldn’t make it up.
…………………………………….
Osborne saying he’ll not stand as PM as he was ‘too prominent’ pre-Brexit … second only to Cameron. What a big headed git. Seems too that all of those who were ‘prominent’ pre-Brexit, lying and scaremongering, are doing a runner now because they don’t want to deal with the fallout.
……………………………………….
Can anyone remember what John Curtice had to say about Brexit? Did he reckon Remain would win? The man who used his position to encourage everyone not to give the SNP the second vote in the Scottish election.
………………………………………..
@ Lumilumi at 8:29pm …….. Icelandic Huh, Huh (clap, clap).
Seemingly (seriously) originated in Motherwell, lol.
………………………………………….
Jeremy Corbyn should break away and form his own party (maybe with the backing of the Unions). Let the back-stabbing Red Tories get on with it.
…………………………………………………….
Gordon Brown is ‘re-emerging’ again to give a speech in Edinburgh about ‘Britain in Europe’ or more than likely how to stop Scotland from becoming Independent. Anyone know a vet?
…………………………………………..
Professor Kemp on STV stating basically that Nicola Sturgeon is doing a great job on behalf of Scotland re. the EU and that its doubtful that Scotland would have any problem at all remaining in the EU if it was Independent, however she mentioned that there was a way (extremely complex) that Scotland / N Ireland could remain in the UK and be in the EU …………… Nawwwwaaaaaaaa!
Scot Finlayson says:
28 June, 2016 at 10:48 pm
@heedtracker
part time politician and full time lickspittle your Slovene girlfriend, Tomkins,
That’s my girlfriend so watch it. Also, she clearly hasn’t the faintest idea what’s going to happen, except that his scotland region will not run its own affairs.
FT says
“Britain is now less creditworthy than Belgium, a country that has government debt of more than 100 per cent of national income and which has repeatedly struggled to boost its competitiveness.
That was this week’s verdict from Standard & Poor’s Global Ratings, which cut its classification for the UK and said the “lack of clarity” from policymakers and the looming constitutional crisis in Scotland after the Brexit vote could lead to further downgrades.”
Also, STV says Gordon Brown’s giving a speech tomorrow so its The Vow 2, EU will promise UK devo-max, federal Europe, they must do, its for their own good.
I know it’s not just me who still can’t quite believe how openly biased the likes of SKY and the BBC are right now towards Corbyn.
True, they were hardly that much less subtle about it before but, my god! do they seriously have no idea just how much irrevocable damage they are doing to any claims of impartiality?!
We can all guess why they are in such a desperate panic to do it right now of course. 😉
So be it.
They are going to lose any possible hope of persuading even moderate left of centre voters of very much after this.
I mean short of putting up an unflattering picture of Corbyn and screaming “BAD MAN!!” at it, it’s hard to see how much farther down this road the News Broadcasters can actually go.
BTW the state of UK politics is “flux”.
The message from Dave seems to be that we will not be leaving Europe anytime soon, if ever. We only want better immigration laws.
The message from Europe is that freedom of movement is sacrosanct and you must activate Article 50 before we negotiate.
I don’t know about Europe but I find the monumental arrogance of the Bullingdon boys nauseating.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29219391
They’ll let us know what’s going on sometime, when they get round to it. Meantime, they have their summer holidays booked, then there’s the grouse season, the party leader election, then …good heavens, is that the time?
Donald Tusk is not so important. Not in a permanent position. He is in the revolving role which changes and rotates, so each member State gets the Council role. (yearly?) Not in a negotiating position. Another member State Is due to take over. The change over is happening soon.
My summary. Its not its FT’s but it’ll do.
“A weaker economic outlook is not the agencies’ sole concern. They are also worried about the lack of clear post-Brexit plans from the UK government and the crisis within the opposition Labour party.
“The outcome of the referendum has precipitated political upheaval?.?.?.?contributing to heightened uncertainty over government economic policies and diminished scope for policy implementation,” said Fitch.
The UK has for a long time had a high current account deficit and relatively high levels of government debt. These are factors that tend to raise concerns among investors. S&P had been positive about the ability of British institutions to handle these pressures but said on Monday it no longer believed the UK government and its policymaking bodies were strong. The only exception is the Bank of England.
“There is no plan,” said Ravi Bhatia, director of sovereign ratings at S&P.
Outwith China,
the leaders of the two biggest states the world has ever known,
could be called Donald, both from Scottish connections,
Donald Trump leader of US of A
Donald Tusk leader of Europe.
Haw Heedy,
Is that girlfriend o’ yours aff on a bender tae Brussels wi’ Nicola? She could dae wi’ the experience!
@ Tam Jardine
“Nicola in just DAYS has overwheming backing of Holyrood to negotiate with EU, has formed a council of experts to advise her and is off to Brussels to talk to EU parliament president and other officials.”
Come now. There’s a war council in Westminster too you know. Headed by Oliver Letwin no less. Trump that (if you’ll forgive the pun).
https://archive.is/7uYls
What’s on the cards for the UK now is an economic recession. Possibly even a bailout from the IMF. Worse still it could be a depression if they are not careful. The full evidence of the UKs trillions of debt are about to be exposed. Hidden by civil servants at the behest of Osborne for years.
No protection from Europe. Why would they?
Scotland needs a way out before we are trading our phones and gadgets for petrol.
@carjamtic says: 28 June, 2016 at 7:35 pm:
” … Bookies hoovering up ever week,in betting there is no such thing as a sure thing,unless your ‘connected’….crooks every one of them.”
Way back, around 1954, I was working afloat on a ship and the area we worked had different trades all beavering away.
Most of the guys would put bets on just about every day. In those days betting was generally illegal. Except for the Football pools and on course betting.
There were thus illegal bookies’ runners. One of the workers in that area of the ship was a Bookie’s Runner and I was supposed to be working closely with the guy. He was hardly ever there but he taught be his job and, “paid”, me to do his work, (it was a different trade and he was a welder).
(I turned out a fairly good welder as well as an Electrical Fitter after my apprenticeship). Now how this guy paid me was he gave me a tip, “From the Horse’s Mouth”, every day and I only missed winnings a couple of times in the six months we, “Worked”, together. Horses do fall unexpectedly you know!
It taught me a great lesson – for if the bookies had enough inside information that he could give tips as consistently as that it was obviously a fiddle.
However I have never bet on anything like horses, dugs of other sports ever since. An occasional bet on something between friends was about the only thing and I’ve never bought a state lottery ticket in my life.
The Tories parachuted constitutional expert and list MSP,
Professor Adam Tomkins looks to the future..
http://www.scottishparliament.tv/Archive/Index/1312c077-2c7a-4e89-a243-594a0073eadd?parentCategoryClicked=False&pageNumber=1&orderByField=ScheduledStart&queryOrder=DESC&in=00%3A41%3A18&out=00%3A46%3A54
He said Scotland had many options and that are perfectly possible under its CURRENT legislative competence..
I wonder if the Tories delayed, until after the EU referendum, UK Bill of Rights will seek to take back some of Scotland’s legislative competence or give it more powers?
” yesindyref2 says:
28 June, 2016 at 10:54 pm
@Thepnr
With any luck, by 2020 we’ll be living in 2020 rather than 1707.”
You will be lucky, here in Ayrshire we will still be living in 1690.
If Pete Wishart is correct and the SNP are going for official opposition in the HoC then all hell is going to break loose in Westminster and the HoL.
I get the feeling they’re trying to trigger a General Election.
Dennis Skinner will have a stroke or spontaneously combust!
Buckle up folks it’s going to be a bumpy ride!
Tam Jardine
“These bodies act from self interest. Is it in the EU’s self interest to have the oily, gassy, fishy, farmy, foody, drinky, EU friendly Scotland remain in the EU if it simultaneously fucks off England?”
Lovely analysis and summary Tam.
All I can add, is that all the players in the game know this too.
Some are playing it better than others 🙂
Alun performed brilliantly, a nice way of shifting the onus onto our continental friends to make reciprocal welcoming noises.
O/T ish, but I wonder if more than a few European leaders are eagerly waiting on Chilcot too. World too really, one or two excepted.
Large quantities of ordure headed in the direction of air circulation devices. Can’t wait to see how Auntie spins this one.
The penny has just dropped as to whom Boris reminds of. Chris out of family guy. Same intelligence.
Meant to post this earlieer. I nticed with today’s Holyrood vote, not only have the Blue Tories taaken over the Red Tories’ seats in th chamber – they have taken over their role as the serial abstainers.
Very proud of Nicola and the reception Alyn got at EU parliament.
A commentator on WGD asked if the SP voted 92-0 to allow Nicola to negotiate with Europe means Foreign Policy is now ours. Therefore we are, in effect, Independent from Westminster.
Thoughts.
Ma heid is all over the place – one minute think all is lost and then think we have done it. Maybe that vote did it.
@heedtracker says: 28 June, 2016 at 9:18 pm:
i>” … Well Labour are doing something, they’re missing the opportunity of a generation to stand up and fight toryboy world.”.
I would say it is very obvious what the Red Tories are doing, Heedtracker.
The parliamentarians voted into office are now set on voting out the leader that was elected by the ordinary card carrying members of the Labour Party.
In other words there is now an irreparable chasm opened up between the remaining Labour Party Grass Roots Membership and its Elected to office members, (MPs, MSPs and Councillors).
And you know what happens when the grass roots are cut from the grass shoots – The lawn first of all gets overgrown by weeds and then the grass shoots die.
The Parliamentary Labour Party are now the walking dead.
Labour are now the Zombie Party.
pish rock
it would be possible to produce some kind of arangement between scotland and the eu while we are still in the uk. it wont happen because
1. such an arrangement would be very complicated and take ages to construct and negotiate
2. no arrangement can ever offer scotland the same access to eu that we have at the moment, maybe close, but not the same. lesser. In this sense, nicola is doomed to fail
3. the main reason such an arrangement wont happen is the snp dont want it anyway. these negotiations are a stalling tactic until support for yes reaches 60%, at which point nicola can dismiss any such discussions as unfeasable and undesirable.
and then launch indyref2
BBC running regular statements that Nicola refused a meeting in Brussels. RT reporting Nicola travelling to Brussels for a meeting.
@Petra
Just caught that Soubry Muppet, getting down with the youngsters, and getting all emosh. I was gagging watching it.
I know some think what’s happening with the PLP is none of our business on here, but I disagree. I have stopped posting and referring on FB, too much grief from English friends who are scratching for hope.
It’s significant, imo, because it’s very similar to Slabs fate, and we need that to play in garnering support from soft No support. Labour are finished, unless they split, rebrand, or there is a Left wing Podemo type emergence. A change from right wing has to be decades away.
Tories have rallied to show they have no intention of running a GE, or relinquishing power, and they know they are on a roll with Labour’s demise, ahead of Chilcot.
Two other points.
Did you know Gordon Brown didn’t even attend the signing of the Lisbon Treaty? We have 40 years of slights inflicted by this country on the EU. It’s also very clear, they read our media, which has rubbished and lied about the EU.
The Parliament is also heading into the summer recess!!!
Finally, how about this for timing, and of course, it won’t be reported.
http://www.centreforwelfarereform.org/news/uk-in-breachhuman-rights/00287.html#.V3Kw3ES0f3g.twitter
These are the opening credits of a Mad Max, Road of Fury film.
@ Ken500
That’s what I thought – except that I knew that each country gets a 6-month stint, not a year – but I decided to check, and it has changed:
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Council)
Now that I read that, I remember von Rompuy and the arguments about his appointment.
The six-monthly office is held by the member state, not any one individual (though of course individuals perform any necessary duties). Slovakia takes over next week, from the Netherlands.
The propaganda is getting relentless,repetative and sounding like cordinated drumbeats. How many times did you read the following today?
1. The referendum was UK wide and Scotland must accept!
2. Scotland would be in a financial black hole without Barnett subsidising you.
3. The FM does not speak for me,
4. The Scottish EU referendum result given showing those who did not vote and/or are dead added to the other side.
5. Sneaky attacks on Ms Sturgeon and her constituency exemplified by the letter to the Metro blaming her for a mattress lying uncollected in a street in Govanhill! ( btw who is responsible for that refuse collection? SNP must centralise LA duties?)
It goes on and on but the wording is strangely samey as if from a briefing sheet. surely not a coordinated attack on the SNP.
Petra @ 23:10,
I was at a talk by Curtice tonight, and among various interesting points he made, he showed that most polls were too close to call, as he had indeed stated himself in the run-up to the vote. The biggest outlier that gave Remain the win was actually a private poll done for David Cameron, so he was misled by his own pollster!
Apparently it was the pollsters own “tweaks” that put them more towards “Remain” than was actually the case.
Incidentally, he also believed the poll evidence did not show that Corbyn had failed to perform. ~37% of Labour voters chose “Leave”, but they were substantially (esp. in the north of England) in the socio-economic categories most likely to support Brexit. Instead he declared Cameron the real failure: 68% (or 58%, I forget now) of Tory voters chose “Leave” in complete defiance of their leader’s advocacy for the other side.
Another interesting stat was that people who describe themselves as “English only” were by far the biggest in favour of “Leave”. In effect the referendum was won by the English Nationalists!
Someone should inform the Scot-Buts just whose side they think they are on. (And psst: also the ~36% woefully deluded ScotNats who voted the exact same way as the EngNats.)
The leavers biggest issues were sovereignity, followed in fairly short order by immigration. Another point for the Scot-Buts to note: the leavers expected at least some economic loss, but didn’t care too much!
I went into a pub today and ordered a pint – it was full of burly men but I was on a mission. I pulled out a copy of the Wee Black Book and opened it about 2/3 of the way through.
Surprisingly a gentleman approached me and asked what I was reading, I explained:
“I was a No voter but a Yes voting friend of mine gave this to me to read – I am now so angry”
“show me” he requested – result.
From the Herald: “Sturgeon in setback ahead of EU charm offensive as member states refuse to offer public backing”
Ooh, that’s bad, isn’t it?
“Zoltán Kovács, a spokesman for the Hungarian Government, echoed other EU nations when he dismissed questions over Scotland’s EU status as “theoretical” and “premature” for the time being. ““We strongly believe in and stand for the right of all Europeans for national self-determination – but as far as there’s no legally binding decision about the independence of Scotland on behalf of the Scottish people… questions remain theoretical and premature.” ”
“Sturgeon in setback ..”
Oh, really?
He said Scotland had many options and that are perfectly possible under its CURRENT legislative competence..
He doesn’t say anything. All he says is UKOK toryboy world wants to stay in the EU single market but they don’t want or want to control migration into their UK. But that’s not an option, its never been an option. They just left the EU for their independence day n shit.
It may be that the EU do give Tonkinski’s toryboy’s Norway style membership but Norway accepts far more immigrants per capita than the UK, much more. Its the same with their much vaunted Switzerland.
So it looks like that my Slovene girlfriend needs to go back to the teamGB drawing board and its also highly unlikely that anyone in Scots.gov will have the twerp sniffing around any negotiations.
So now we’re the European Unionists about to start fighting a referendum against the vile nationalist separatist movement down south.
Christ. Time to go and lie down.
Surreal.
Sky showing Mrs Windsor at the new Bushmills visitor centre in N Ireland. Built with £6m EU money.
Then her and chookie went for a wee run in a lovely restored steam train. Restored with EU money.
When Mr McGuiness shook her hand, and asked if she was well, her response – well, I’m still alive.
It must be on her mind, as it was so readily blurted out. Thank fck I won’t be here to see the sacking of Buck house.
–
Having been glued to both my Fire tablet and tv I’ve just finished reading all posts on both threads. I may have it wrong, however, I think Nicola is meeting with Martin Schultz tomorrow and was never lined up to meet with Tusk. Here’s a paragraph from today’s update on SNP members site.
[The SNP are determined to protect Scotland’s relationship with the European Union.
Nicola Sturgeon has made it clear that she will make sure that Scotland’s voice is heard as widely as possible – in London, in Brussels and by EU member states.
Members of the Scottish Government have already had discussions with representatives from the Republic of Ireland, London, Gibraltar, Slovakia, Germany and France.
Tomorrow, Nicola Sturgeon will make an initial visit to Brussels to set out Scotland’s position to representatives of the major groups in the European Parliament, and to the President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz.]
http://www.snp.org/nicola_sturgeon_s_statement_to_parliament_on_eu_referendum
Just my tuppence worth 😉 I think Nicola and her team are playing an absolute blinder… they are cool calm and very professional. Wee Eck must be so proud of his protege…I know I am, every time I think about all this I just want to punch the air and dance around.
Watching the “fall of Westminster” has been a joy to behold, there really are no words. They are in total meltdown, I even think we could leave and they wouldn’t notice lol. I have total trust in Nicola and truly believe they know exactly how to play this chess game, this is after all what they have been working toward, maybe not this scenario but they must have strategies by the boat load and will have all their men in all the right places.
Can’t wait to see what tomorrow brings…you never know Jeremy might call and ask if I could be Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland…but I’d have to tell him no, coz I see no future in it for me 😉
Anna Soubry was faking it, if you have the Vid Clip watch the eyes not the quivering mouth, turn the sound down
I’ve just been offered shadow sec of state for Scotland If I get to the Commons for around 10am and pay my pound
Pete Wishart’s up for finance minister and the rest of the SNP are just going to swap seats a lot to make the place look busy
Michelle Thomson’s offered to do housing along with deputy Amanda Lamb
mr thms says:
28 June, 2016 at 11:07 pm
#Rock @ 10:55
“Despite Robert Peffers’ pish, as far as international bodies are concerned, politically Scotland is nothing more than a region of the UK state.”
It isn’t
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36353498
“The UK government’s Scottish Secretary David Mundell said the Scottish Parliament was now “one of the most powerful devolved administrations in the world””.
Robert Peffers and David Mundell will be eternally “British”.
Oor Nicola’s no hinging aboot …. like some folks I know!
How’s that for quick work? Meet the team folks. Take note that Tomkins is not on it. Tomkins who kept offering his ‘services’ yesterday. Must be beeliebags, lol.
………………………………………….
Members invited to take part in the Standing Council include:
Chair: Professor Anton Muscatelli, Principal and Vice Chancellor, University of Glasgow
Vasco Cal, former economic adviser at the European Commission
Sir David Edward, European Court Judge
David Frost, whisky, trade expert, former diplomat
Dame Anne Glover, former chief scientific adviser to President Barosso
Charles Grant, Centre for European Reform, London
John Kay, financial markets
Lord Kerr, diplomat, deputy chair ScottishPower, Carnegie Trust
Dame Mariot Leslie, diplomat
David Martin, MEP
Amanda McMillan, CEO Glasgow Airport
Professor Alan Miller, former chair of the Scottish Human Rights Commission
Anne Richards, M&G Investments & Edinburgh University Court
Frances P. Ruane, Irish academic economist & former director of ESRI
Alyn Smith, MEP
Grahame Smith, STUC, Scotland Europa
Professor Andrew Scott, University of Edinburgh
Fabian Zuleeg, European Policy Centre, Brussels
………………………………………
Membership of the Standing Council will be flexible to ensure Ministers have access to appropriate advice as required.
…………………………………………….
Anton Muscatelli is Principal and Vice Chancellor of the University of Glasgow.
Vasco Cal is an economist and worked as an Economic Adviser in the Bureau of European Policy Advisers of the European Commission.
Professor Sir David Edward is Professor Emeritus at the School of Law, University of Edinburgh and was Judge of the Court of Justice of the European Communities, 1992-2004.
David Frost is chief executive of the Scotch Whisky Association and previously worked as Director for Europe, Trade, and International Affairs at the Department for Business, Innovation, and Skills.
Dame Anne Glover was the first Chief Scientific Adviser to the President of the European Commission between 2012 and 2015.
Charles Grant helped to found the Centre for European Reform in 1996, was a director and trustee of the British Council and is a member of the international advisory boards of the Moscow School of Civic Education, the Turkish think-tank EDAM and the French think-tank Terra Nova.
John Kay is one of Britain’s leading economists. His career has spanned academic work and think tanks, business schools, company directorships, consultancies and investment companies.
Lord Kerr was Foreign Office Permanent-Under-Secretary from 1997 to 2002. In 2004 he became an (independent) member of the House of Lords, where he serves on the EU Economic Affairs Select Committee.
Dame Mariot Leslie joined the British Diplomatic Service in 1977 with a range of overseas postings as well as senior posts in the UK. Mariot was the UK’s Permanent Representative to the North Atlantic Council between 2010 and 2014.
David Martin has been a Member of the European Parliament since 1984 and represents Scotland.
Amanda McMillan was appointed Chief Executive Officer of Aberdeen, Glasgow and Southampton (AGS) Airports Limited in December 2014 and is a qualified Chartered Accountant
Professor Alan Miller was elected by the Scottish Parliament to become the first Chair of the Scottish Human Rights Commission in 2007 and served until March 2016.
Anne Richards is Chief Executive at M&G and was previously Head of Europe, Middle East and Africa (EMEA) and Global Chief Investment Officer at Aberdeen Asset Management.
Frances Ruane has been an Associate Professor in the Department of Economics of Trinity College since 1991. She has also worked at the Industrial Development Authority, the Central Bank of Ireland and Queen’s University, Kingston , Ontario and as Director of the Economic and Social Research Institute.
Professor Andrew Scott is an economist and has for many years researched and taught European economic integration. He is Professor of European Union Studies: Dean International (Europe) at University of Edinburgh and is Co-Director of the Europa Institute
Grahame Smith is General Secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC)
Alyn Smith was elected to the European Parliament for the first time in 2004.
Fabian Zuleeg is Chief Executive of the European Policy Centre and has worked as an economic analyst in academia, the public and the private sector.
http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Standing-Council-on-Europe-25c6.aspx
The FMs getting no knockbacks there’s just some protocol stuff going on
In point of fact she’s chokka tomorrow with folk wanting to meet with her
It’s all going rather swimmingly don’t you know,.. Ooooh!
The Herald will do what the Herald will do, but they’re pissin and the wind’s blowing the wrong way
Song coming on: Jealouseee! dum dum dum dum Jelouseee!
schrodingers cat,
“pish rock
it would be possible to produce some kind of arangement between scotland and the eu while we are still in the uk.”
Tell me what kind of arrangement could possibly be produced between scotland and the eu while we are still in the uk.
@Tam Jardine
But but … we’re Better Together!
among, pigeons, cat
i sense the hand of a certain mr salmond here
hahahahahaha
pete wishart on twitter
There is also more support for the SNP front bench than there is for the Labour front bench in the House.
There’s obligations to be met to be the official opposition in the HofC. Lab now can’t meet then. Tomorrow the SNP will seek to replace them
For those asking how this is possible it’s in Erskine May. The official opposition must be ‘prepared to assume office’. Labour can’t anymore
?@MichaelLCrick
SNP Parliamentary leader Angus Robertson may claim at PMQs tmrw he should be deemed Leader of Opposition as has 56 MPs behind him; Corbyn 40
Thepnr,
“You do yourself no favours, in fact your a disgrace to those that support Independence and put their heart and soul into gaining it.”
You put your heart and soul into embracing Tories to our cause.
That went well did it?
Tories led by the most dishonest and disgraceful politician in Scotland are now the official opposition in the Scottish parliament.
If you really want to put your heart and soul into it, you will need to become less gullible first.
I’m wondering if the introduction of English Votes for English Laws by the previous government, in turning Westminster into a de-facto parliament for England, on the same day as the announcement of the result of the Scottish referendum, was for constitutional reasons and is connected to the EU referendum?
Especially since both countries chose different options..
Oh well, not sure if you will be able to access that BBC Hardtalk interview with the ex Polish Foreign Minister to the EU.
It must have been deemed incendiary.
The repeat seems to be with Gywneth Paltrow, talking about her website, Goop. Much more soothing.
Tell me what kind of arrangement could possibly be produced between scotland and the eu while we are still in the uk.
anything that is less than the arrangement we have now, down to and including the exchange of deep fried mars bars.
if you read my post, i pointed out, anything less than we have now, wont be acceptable so any negotiations are a red herring. they are a smoke screen for nicola’s charm offensive until support rises to 60%
then they will be ignored and indyref2 called
wake up at the back there
Jurek Kuczkiewicz ?@jujikucz 2h2 hours ago
So finally @JunckerEU will receive @NicolaSturgeon this Wednesday #ScotlandinEurope
yahhhhhh
historic photo op for nicola, now cameron has pissed off, i wonder
if nicola will give a press conference where we can see both flags and will she bring her own lectern too 🙂
https://twitter.com/jujikucz
@ Valerie says at 12:01 am …. ”Petra … Just caught that Soubry Muppet, getting down with the youngsters, and getting all emosh. I was gagging watching it.”
I can’t stand the woman. She’s one of a number of people who’s contributed greatly to creating this Brexit problem and is now ranting and raving about racism saying ”I wish I had got out and about a bit more, listened, and done something about it.” Aye right.
………………………………………………..
@ Valerie …. ”Did you know Gordon Brown didn’t even attend the signing of the Lisbon Treaty? We have 40 years of slights inflicted by this country on the EU.”
Yeah the wee fly man initially got Miliband to sign it on his behalf.
‘Absence of Gordon Brown …. British Prime Minister Gordon Brown was the only national representative who was planned to sign the Treaty in the ceremony but did not take part, leaving Foreign Secretary David Miliband to sign the Treaty alone. Instead, he signed the document at a lunch for heads of state and government later the same day. A requirement to appear before a committee of British MPs was cited as the reason for his absence. This brought criticism from opposition parties. The Conservatives claimed it made him appear “gutless” and referred to it as a “stunt” which proved Brown was “not very good at international diplomacy”. The Liberal Democrats claimed it raised “serious questions” and Chris Huhne said showed “inept and peevish behaviour that leaves Gordon Brown’s reputation for honest dealing with our EU partners hanging by a thread”. Parts of British media also criticised Brown for this, suggesting he did it because he was ashamed to sign the Treaty, with Nick Robinson, BBC Political Editor, claiming that Brown was capable of attending the signing but instead chose not to.’ Wikipedia.
………………………………………………….
@ Valerie …. ”Finally, how about this for timing, and of course, it won’t be reported.”
http://www.centreforwelfarereform.org/news/uk-in-breachhuman-rights/00287.html#.V3Kw3ES0f3g.twitter
Maybe they’ll be planning to pull out of the UN next, lol.
…………………………………………….
@ Famous15 says at 12:15 am …. ”Sneaky attacks on Ms Sturgeon and her constituency exemplified by the letter to the Metro blaming her for a mattress lying uncollected in a street in Govanhill! ( btw who is responsible for that refuse collection? SNP must centralise LA duties?)”
That was Labour run Glasgow City Council’s responsibility, Famous15 and I think we’ve all got a good idea as to why they weren’t uplifting refuse in Nicola’s constituency.
……………………………………….
@ Robert J. Sutherland says at 12:15 am …. ”Petra I was at a talk by Curtice tonight, and among various interesting points he made, he showed that most polls were too close to call, as he had indeed stated himself in the run-up to the vote. The biggest outlier that gave Remain the win was actually a private poll done for David Cameron, so he was misled by his own pollster! …….”
Incidentally, he also believed the poll evidence did not show that Corbyn had failed to perform. ~37% of Labour voters chose “Leave”, but they were substantially (esp. in the north of England) in the socio-economic categories most likely to support Brexit. Instead he declared Cameron the real failure: 68% (or 58%, I forget now) of Tory voters chose “Leave” in complete defiance of their leader’s advocacy for the other side.
Another interesting stat was that people who describe themselves as “English only” were by far the biggest in favour of “Leave”. In effect the referendum was won by the English Nationalists!
Someone should inform the Scot-Buts just whose side they think they are on. (And psst: also the ~36% woefully deluded ScotNats who voted the exact same way as the EngNats.)
The leavers biggest issues were sovereignity, followed in fairly short order by immigration. Another point for the Scot-Buts to note: the leavers expected at least some economic loss, but didn’t care too much!.”
Thanks for that Robert REALLY interesting. Lots to take in.
……………………………………….
@ Valerie says at 12:29 am …. ”When Mr McGuiness shook her (Queenie’s) hand, and asked if she was well, her response – ”well, I’m still alive.” It must be on her mind, as it was so readily blurted out. Thank fck I won’t be here to see the sacking of Buck house.”
Ha, ha, ha, ha. Brilliant. And, EH, you never know with the way things are going.
How would it be to have a snap referendum on say 01/09/16 while or opponents are distracted with their career plans. Would they have the energy to engage? A bit whacky I know…..but….
Tam Jardine with an ” absolutely classic comment” at 1224 am !
@ schrodingers cat says at 1:17am ……
Jurek Kuczkiewicz ?@jujikucz 2h2 hours ago
So finally @JunckerEU will receive @NicolaSturgeon this Wednesday #ScotlandinEurope
yahhhhhh
historic photo op for nicola, now cameron has pissed off, i wonder if nicola will give a press conference where we can see both flags and will she bring her own lectern too :)” https://twitter.com/jujikucz
Great stuff SC. I wonder how the meeja will report this now?
With a Repeat (and it’s for real now): ”Nicola Sturgeon the most dangerous woman in the UK.”
Shrodingers cat 12.58
I think you are right about any deal to remain in both Union’s being smoke and mirrors.
Just from one of the many many things that would get unacceptably complicated.
How would anybody traveling in mainland Europe identity themselves as a Scot and therefore entitled to all the rights and privileges of an EU citizen eg healthcare.
The only sure way is holding a different passport and imagine all the implications of that,and that’s just an off the top of my head example.
Also a detail how far down the list ?
I think the real question is how far these fantasy arrangement’s need to be taken before the obvious conclusions are reached.
What a night it was in Malaga: Adios Ingles: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-7vq
schrodingers cat says:
28 June, 2016 at 11:59 pm
3. the main reason such an arrangement wont happen is the snp dont want it anyway. these negotiations are a stalling tactic until support for yes reaches 60%, at which point nicola can dismiss any such discussions as unfeasable and undesirable.
and then launch indyref2
————–
I think she is being genuine.
If there was a way for Scotland to continue membership as some sort of federal nation within the UK, she would go with that as the next step.
It seems like that would be possible in theory, but it would involve negotiations and agreement between Scotland, the UK and the EU as part of any Brexit negotiations.
I don’t think it is likely from a Tory government, but then again, perhaps they see the alternative is a risk of losing Scotland completely.
It would also need agreement from Europe, and Spain might be a problem, but it could be made clear that Scotland is in a unique situation as an ancient European nation.
I don’t think this is a likely scenario, but anything is possible with a bit of flexibility. It seems a far cleaner situation to have independence, and then forge a new relationship with the remaining UK, maybe including a sterling zone.
Swedish EU Minister asks Cameron during press conference
“What’s is you Plan B?” The irony.
ha ha ha ha ha
@ Grouse Beater says at 1:48 am …. ”What a night it was in Malaga: Adios Ingles.” http://wp.me/p4fd9j-7vq
Absolutely brilliant GB. At times I feel so humbled (and so proud) by the sheer number of talented people who frequent this site.
Liz g says:
I think the real question is how far these fantasy arrangement’s need to be taken before the obvious conclusions are reached.
as long as it takes us to convince another 5% to switch from no 2 yes
Onwards says:
I think she is being genuine.
So do I
It seems like that would be possible in theory…
thats my point, anything is possible in theory but where i agree with rock is that in practice, it isnt going to happen.
Tam Jardine says:
29 June, 2016 at 12:24 am
So now we’re the European Unionists about to start fighting a referendum against the vile nationalist separatist movement down south.
Christ. Time to go and lie down.
————
Good thing is we won’t be the small minded, inwards looking separatists if we have a second indyref.
Still don’t know if fighting a second referendum on a pledge to automatically remain in the EU is the best way to go.
I wanted to Remain, but there are still a lot of working class people who voted Leave and genuinely seem to think the EU is the demon the tabloids portrayed have it as.
Maybe better to have indyref2 on the issue of taking back control, and then leave a decision on the EU and future currency to the voters afterwards.
Then again, I reckon the vast majority of SNP Leave supporters would still vote YES again regardless – if it came down to a choice between a European nation state or a region of the UK.
We would have to make it very clear we would still have far more powers. If the UK starts to go into a recession and lose jobs, there could be a Brexit backlash by the time of a Scottish referendum.
Re Alyn Smith’s statement to EU.
Notice no other Guffie MEP, apart from ‘Farting Farage’, was seen to be heard. And didn’t he make an arse of it. Other MEPs were well versed in the lies he & his ilk spouted during the campaign & he was duly informed of them. He sat there like a child who’d been caught with his hand in the sweetie jar, his inane grin there to be seen by all.
Certainly, one Guffie who uses toilet paper to wipe his mouth.
She is serious. Seriously making sure that she gets as many Scots on board as possible before setting sail on the good ship Independence. That’s the only objective of this exploration exercise. We have quite literally been expressing our desire for self determination through every available means over this past two years. Yes we lost the Indy vote. We then removed Labour from Westminster and reduced Slabour to a stump in the Holyrood elections.
We just voted 62% to stay in Europe. In less than 5 days out from that vote our parliament voted for Nicola to try by all means necessary to secure our continued membership in the EU. That involves a round of talks with other European ministers and delegates to ascertain our status in this unprecedented situation. We will be accommodated. She will seek to secure assurances that should we go for Indyref2 that there is no blocking our path to continued membership of the EU as well as ascertaining whether our continued membership is possible in the UK context. Thereby quieting the naysayers.
She is simply removing obstacles to reassure and bring on board that percentage of voters that we need to ensure a definitive win should we go ahead with Indyref2. Next will be the currency issue. But I am certain that those advisors brought in to form the Standing Council will also be involved in working through every aspect and variation imaginable to ensure the transition to our Independence is as smooth as possible.
They will trial every scenario in an attempt to hone our one and only safe option out of this total mess. Occam’s razor is being employed here, it is the most brilliant display of diplomatic maneuvering that we are ever likely to witness. From the pov of those still hesitant about the proposition she is respecting their choice in 2014 by attempting by all means possible to keep us in the EU short of declaring Indyref2. At the same time keeping Indyref as ‘likely’ in the event of being unable to achieve this. Which keeps the rest of us on board.
She can and is being utterly honest whilst holding the entire population’s differing outlook in her mind at once. This is a win win outcome that she is attempting here. If the option to maintain our EU citizenship fails having attempted every possible route to secure it. Then she has to ‘go to the country’. If the option succeeds, she will most likely still have to go to the country depending on what the specific deal looks like.
We will be getting a referendum either way. But be assured this isn’t on the same terms as the first. We cannot and will not accept being ruled by the extreme right wing of the Tory party, in Scotland. We will win and it will be decisive.
Nicola Sturgeon and all our ministers know exactly what they are doing. Of that I have no doubt.
If the EU want to play hardball with Westminster to make them trigger art.50, they could threaten to expel them under art.7 using the UN report as evidence.
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/28/buried-un-slams-tories-uk-human-rights-abuses/
Funny, I seemed to miss this being reported by the BBC but then they have been too busy trying to prevent a left of centre party existing.
Been watching BBC1 as I usually do in the background as I’m working, and they’re showing the Alyn Smith thing very well. Also Farage of course. But they’re also showing the Belgian guy talking there, what a hero!
Onwards @ 12.40
I do think we should be fighting the next referendum on the merits of staying in the EU.
But not on the same old same old, it’s the economy,its good for trade,the banks and big business would prefer it and might treat us better.
But rather,why should I give up my citizenship and rights,
why should everybody else’s kid’s get to bing bong round the mainland,while most of ours are more or less stuck on this Island.
Why do those Pensioners get to go live in the sunshine,and not worry about healthcare.
Why would I choose to be a subject with Duties,on an Island with a glass ceiling,when me and mine can make use of the rights and privileges afforded to us by cooperating with the rest of the population of this Continent?
Hope you get my meaning.
Most people it seems to me no matter how “politically”disengaged do at least resist having their rights removed.
When it is made clear that is what is happening,an argument that was all but invisible during the Brexit campaign.
Just IMHO people will want to protect their rights over economics evey time.
They might never use those rights but they still won’t want to just give them up.
@Yesindyref2
Quite a few familiar names in that council of advisors Dads, though one sticks out in particular, Dr Zuleeg of the EPC. Remember him? During indyref1, one of the few EU voices, along with Graham Avery, who stood out as talking common sense on the European issue as regards Scotland’s possible progress.
Impressive team throughout though.
Cearc @ 3.23
That UN report is shocking,but worse than that not a bit surprising.
I’m sure they will bury it deep
Paula Rose: “I went into a pub today and ordered a pint – it was full of burly men but I was on a mission.”
Classic! You can take the lass out of St. Kilda, but you can’t take St. Kilda out of the lass. 😉
@Macart
Yes, it’s a good team. And it allows for “rotating” extra members. I’d recommend Neil Walker for one, fairly neutral to Indy as far as I’ve been able to tell in the past, a bit UK focussed but that gives a different perspective which is useful. Interesting work in view of the EU ref Leave from him here:
http://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/7183/Neil-Walker-In-Out-or-In-Between-Rebooting-Britain-in-Europe-after-the-Brexit-Referendum.aspx
A bit critical of Alex Salmond in this older article:
http://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/392/Neil-Walker-Beyond-the-Black-and-White-of-Legal-Advice.aspx
Criticism is good, as long as it’s constructive.
@Dr Jim
Herald’s improved the headline on that article – must have read your comment!
The Farague EU statement and the replies were censored by the British Press. The EU members called Farague out for telling lies. Milking the EU for 17 years and having an offshore fund. The majority of people in Britain wanted to stay in the EU.
Westminster are making people angry and sick, with their lies and cover up.
Nicola would not be meeting Donald Tusk. He is (the elected, rotated) the ceremonial Head, with no powers. He (or his staff) organise the meetings.
Nicola meeting with Juncker later today. Lots happening now, Christian Allard been on French tv and Angus Robertson on German tv. Something going on today in parliament re no opposition in Westminster. Keeping an eye on that, I believe John Nicolson has a plan?
http://www.scottishenergynews.com/atlantis-assemble-tidal-turbines-prior-to-summer-installation-at-scotland-uks-first-commercial-marine-energy-parc/
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/kirsty-hughes/scotland-and-eu-post-brexit-independent-scotland-in-eu-or-outside-with-uk
http://www.legalcheek.com/2016/06/university-of-liverpool-eu-law-lecturers-incredible-out-of-office-email-response-to-bremain-haters/
http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/First-Minister-s-statement-on-EU-referendum-25c5.aspx
For anyone interested in the labour coup
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/28/truth-behind-labour-coup-really-began-manufactured-exclusive/
PMSL Radio shortbread reporting Angus Robertsons putting forward a proposal to Westminster that SNP become the Official Opposition, noo you could,nt make that up
OK wtf?! Totally paranoid now. Haven’t been able to get on here since 6.15am. Then all a sudden here it is!
Theresa May?
The odds are only a predictor IFF the propensity to bet and the amount available is evenly distributed across all sections of the voting public AND correlates exactly with tendency to vote.
Since we know no such thing and have good reasons to doubt the above is true then except by accident the odds cannot predict voting patterns unless it is for horse of the year.
Warm Spanish nights and are you local? http://wp.me/p4fd9j-7vq
No time to read the whole piece but Gordon Brown’s piece on the Guardian site starts with a belter. Would appreciate if someone could archive.
“There is a real danger that we spend the next decade refighting last week’s referendum. If Scotland’s recent experience is anything to go by – where there are now two entrenched camps of yes and no voters in the aftermath of the 2014 independence referendum – then the battle lines drawn in a bitterly fought and polarising EU referendum will define our politics for years to come.”
Can you spot the glaring error in Gordon’s piece? There WERE two entrenched camps of yes and no voters. One camp is suddenly anything but entrenched and it ain’t the yes side!
The guy who said we should vote no to “lead the UK, not leave the UK” proposing solutions.
Ian Davidson ex labour MP on radio shortbread telling it how it is on Jeremy Corbyn and the PLP renegade MP mutineers. He says they live in the Westminster bubble and are out of touch with the members and think they are more important than they are.
He says Bretrix only an excuse to try and oust Corbyn as he wants to bring about change in the way the party is run with more power to the membership. Many of those mutineers might find themselves deselected if they’re not careful.
Meanwhile Angus Robertson with tongue in cheek will ask Bercow the Speaker in WM to recognise the SNP as the official opposition. 🙂
Much merriment darn South as the whole rotten system of MPs pack their suitcases and bugger off for their holidays leaving Sturgeon as the only visible sign of somebody doing anything.
Good luck today Sturgeon.
Ronnie, yes radio 5 Live have just announced the same…the SNP are asking to become the official opposition party in the HoC. Haha maybe Cameron didn’t lie when he said he wanted Scotland to play an important part in Westminster. So funny. How can the House refuse? Labour only have 40 followers.
Ronnie Anderson says:
“PMSL Radio shortbread reporting Angus Robertsons putting forward a proposal to Westminster that SNP become the Official Opposition, noo you could,nt make that up”
This may seem like a bit of political mischief making from Angus, but then again there may be something going on behind the scenes that makes this move by the SNP make sense.
The London Elite have been letting everyone and their granny know that they don’t think Corbyn pulled his weight during the referendum.
Now London voted Remain as did Scotland and one of the first meeting oor Nicola attended was with the London mayor (and I’m sure a lot of interested parties would have also been there)
If London’s stock market traders and other assorted crooks thought that the SNP would protect their interests better than the Labour Party, would that constitute a time when the ‘Remembrencer’ would whisper into Berclows (the Westminster Speakers) ear?
The Remembrencer has one job…to ensure that any decision made in the ‘House’ does not harm the prosperity of London, so I wonder?
@cearc
Re UN report. Thanks for highlighting it.
Thing is, most of the abuse is not coincidental, it is a direct result of policy.
What makes it very relevant right now is that this is the type of UK the Brexit people want to reinforce.
@ cearc Posted your 3.23am post on Scot 2.Scot.xx
Gordy Broon going to the scotparl today, what is he up to I wonder.
http://www.scottishenergynews.com/atlantis-assemble-tidal-turbines-prior-to-summer-installation-at-scotland-uks-first-commercial-marine-energy-parc/
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/kirsty-hughes/scotland-and-eu-post-brexit-independent-scotland-in-eu-or-outside-with-uk
http://www.legalcheek.com/2016/06/university-of-liverpool-eu-law-lecturers-incredible-out-of-office-email-response-to-bremain-haters/
For anyone interested in the labour coup, Iraq inquiry?
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/28/truth-behind-labour-coup-really-began-manufactured-exclusive/
The majority in Britain wanted to stay in the EU. Including the EU citizens resident in the UK, who (illegally) did not get to vote.
The Greek Gov was responsible for the Greek economy (ditto all other EU country economies).Not the EU. All the EU organisation has done is to try and help them it out.
Many Brexit voters are the ones who are being unfairly targeted by Westminster/Unionist unfair policies and lies.
Eamonn Homes could barely hide his contempt this morning, just after 0835 on SKY news. He said, oh, look, now they are all queuing up to get in front of the cameras, now we have Nicola Sturgeon. What a silly opinionated wee man.
Fact is, we are now in uncharted territory. With each passing day, the ‘rules’ are becoming blurred more and more. I think down in London, they no longer really care that much if Scotland does become independent.
The hard REALpolitik of all of this, is simply that if you argue we must respect the EU referendum result to leave, then by the same argument, we must respect the result for Scotland to stay. It is that simple.
Still certain people in the media in England sneer, as they discuss the SNP.
I do think an important stage has now been passed, the Scottish Government has its priorities correct – looking after the interests of SCOTLAND, in or out of the broken ‘union’ with England. THAT is their mandate.
Tam Jardine
https://archive.is/LIJvy
@ Patrick Roden Sorry Patrick for the life of me I cant see that happening both Tory/Lab/Libs will give short shift to Angus’s proposal, cant have the sweaty jocks showing up the Mother of all Fekup parliaments.
But will interesting to see the Media’s response lol.
@ Macart says at 3:51 am …. ”Quite a few familiar names in that council of advisors Dads, though one sticks out in particular, Dr Zuleeg of the EPC. Remember him? During indyref1, one of the few EU voices, along with Graham Avery, who stood out as talking common sense on the European issue as regards Scotland’s possible progress. Impressive team throughout though.”
I see that Dame Mariot Leslie is sitting on Nicola’s Standing Council of Experts. A Scot who was UK Ambassador to NATO. She retired from that post just before Indyref1, said she was voting Yes for Independence and that Scotland would have no problem continuing to be a member of NATO. Taking into account our geographical location I would imagine they’d be bending over backwards to hold onto us. England on the otherhand, following Independence, will become more and more of a bit of a nonenity as a country especially if we ‘inherit’ their financial centre.
Aye I had forgotten the remembrancer!
He’s charged in his role to nudge the speaker politely when any political events impinge on the City of London’s interests and give the speaker guidance.
It would indeed be funny if, after Robertson makes his request, Bercow sort of leans over and has a wee chat with remembrancer out of earshot (what’s the weather like) and then turns around to Robertson and with sombre authority calls it out of order! But smiling as he does.
PS:
55000 banking jobs to Scotland if independent and in the EU says expert on radio shortbread earlier.
Get those brass plates polished.
Funny old banking world init!
Oh, and just watch, as politicians in Westminster, have now started using the terms ‘europe’ and ‘EU’ interchangably. Both are very different things. So far not one journalist has picked up on this.
It is not accidental.
http://archive.is/i5TRK
“What will Nicola Sturgeon be asking European leaders for?
Sarah Smith
Scotland editor”
Typical EBC biased article, in tone and opinion. Assertions with no facts to back up the opinions expressed. Thinly veiled NicolaBad, SNPBad, ScotlandBad.
Then again, that’s what Smith is paid to do.
Morning folks.
Everyone seems to be talking down a “reverse Greenland” idea. And I understand the argument but the debate on this is always framed as Scotland/Ireland/Gibraltar as being Greenland.
Can it not presented as England being Greenland and choosing to leave.
If it is a uk vote as mentioned why do we always assume and start these arguments in surrendering immediately that England is the boss of the U.K. The stumbling block is it would be a reverse Greenland. Why not just accept it as an exact replica of the Denmark/Greenland eu membership and boarders and look on it as England wants to be Greenland and leave.
That seems workable and a lot less complicated that flipping it on its head.
What can you say??? Cearc @ 3:23
I suppose the English won’t starve with so many chickens coming home to roost. That’s if they get through immigration right enough…
It’s like the rest of the world is having England’s revolution for them.
@ Ruby says at 8:58 am …. ‘Tam Jardine’ https://archive.is/LIJvy
EH! Anybody else wondering if politicians should have to go through psychiatric and psychological assessment before they’re unleashed on the World?
The latest from Gordon Brown:
”Of course, the country will look first to the Tory party to see whether it can unite Britain. But the party that can best tame globalisation is the Labour party. Today’s vote among the parliamentary Labour party focused on our electability. But there is a more profound challenge than whether we are a party of protest or a party of power. We have to decide that we cannot simply be an anti-globalisation party that exploits grievances but offers no answers. Only then can a reformed Labour party show that we can make a currently leaderless globalisation work for the people of Britain.”
Labour’s leader in Scotland, Kezia Dugdale, suggested Mr Corbyn’s position was untenable, telling the BBC: “If I had lost the support of 80% of my MSPs I could not do my job.”
Insert your own punchline
Could England possibly be the most disliked country in the world.
Grouse Beater says:
I really enjoyed reading your article and look forward to more about Spain.
Any comments re Gibraltar & Catalonia?
Do you think the people in Andalucia are more laid back about Catalonia than say people from Madrid. Do you think the people in Andalucia are more laid back about everything except perhaps Gibraltar?
Buenas Vacaciones!
@galamcennalath says:9:10 am
““What will Nicola Sturgeon be asking European leaders for?”
Hopefully some help in ridding our country of the woeful BBC. Some legislation to free up the airwaves from government control would be fine fro starters.
I’m trying to work out if Gordon Brown heard Nicola was off to Europe and thought it would be safe to visit Scotland or if Nicola heard he was coming and decided to flee to Europe.
Petra says:
29 June, 2016 at 9:14 am
@ Ruby says at 8:58 am …. ‘Tam Jardine’ https://archive.is/LIJvy
EH! Anybody else wondering if politicians should have to go through psychiatric and psychological assessment before they’re unleashed on the World?
Ruby replies
Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think this Gordon Brown person is a politician.
I believe is in an after dinner entertainer who lives in America.
PS When are we going to get the Chilot report?
Heard a bookie rep. (Ladbrooks?) being interviewed by Garry Robertson on BBC Radio Scotland…… The bookie said political betting odds were based on the total value of bets placed not on the number of bets…… Now isn’t that strange…… They are using a system that allows big money to influence odds that are used as an indicator to public opinion……… One further simplification gives……. The Bookies in The UK have a system of political betting that……
allows big money to dictate an indicator of public opinion…….
Hence it’s no surprise that the bookies got it wrong……..
Gordon Brown and his associates (US) destroyed the world economy and killed millions of innocent people. Blair and Brown should be in jail. It is because of them, their policies and their lies that a minority of disillusioned in England have voted to leave the EU. Brown is a world enemy for vulnerable people. The British Labour Party is finished. Brown and Blair buried it.
Brown’s lies, incompetence and deleverage of world banking and support for illegal wars, destroyed the world economy, causing mass migration and social problems. Brown is unelected and unelectable. Annoying people with more lies and no apology for the trouble that they caused. All for personal gain. They should hang their heads in shame. Not tell even more lies.
Ruby says:
“I believe is in an after dinner entertainer who lives in America.”
Pulling hats out of rabbits kind of thing? 😉
@Grouse beater,
That article is for me,one of the best things you have ever written. Thank you.
With the turmoil of the exit of the EU, the Scottish public and the rest of the UK have been desensitised to a major change in the Constitution of the UK.
This will now make many people feel comfortable with the transition of Scotland becoming Independent. So rather that the ‘Step into the unknown’, in comparison, it will now feel like a walk in the park.
One_Scot says:
29 June, 2016 at 9:21 am
Could England possibly be the most disliked country in the world.
Ruby replies
If they are then I suspect that would be down to arrogance.
There is so much happening I’ve missed loads. What has the ‘Wicked Witch Ruth’ been saying to the people of Central Edinburgh?
@galamcennalath,
you say `that is what Smith is paid for`
Smith would talk down Nicola,SNP,her own country,for free,
like Kaye and Bird, and Magnusson,
they hate anything that shows Scotland in a good light,you can see it on their face,
I have no idea why they all hate their own country,
could be Oslo syndrome,
http://tinyurl.com/hpwx9wx
a bit like Stockholm syndrome but more to do with Nations instead of individuals.
Almannysbunnet
AYe he only came to Scotland cos Nicola left. Whats he doing here anyway? He didn’t know where the parliament was when he was ‘in power’. so why now?
Also the Labour party knows how to shoot itself when its down. All those Blairites should resign as MPs as well if they feel they can’t work with their boss.
Nicola is playing a blinder and the EBC , and MSM don’t like it
The Bookie usually get it right, that is why they are still in business. Using their odds as an indicator of anything is misleading. Big money does influence the Odds. They have insider/dealing information. Crooked. A game of chance. The Pollster always get it wrong they are influence by money. They can illegally influence the result. Gerrymandering. They are never sanctioned or fined.
So the clunking fist crash broon will be in our parliament today can we have the men with the straight jackets and white van standing by the guy still thinks he is PM and not just a failed politician.
Petra,
you’re right and I would add the Voight-Kampff test to that just to be on the safe side.
Smith is determined to talk herself out of a job. She has already talked herself out of a programme. No viewers, no programme. Lies, incompetence and an insult to people. BBC Scotland.
Political bias.
Why is Gordon Brown in the Parliament. He is unelected and unelectable. Same as most of the ‘opposition’. Hasn’t he done enough damage?
Oh look. Nicola to meet JC Juncker after all. No snub then
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980
Nana says at 8:52 am …. https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/kirsty-hughes/scotland-and-eu-post-brexit-independent-scotland-in-eu-or-outside-with-uk
Thanks for that Nana. Really interesting. ”Timing will be important – the UK might leave the EU before an independent Scotland could join.”
Scotland would have to hold an Independence Referendum within the next 12 months!
”The choices open to Scotland on the EU will depend on whether – and when – Scotland votes for independence in a second referendum.
If Scotland goes for independence: Becoming an EU member state should, in essence, be straightforward. Scotland already meets all EU economic and political criteria for membership, has MEPs in the European Parliament, participates in EU regional, education, research and cultural programmes, and meets almost all the EU’s ‘acquis’ of laws and regulations – except for those where the UK has opted-out.
There will be two main challenges for an independent Scotland in becoming an EU member state in its own right …..
EU Politics of Scotland becoming an independent member state: The politics of joining will be easier than in 2014. In the first few days since the Brexit vote, several EU political figures have spoken positively about Scotland staying in the EU…..
Ireland’s Fianna Fail leader already said, if Scotland votes for independence its EU membership should be fast-tracked…..
Timing will be important – the UK might leave the EU before an independent Scotland could join.
Amidst the current chaos, the EU is said to have pencilled in January 2019 for the UK’s exit from the EU – this assumes the UK will have activated the EU’s exit clause, Article 50, by the end of the year.
If there is a second independence referendum, unless it is held in the next six to twelve months, then it is unlikely Scotland could both vote for independence and complete talks over the terms of the divorce with the rest of the UK (rUK) before the UK leaves the EU…..
So the UK could be out of the EU, before Scotland is an independent state separate from the UK. But as long as Scotland has held a successful independence referendum before the UK leaves, then talks with both Westminster and Brussels would have to take this new political reality into account and establish transitional procedures accordingly. There will be no point in Scotland repealing EU laws only to pass them again a few years later. It will be tricky but not impossible.
If Scotland held an independence referendum by mid-2017 – and the vote was ‘yes’ – then it could probably complete talks with London by the end of 2018 and, in parallel, hold talks with Brussels on its accession deals within that time period too. Given Scotland is already part of the EU, there is no reason that talks should need more than a few months….
If rUK ended up in the European Economic Area (with Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein), this would make Scotland-rUK relations the most straightforward as both would still be part of the Single Market. This would entail rUK accepting free movement still….
What is inconceivable is that Scotland while part of the UK state could also somehow be an EU member state. EU member states are able to sign international treaties, give the EU competence to negotiate trade deals on their behalf, agree unanimous foreign policy positions, and conclude EU treaties and treaty changes together. To do this, Scotland would need to be independent.
Independence for Scotland would be the most straightforward route to staying in the EU, and would give Scotland a seat at the top table.
galamcennalath says:
29 June, 2016 at 9:34 am
Ruby says:
“I believe he is in an after dinner entertainer who lives in America.”
Pulling hats out of rabbits kind of thing? ?
Ruby replies
Yeah that and perhaps a bit of dancing!
http://tinyurl.com/zgurejn
http://archive.is/LIJvy
Coffee time with Crash, project fear threats and lies
Crash threatens us
“£46bn of Scotland’s annual trade and 1 million jobs are linked with England, while £12bn in trade and 250,000 jobs are linked with mainland Europe – but also because we cannot speak meaningfully and convincingly of interdependence and solidarity – or of our desire for cooperation and sharing – with our neighbours across the North Sea, without a sense of how we can work with our nearest neighbours who share the same small island.”
Crash lies about us
“Second, we must quickly end uncertainty over Britain’s future relationships with Europe with the same kind of an in-depth scrutiny of all the possibilities – the Norwegian, Swiss, Canadian and World Trade Organisation model –”
How they sneered and jeered at Yesers and their dreams of Norway. Also but not only, the Norwegians, Swiss, Canadians take in more immigration than the UK does now. So christ knows what the EU will do when likes of Crash Gordon show up with their all new and exciting Brexit models.
I hope Nicola while she is out in the EU trying to free us also asks when they would like the war criminal broon delivered to the Hague.
Lessons in hubris
http://archive.is/peN3w
“England might have invented the game but a look at their record over the last 50 years shows it is an awfully long time since they saw any royalties.
The latest ordeal might be the most grievous of the lot and, once again, it is difficult not to marvel at the pomposity of a nation that has a clock on the wall of its football operation, St George’s Park, noting the day England apparently win the 2022 World Cup.”
Nicola so polished and what a smile
https://twitter.com/TomBoadle/status/748059276745256960?lang=en-gb
I was watching france tv as well as other channels, can not remember where I saw Nicola arriving in Brussels.
Anyway might have been here
http://www.euronews.com/news/streaming-live/
The Yoon media is so predictable, I could probably write tomorrows Yoon headlines,
‘Blow for Sturgeon as EU parliament janitor utterly refuses to meet Sturgeon’
I can’t lie, I don’t like what’s happening to Yingerland. There are a lot of good people about to have their world turned upside down, and due to the BBC, it will hit them like a freight train because they still don’t see it coming.
I have friends with young kids, and I don’t know whether to help them access Scottish residency so a career in Europe is there if they want it. It’s their predicament, but its not their fault. What do you do? I feel a bit mushy about it.
But then I think about your Sarah Smiths. Your Sally Magnussons and all the other BBC mouth pieces who conspired to denegrate Scotland and foul our 2014 YES referendum. I hope they can hear and see the same freight train coming. Thank you ladies and gentlemen. Your services are no longer required.
@Liz Rannoch says: 29 June, 2016 at 8:26 am:
“OK wtf?! Totally paranoid now. Haven’t been able to get on here since 6.15am. Then all a sudden here it is!
Yes. Me too. Though it seemed like a DNS server error with them not recognising some websites.
I tried flushing the DNS cache but didn’t get the chance to follow through as I had a caller at the door that needed me to leave my attempts to resolve the problem.
By the time the guy left Wings was up again.
If any of you are connected to high-ups in the SNP there is a key point they need to factor in
1. The Irish Government is the only one of the 27 Governments that is going to be fighting for Britain in the upcoming negotiations
2. The strength of the economy and peace on the Island of Ireland is regarded by all Irish political parties in the Republic as totally mission – critical
3. Ireland has a veto on any proposals and any settlement with the EU
4. Retention of an open boarder and free trade with the UK will be Ireland’s bottom line and they will not shift from it
5. A British-irish conference will have to be convened to amend the Northern Ireland Act and the British / Irish Peace Treaty of 1998 – otherwise known sat the Good Friday Agreement or Belfast Agreement which contain clear references to the EU and obligations to EU. Law
6. The Treaty is registered with the UN and cannot be modified without Irish Government consent, and even then, this may trigger a referendum in the Republic who have a written constitution that refers to this Treaty, morally it might trigger a referendum in NI too, but the UK can over-ride this
7. The current Irish Government is led by a Neo-colonial party called Fine Gael which sees itself as the Irish version of the Tory party (think exact opposite of Sinn Féin). It’s what the Scottish Tory party is going to look like in an independent Scotland. It is a minority administration It is dependent on independents and parties that canhave with a polar opposite view for a majority in the Dail
8. The ideal configuration for The Irish establishment will be NI continuing in the EU and in the UK and free travel and trade with the rest of the UK
9. This is what Nichola is seeking for Scotland – Britain have to come up with a modification to the PeaceTreaty that will suit Irleland, and an agreement with the EU u that Ireland will not veto
10. Seems to me that the SNP has the right via the Scottish Goverment to seek the convening of the intra-parliamentary group if the Isles to discuss this
11. All parties in NI would support this, except the DUP. However their official committment to putting little England ahead of the economy in NI is Luke-warm and the other parties have a majority in Stormont on this one
“Little Iceland” and “Big England”
Kate HoeyVerified account
?@KateHoeyMP
So sorry for English fans but little Iceland thrives outside the EU,fish their own waters AND win through to quarter finals @Euro16Updates
Come on, fair’s fair. Betfair does not set the odds. The attraction of Betfair for many punters is that they set their own odds and “trade” bets on an open market. The dramatic convergence of the 2 lines is a function of each and every binary market in Betfair as the certainty of a result becomes clear and people try to make marginal gains on large stakes at diminished odds. This happens in football, horse racing (bet or lay a particular horse as it clears the last fence), you name it.
Clearly you did not invent the graphic but a little context might be good.
If Scotland *doesn’t* vote for independence in IndyRef2 after all that has happened – and is still happening – in Westminster and its environs since the Brexit vote, then we Scots really are too stupid….
Cannae see it masel, but! 🙂
@ Nana says at 8:52 am …. ”For anyone interested in the labour coup, Iraq inquiry?”
Politics in the UK is so corrupt now, absolutely riddled with corruption, that I don’t see any positive future at all for the people of these Islands. EVER.
We have to get out of this ASAP and THANK GOD we’ve got a ‘get out of jail card’. I feel heart sorry for the millions of decent people living in England, and more so Wales, who have nowhere to turn and see their beloved former ‘Great’ Britain being absolutely decimated by these criminals. If I was living there I’d be suffering from profound depression, maybe even to the point of feeling suicidal.
Nazi UKip will be on the rise with all that entails … racist attacks and so on … and the Tories and Labour are beyond the pale. I just don’t know what the answer is to this nightmarish dilemma. Anyone else thinking that the LibDems may become England’s saviour now? Or is it beyond saving? And from a purely selfish point of view, living in an Independent Scotland, I don’t really want them for a ‘neighbour’. It’s not really desirable.
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/28/truth-behind-labour-coup-really-began-manufactured-exclusive/
I see the Herald persists in pushing the Nicola photo with the Union jack arse on the steps in Glasgow.
Also not up to speed with the correct details of her itinerary.
Ah well some things never change 🙂
BBC radio Scotland , morning Moanin Kay Adams subject, how is Brexit affecting immigrants. Just had on Alisdair Allan MSP (SNP) Hardly allowed to talk for interruptions. Then got rid off with “this is supposed to be a phone-in and we’re not getting to talk to callers” …..Adams has got two women on the studio , both are allowed to talk at length without interruption and ……
are not callers.
@call me dave
I thought the Herald was supposed to come out in support of Independence if the UK left the EU or did I imagine it?
From ‘The Herald’:
“Sturgeon is snubbed by Brussels leadership”
A mega fib from a BUM rag supposedly “on the cusp”.
_____
Meanwhile, re Nics trip to Brussels, Nicola is on nothing more than a fact finding mission and to gauge support. Those facts, of course, she will be already aware of but for her to be able to quote some high-level members will blow all the filthy lying tractors out of the water when they attempt to counter our arguments with their lies and deceit.
Just look at the qualifications and experience of the advisory team she has put together and compare that to who the Unionists have advising them on what’s good for Scotland (Mundell and to just recently Murray) and you get a clear picture of just how clever she is.
It’s akin to the mighty Brazil taking on the Blue Brazil.
You almost want to phone someone and report her for cruelty.
🙂
(Apologies to non-football fans who’ll not get that one)
the media led by the BBC doing all they can to rubbish Nicolas visit to the heart of EU power they know the pivotal role Scotland has in the defence of europe’s northern border its vital strategic position to Nato protecting the North Atlantic,
our fishing Oil & Gas fields are a vital asset , you bet Westminster will be in overdrive to downplay any direct connection between us and Europe , we just need the balls to tell westminster to go f/k themselves
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/nicola-sturgeon-brussels-discuss-options-scotland
With the amount of ‘bull’ that is coming from the Yoon media, you would be forgiven for thinking that they are starting to realise they’re losing their control over Scotland.
Here is Angus on Austrian tv last night. Unfortunately no sub titles but sure there will be some wingers who understand
http://tvthek.orf.at/program/ZIB-2/1211/ZIB-2/13117502/Gespraech-mit-dem-schottischen-Politiker-Robertson/13117577
@ Robert Peffers 10.15
Thanks for easing my para brow. Not too up on ‘puter stuff (hmmm what’s a DNS cache?) Can just about provide a link!
@ Kevan Evans 9.13
“Can it not presented as England being Greenland and choosing to leave”
what a great idea – needs looking into. Precedent?
I hope Nicola tells sarah smith to get to f/k and go and try to get an interview with someone else
The bbc is bricking it. Its anti-Scottish agenda is so blatant it just doesn’t care that its once vaunted political balance is now a sick joke.
I agree Robert Graham it is time the SNP snubbed the BBC and told all the yoon press to get f/k as well.
That nice chap in the EU who tore Fudage to shreds should have his speech broadcasted to all of Scotland,even he knows our MSM is bought and paid for by the tories and he doesnt even live in the UK.
‘If Scotland *doesn’t* vote for independence in IndyRef2 after all that has happened – and is still happening – in Westminster and its environs since the Brexit vote, then we Scots really are too stupid….’
I think it would be more a case of,
‘There are powers at work in this country of which we have no knowledge. Do you understand?’– The Queen.
Nicola & Co. ultra busy on EU business. Collapsing Guffieland’s parliament getting ready to go on 2 month’s holiday.
Ken MacIntosh has stated Holyrood re-call at more or less a moments notice.
Well, well, well.
Call me Dave
Thanks for that call me Dave , if the Herald are still using the photograph of the Holocaust denier, given every man and his dog knows what was behind that silly flag, then there can be no other reasonable assumption that the Herald is an anti Semitic publication and promotes the lie that the Holocaust is a fabrication.
Clydebuilt
Kay Adams is a state sponsored propagandist, Just as every regime has its puppet press, then the English Broadcasting Service is a affront to the democratic aspiration of the nation that it tries to suppress. But no different, no better or worse than say North Korea, or the old Pravda.
So taking both together there is no gutter low enough that the Scottish metropolitan press will not hesitate to lie in. Personally I have given up on them, they do not represent or reflect the county I live in or its citizens. They speak a strange language I do not understand, its shrill tune painful to my ears.
If Cameron had included 16 / 17 year olds and EU Nationals re. Bexit voting he probably wouldn’t have found himself in this situation. More so if he had listened to oor Nicola. What a blinkered, arrogant smart e*rse.
Aplogies for the BBC link but worth posting just to listen to Nicola and Cameron.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29805045
BBC 24 tv news, Cammers looks awful, Sturgeon exact opposite, “arrives in Brussels for talks.”
Yes there was a change of tone from the Yoon press since last Thursday. However they seem to be reverting to type. Have their masters told them to stop talking up for Scotland?
@Nana
Angus Robertsons grasp of German is a lot better than mine. Pity would have liked to have heard that 🙂
A real European! Wonder if Dave or Boris can talk German LOL.
@Yesindyref2
See what you mean about Neil Walker. Bit of a dry read on just waking up, but thorough to be sure. Certainly his inclusion follows the same pattern politically that Mr Salmond used to set. When putting together any board of advisors, political compass was of no import, just getting the best and those fit for the task was paramount.
@Petra
Ayup, a second indyref will differ wildly in premise from indyref1, not least in this instance, it would be Scotland seeking to maintain a political union which a majority of the electorate values. How and ever, that irony aside, capital flight will be an issue which this time round works in our favour. One of the UKs major selling points in services was the ability to act as a door to the EU market from all points. Remember the ‘moving brass plaques’ debacle initiated by Nick Robinson’s car crash questions to Alex Salmond? ‘THAT’ in reverse.
Large financial institutions, services, and overseas industry (car manufacturers etc for example) still looking for an EU based friendly country with access to the single market, would find an independent Scotland with zero APD and low corporation tax a fairly attractive option all of a sudden.
Secondly, yes, England is our primary trading partner with something like £64bn in trade on the table, but negotiating trade deals and tariffs/no tariffs between nations is kinda what governments do. The idea that two countries would instantly cut off every item of trade between each other simply because one takes a huff is beyond ridiculous as an idea. Having said that, you know those halfwits in the media and Tory government will attempt to pull that one. They do so love to threaten.
Then there is the media itself and their publishers. This time I reckon they’re going to be somewhat divided. Those publishers have global interests. Their editorial staff in some instances have long term pro EU stances and ties. Its not outwith the bounds that this time the pro YES campaign won’t find itself up against 100% media opposition.
Lastly there is the undeniable evidence of the past near two years of fallout from indyref 1 as outlined in the Wee Black Book and culminating with the Brexit. The UK government and Better Together have defaulted on every single, pledge and assurance made to secure their victory of 21 months ago. THAT alone was always going to trigger the build up to indyref2 eventually never mind the constitutional and economic crisis we’re facing today from that final pillar crumbling.
So yeah, if there is to be an indyref2 in our near future, I think its going to be a whole different tone and approach from indyref1.
Finally, this from my formative years, makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I
The BBC is a foreign broadcaster and should be treated a such!
Nana @10.44:
Angus Robertson’s German is much better than mine, but I followed some of it. Liked his calm assurance: “I believe that in London they are beginning to understand that we in Scotland WILL be staying in Europe…”
@ Nana 10:44
Angus Robertson speaks very good German! I tried to transcribe it all but gave up as it takes too long and theres the occasional word I dont understand. Heres the first part:
Interviewer: Could the EU referendum break up the UK?
AR: Yes I think so. We are trying to maintain Scotland’s relationship with the EU – we are a European nation, we have a majority who voted to stay in the EU; it is for us democratically unacceptable to be taken out of the EU because a majority in England voted that way; the Scottish government has started talks with other European countries; we hope in time also with Austria; and with EU institutions?, but at the end of the day if we need an independence referendum to stay in the EU we will do that.
Interviewer: There is a debate whether Scotland can prevent the UK leaving the EU. Is that realistic?
(I paraphrase some of the rest)
AR: The UK is not recognising the fact that it is multi-nation state. A year ago we requested a quad-lock on Brexit but this plea was ignored.
Interviewer: The UK parliament has a majority against Brexit, will they block it?
AR: Brexit will go ahead because if it is blocked by parliament, UKIP will make huge gains at the next GE.
He is basically saying: its democratically unacceptable, Scotland is European, all avenues will be explored to keep Scotland in the EU, if the only way of doing that is to enter as an independent nation, we will have an independence referendum.
A little more on Portland Communications orchestration of the Corbyn coup. One of the masterminds is SLAB’s own Gregor Poynton. http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/28/truth-behind-labour-coup-really-began-manufactured-exclusive/
Greenland in reverse happens with true federalism or in their case with semi autonomy. That last is the important point as that requires full Devo Max with no pretence at it being reversible. The arrangement would have to be one where Scotland was an independent partner in the UK free to form it’s own international ties.
As to the doubts about Holyrood or Sturgeon being permitted to talk. They might not yet have the devolved powers to enter treaties but that doesn’t mean they’re gagged. Just the same as without official transfer they can’t legislate on reserved matters doesn’t mean they can be prevented from holding referenda on them.
There’s that Euro assertion again on BBC news channel. Scotland does not have to join the Euro.
Petra wrote: “Aplogies for the BBC link but worth posting just to listen to Nicola and Cameron.”
Petra, the BBC does not gain from us financially via direct links but BUM rags do. I know your link contains video footage but it’s always worth remembering to still archive those BBC links. Prevents them changing the wording of the original article and still allows access to any video footage by clicking on it.
Spread it wide and far Scotland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj2_ZdRjkBc
I have watched this about 20 times it gets better each time 🙂
Can I ask, if Scotland did become independent, what would be needed to obtain a Scottish passport? Would it be enough to have been born in the UK?
I know its from a few years ago but today it is once again relevant.
Macart,
Relocation. We also have the huge advantage of having lots of derelict industrial land ready and waiting. (Linwood, again?) and that they would be in a position to offer a good relocation deal to their existing experienced key staff.
@Glamaig
Thank you for that. Angus does calm assurance rather well and stresses facts when he needs to. Unlike Cameron and the eton messers who bludgeon their way through life.
@Pnr I guess they may be starting to understand the meaning of gehen und gehen Sie einfach schnell [translation via google Just go and go quickly]]
Glamaig says:
“(I paraphrase some of the rest)
AR: The UK is not recognising the fact that it is multi-nation state. ”
Thanks for that. It was beyond my ‘shopping and dining German’.
Angus is of course half German.
That point Angus makes is really at the heart Scotland’s constitutional issues.
WM behave as if the UK is just Great England. They don’t consider the unique multi-nation reality.
The reason why they think that is partly the asymmetry in the populations of England and the other nations.
In 1707 it was 1:5 comparing Scotland : E&W. Now it is 1:11.
@ Twist :
If you have a Scottish parent/grandfather then it’ll be automatic – you are (if you choose) a Scottish citizen already. If you’re English/Welsh then you can hold dual nationality.
If you don’t have Scottish ancestors then it’ll be based on residency & I’m not aware of what was proposed during indyref1, maybe someone else remembers?
Twist,
Passports are issued according to The International Civil Aviation Organization rules, national governments can have a say in whats allowed to be put inside, The UK government has already stated the UK passport that has EU written on it will still be in force until all issued passports have expired. it is expected a new design will be presented some time in the future.
The Scottish Government very sensible as usual have already said that they would issue a Scottish passport some time in the future and even then both passports would be used concurrently.
As has been seen with the rush to obtain Irish passports, that doesn’t mean if you hold one you lose your citizenship of the UK.
I’ll just leave this here:
Simon Nixon ?@Simon_Nixon 17m17 minutes ago
JP Morgan: Our base case is that Scotland will vote for independence and institute a new currency at that point.
Simon Nixon is chief European commentator for Wall Street Journal.
Go your own way Kezia, before it’s too late
https://archive.is/ltfRM
Fleetwood Mac: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ul-cZyuYq4
PS: Make what you will of this.
A cullen skink of an article with lots of red herrings stirred into the pot with maybee’s this and that even gives ‘RISE’ a nod FGS!
https://archive.is/NC7av
I believe that an independent Scotland in the EU would not be forced into joining the Euro but conveniently that is ignored.!
Has Gordon put his garlic necklace on and entered Holyrood yet?
Twist says:
“Can I ask, if Scotland did become independent, what would be needed to obtain a Scottish passport? Would it be enough to have been born in the UK?”
I seem to remember, perhaps from the White Paper, the proposal that it should be the same as Ireland ie at least one grandparent born in Scotland,
Strikes me as potentially a lot of people. After Indy, I think we could expect a few million extra folks applying from across the world. I know my mate in NZ with his Scots grandfather says he would.
Beaming
https://twitter.com/stephenac91/status/748092313407193089?lang=en-gb
@cearc
Good example.
Scotland is more than ready for investment in manufacturing industries. We have the government will, resources, expertise and the education base. This time round we let world know, we’re open for business. 🙂
galamcennalath @ 11:44
Scottish Passport = Scottish Tax Payer wherever they are in the world.
That seems fair to me.
It could also see a big improvement in the football team!
@Nana
Excellent Nana and I can’t spot an empire biscuit on any of the plates …or shortbread for that matter. 🙂
All good stuff and we’ll see it on Auntie’s tv …Oh!
————————————————————
@DerekM
Thanks for that never seen it until now.
Twist,
Presumably the same as proposed in Scotland’s Future. pp.271/272.
‘We plan that British Citizens habitually resident in Scotland on independence will be considered Scottish Citizens…Scottish born British citizens currently living outside of Scotland will also..
..other people will be able to apply. For example, citizenship by descent…who have a parent or grandparent who qualifies…Those with a demonstrable connection and have spent at least ten years living here at some stage, whether as a child or an adult…Migrants on qualifying visas will also have the option…
@ Nana says at 10:44 am …. ”Here is Angus on Austrian tv last night. Unfortunately no sub titles but sure there will be some wingers who understand.”
http://tvthek.orf.at/program/ZIB-2/1211/ZIB-2/13117502/Gespraech-mit-dem-schottischen-Politiker-Robertson/13117577
Brilliant. WELL DONE Angus. You lot are doing us proud.
I wonder if they’ve all been ‘preparing’ at Holyrood?
Taking lessons on learning to speak multiple languages … German, French, Italian, Spanish, Romanian etc, etc.
……………………………………………
@ DerekM says at 11:23 am …. ”Spread it wide and far Scotland. I have watched this about 20 times it gets better each time :)”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj2_ZdRjkBc
Hasn’t he had some brass neck winding up the fishermen and pretending that he supports them? You couldn’t make it up.
Spread it far and wide right enough in particular around the North East of Scotland.
Here’s a wee parable.
Currently we are commemorating the First World War. One of the lesser-known aspects of such conflicts is the psychology of troops attacking a defended position. If they remain under fire right up to the position itself, they will typically kill all defenders. (The defenders gamble that they will prevail, but if they fail, they will have “died hard”.) On the other hand, if advancing troops see the defenders throw down their weapons early and have not suffered too many casualties themselves, they will normally take prisoners and the defenders will survive. Somewhere in between there is a tipping point. I call this the “mercy distance”.
What relevance to us here and now? Not a question of human life or death, certainly, but rather the existential question of a concept: Scottish Unionism, with particular reference to the attacking/defending of it in the media (mainstream and social).
Where someone has taken a default position of defending the Unionist status quo, then after a series of challenges to their beliefs concedes that they were mistaken, they deserve respect for having had the courage to put up a fair defence and then the grace to concede the justness of their opponents’ case. Examples of this are Henry McLeish and (probably) J.K. Rowling. (The latter has had to put up with a lot of grief, not all of it fair by any means, so her conversion to the cause is all the more remarkable if it has indeed happened.) Despite everything, perhaps also The Daily Record. We shall see.
On the other hand, the bitter-enders who deploy lies and trickery to defend the indefensible deserve no sanction. Examples of this can be found in today’s headlines in The Daily Mail and The Daily Express. The continuation of these offensive comics in an independent Scotland is surely up for question.
After the EUref, and the expressed preference of the people of Scotland, the mercy distance must surely be approaching. Herald in particular please note. The paper made a promise (or was it a “vow”?) that in that event it would change to supporting independence, so at this crucial juncture to produce a headline echoing the vile tabloids is most definitely not appreciated.
Likewise for the BBC. Until now BBC Scotland has shown an observable Unionist bias, but it is quickly approaching the point where it will have to choose. A diehard approach will surely finish it in an independent Scotland. On the other hand, being prepared to stand up to their southern puppetmasters and just give independence a decent, fair shout might be enough to save their jobs and futures in broadcasting here. (Scotland 2016 in particular please note, while you are still on the air. What exactly have you got to lose?)
Gordon Brown has said that Scotland CAN have a federal devo-to-the-max deal with the EU, so there’s no need to leave the UK.
It isn’t The Vow it is Le Vow.
Remains to be seen if it will be on parchmentesque paper.
Strange UKOK days, toryboy world destroys UK economically, BBC Politics show, Ligger Neil totaly destroys Labour via Labour guest, with some mercy shown. He’s not a monster old Brillo but he doesn’t need to be now.
Meanwhile in his scotland region, another SLab chump says
Duncan Hothersall Retweeted Paul Mason
I hope you’re never forgiven for this tweet. While others seek solutions, you whip up hate.Duncan Hothersall added,
Paul Mason @paulmasonnews
172 MPs vote no confidence in Corbyn. That’s why the penultimate line of the Red Flag was written
28 retweets 46 likes
@ Nana Some snub Silver serviced snub’d, noo she would hiv been miffed if they had putout Tunnocks Teacakes lol.xx
@call me dave
One of the comments mention Cameron got water and hard tack yesterday haha
I think some special (federal?) arrangement with the EU could be arranged for Scotland short of full independence, but the UK would have to play ball and show some grace. And we know how likely that is, unless someone twists WM’s arm. This is why it is so important at this stage to make powerful friends in Europe. WM will soon come a begging to Europe for some form of face-saving deal. The EU response should be:
“So, you need our broad shoulders after all? Well, after all the shit you have dumped on us, If you want to deal with us now, you have to let Scotland go”.
(otherwise, piss off).:)
Gordon Brown is a greedy liar, who will say anything for money. Why doesn’t he just stop telling lies. No one is interested. .
Hope Christian Allard is trying to get onto French TV!
The SNP should be getting those who are fluent, like Angus Robertson, onto European TV putting our case to their public in their own languages.
So, so proud of Nicola & Co. Simply the best. She is taking away the sadness of the UK decision, and giving hope. Thanks for ever. It make folk greet. Wonderful.
PMQ’s
http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/24e95f20-d70d-40dd-9049-8a3b8cee2256
Just seen a pic on The Rev’s Twitter from Farage’s speech in Brussels.
Farage, “Most of you have never done a proper day’s work in your lives”
Behind him is Vytenis Andriukaitis, Lithuanian heart surgeon, hand on face presumably thinking ‘what a plonker’.
I am certain Farage will not be missed in Brussels.
Nana,
Bonnie picture, that.
Glamaig,
thanks.
Everyone, in the spirit of unity. People to feel sorry for today:
@alexmassie and @JamieRoss who are at Gordie’s speech.
Lord Turnball, who has the indycamp lot back in court,
Philip Sim ?@BBCPhilipSim 2h2 hours ago Edinburgh, Scotland
Just been given a copy of #IndyCamp affidavit signed “Christ, King of Scotland”. It notes that “I am the lawful owner of this entire world”.
He has just called for a short break. Bet he’s glad of that wig to pull hair out of.
@galamcennalath
I saw a tweet saying he was on yesterday, sorry no link. If I find one will put it up
Broon sticking his oar in again? And it worked out so well last time.
I think I speak for more than myself here, but mainly myself, when I say that Gordon Brown can f**k off. His catastrophic ‘interventions’ have been the source of so much pain and suffering. NOT this time!
No one else should ever have to suffer because of his colossal ego and appalling destructive ambition. If that fecker is allowed anywhere near this crisis, he can and WILL only make it worse. He should at all times be treated with the same disdain, contempt and mockery we reserve for the rest of the establishment who caused this clusterf**k.
Let’s stick to monitoring the main players, not the rodeo clowns and has beens.
For amusement value @PhilipSim has definitely got the plum reporting job today.
‘Mr Gemmill is on his feet now, asking to call a witness. Lord Turnbull notes that this hearing is being done via written statements.’
‘Mr McFarlane rises and says “peace be upon you” to Lord Turnbull. “We hope you have a good day.” “Do not repeat that,” judge tells him.’
Nicola arriving in Brussels this morn
https://twitter.com/tagesschau/status/748073340787695616
Petra says:
29 June, 2016 at 11:56 am
@ Nana says at 10:44 am …. ”Here is Angus on Austrian tv last night. Unfortunately no sub titles but sure there will be some wingers who understand.”
http://tvthek.orf.at/program/ZIB-2/1211/ZIB-2/13117502/Gespraech-mit-dem-schottischen-Politiker-Robertson/13117577
Ruby replies
I understood that the interviewer said he speaks good German and that Angus Robertson said Schottland wants to remain in Europe.
@ Nana says at 11:48 am …. ‘Beaming’
https://twitter.com/stephenac91/status/748092313407193089?lang=en-gb
And with a bubble coming out of the corner of her mouth saying ”We’d love to continue to be the EU’s number one supplier of oil (60% of EU oil reserves) and your second biggest gas supplier, even although we only account for 1% of the EU’s population. We might be ‘wee’ in relation to the EU’s population overall, but we’re not poor or stupid.
And can I remind you that Scotland has 25% of Europe’s tidal energy, 25% of wind power, 10% of wave energy and 33% of the EUs total hydrocarbon production.
Sorry what did you say. Eh? Oh right just sign on the dotted line. Righty-oh.
PMQ’s
“For heaven’s sake man GO”! says an animated CMD to Corbyn… 🙂
Angus Robertson calls out CMD on Brexit and reminds him about the Holyrood mandate + Sturgeon etal in Brussels.
A subdued CMD fobs him off. 🙂
Nobody has really seen that guys because it was never broadcasted in the UK and was before we really figured out just what the BUM was all about.
After all the enlightenment didnt start until about 2013 the stuff they have withheld from showing us about the EU is incredible.
If i remember rightly the headlines were all about Fudage and the UK standing up against the EU waste of money,and nothing mentioned about him not showing up to do his job that we pay him to do.
And this is the guy the fishermen think will save them,we really should keep our eye on the EU parliament its not as we have been told by certain tory pondscum and their pet media.
And is why i have always said we need to engage with the EU and not rely on what we have been told about it as it is all lies britnat lies.
A racist stood up to speak at the European Parliament and a fascist got up to support him: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-7vq
Gordon Brown: the ugly bloated face of britnat bastardness.
Christian Allard yesterday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ1NQ5ONY6g&feature=youtu.be
Angus Robertson’s mother is German. Many of the SNP politician can speak multiple languages. Most of them have had a good education and their familes have worked abroad.
Boris Johnston was brought up in Brussels in the EU, and has had privileges. His father was an EU diplomat. He has lied and turned his back, although he supports the EU. His greed and personal ambitions, are more important than the economy and vulnerable people. Boris Johnston, born in the US of Turkish/European ancestry, is a migrant.
The majority of the people in the UK wanted to stay in. Including the people who were not allowed to vote. The EU Referendum was a fraud.
@Petra
Not to mention retaining some kind of access to Scottish fishing waters, although obviously a much better deal for Scottish fishing than exists at present.
Is there such a bet as a bet that the bookies/pollsters favourite will not win?
PMQ’s:
Mike Japes MP labour puts in a word for more independent powers for the city of London.
A lukewarm CMD waffles it away.
I’m sure the remembrancer smiled and ticked a box in his notes.
I’m also sure it’s a question suggested to Mr Gapes by Sadiq Khan (mayor of London) to whom Sturgeon had a word a couple of days ago. 🙂
To be fair, there was a not dissimilar move in the Scottish referendum in ’97. Also, in indyref1 there appeared to be the start of a similar move which pressed the panic button and the purda ignoring panic measures taken by the dishonest Westminster cabal.
Of course, in the EU referendum a last minute Vow was not possible for reasons of the inertia of a body which has to seek agreement from 27 EU states, nor is it certain, even with accurate foresight as to repercussions, whether any such last minute bag of tricks would have been agreed to.
I think the EU has higher honesty standards as well.
Maybe Brown’s Vow had more impact on indyref1 than we are willing to crediot it with.
Luigi @12:01:
Dream on. This is the pusillanimus SLab line, as propounded by El Gordo, lately emerged from his gloomy cave.
It’s tosh, totally wishful thinking. The only purpose of it is to deflect and delay, then betray a la Smith. At best we would get some watered-down tinkering on the side, and more likely after the dirty deed of exit has been done, sweet FA.
Then the Scots get crowed at by the world, and the English in particular, for being such abject wusses.
What can El Gordo guarantee? Just like last time – NOTHING.
This diversion needs to be nailed down, shown up for the fantasy that it is, and binned toute de suite.
Once fooled, your fault. Twice fooled, my fault.
chic. odds on that there is ..
Money talks
http://www.cityam.com/244386/snp-has-met-top-city-lobbyist-seeks-establish-edinburgh?
Re: language skills. Part of Broon’s monumnetal achievement:
“In 2004, Labour dropped a requirement that all pupils learn at least one foreign language to GCSE standard. The consequence is that language learning in our state education sector is collapsing. They also axed the Foreign Office Language Centre, outsourcing diplomatic language teaching to ad hoc bodies and individuals. Yesterday’s report in The Daily Telegraph, which suggested few diplomats are fluent in the language of the country where they work, hinted at another of Gordon Brown’s legacies.”
I can see one potential result of the Labour tiff being the Coop MPs cutting ties. You might also get a floor crossing to the LDs.
This might actually result in the SNP being one of the largest opposition parties. As things stand though there are historical examples of PMs, if not governments, led by MPs who are not from the largest party. The only logical reason for excluding the SNP from that role might be EVEL. However even then EVEL doesn’t stop Scots MPs debating those matters. It’d also be incredibly bizarre if the Conservatives have any say in who their opposition is.
Labour front benches completely denuded. Don’t know who the two are behind Corbyn.
Corbyn points out Sturgeon and Gibraltar have started their own talks with EU.
It is a kind of creeping UDI. Yes!
Debate on the economy this afternoon. Good on them, pouring petrol on the flames.
http://www.scottishparliament.tv/
irish taoiseach addresses holyrood
erin gu brath
Everything is different now.
Gordon Brown is like a comedian playing clubs after a TV career which didn’t end well.
Bit like what’s in store for BBC Shortbread.
Totally OT but high trivia interest rating.
Saw a claim in the Irish Times that the HUH! Clap chant used by Iceland originated years ago in a section of the Motherwell following? Anyone confirm, illucidate?
http://tinyurl.com/ho628ag
I found this while watching Christian Allard.
It’s very interesting to hear what people in the rest of Europe are saying.
Regarding the question above on eligibility for a Scottish Passport. From the White paper…
• Scottish passports will be issued to all people who secure Scottish citizenship. British citizens “habitually resident” in Scotland will be considered Scottish citizens – as well as Scottish born British citizens living outside Scotland. It will also be open to those who have Scottish parents or grandparents, people who have lived here for 10 years, while migrants can apply for “naturalisation.”
• Border checks with England will not be put in place after independence, as the document sets out plans to remain part of the Common Travel Area (CTA) with the rest of the UK, Ireland and the Channel Islands.
• A points-based immigration system will be introduced in order to increase the number of migrants coming to Scotland, while immigration is being restricted in the UK. This could provide incentives for migrants to work in more remote areas where they are most needed.
Well that was an eloquent speech by the President of Ireland Michael D. Higgins.
A credit to the Scottish parliament to invite him and to Ireland / Scotland co-operation n the past and in the future too I hope.
@ Nana re Christian Allard. So glad your back, learning something new everyday, thank you.
Blethering with my other half and going on about goggsie broon and Vow2 and how we shouldn’t listen to that. He asked @what’s Nicola doing across the water then?’ We batted it about a bit and came to this conclusion:
We think she’s following “every path” in the full knowledge that none of it will come to pass and then the only answer will be Independence. Brilliant move if true.
What really pisses me off – well one of the things – is how the EBC eventually showed the standing ovation for Alyn Smith, but I’ve never seen the full statement from the beginning – wonder why? – oh…
@ Karmanaut Parchmentesque paper 99p ,press chicken breast onto paper & fry in dry pan Mmmmmm, dont tell Gordy.
@Valerie
There’s often been talk about UDI amongst the more “eager”, and moderates have of course said it needs to go the democratic route of Indy Ref 2.
However, if Westminster in its madness refuses a Holyrood majority request for Indy Ref 2, an idea mooted is that Holyrood does UDI for the specific purpose of holding Indy Ref 2. As long as that specific UDI was recognised – with perhaps the EU or its member states being the first to recognise that – then Indy Ref 2 without Section 30 would gain a lot more legitimacy, and far less likely to be challengeable in court. The only basis to challenge it then would be the legitimacy of the UDI, and the sole right of Scottish courts to hear any challenge.
All this makes such an emergency UDI more possible, even if not desirable. In my unqualified opinion of course!
It’s still there on the article page. It’s just not on the front page.
@Petra, I can just picture that bubble
@Liz Rannoch, good to be back but my it’s hectic. Things can change so quickly!
Hope you enjoyed your recent wee holiday up north.
I am off to Greece next week and events have overtaken me,
The pound has tanked and I pay more for Euros.
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=GBP&view=1W
And I can’t get a EU/Saltire lapel badge.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SCOTLAND-european-FRIENDSHIP-NATIONAL-ENAMEL/dp/B00CCCFLTO
Note the comment
“Currently unavailable.
We don’t know when or if this item will be back in stock.”
History is being made! So proud to be a witness.
As an aside. There is no way the SG could have pulled together the disparate group of advisors in the time available. Forward planning !
yesindyref2
As I have posted before.
UDI is the worst option for both, therefore I still believe that some kind of sanity will emerge which will prevent its use.
However, that belief is, admittedly less strong than it used to be given current events, especially after May becomes PM.
As I pointed out after the WMGE, if it comes to it, with 56 out of 59 MPs in WM, it is now possible that a mandate could be sought by them resigning en mass and restanding on one manifesto item, to wit:
“Upon election we will begin immediate negotiations with Westminster for Scottish independence. If Westminster refuses to engage in such negotiations, we reserve the right to declare independence unilaterally.”
schrodingers cat says:
29 June, 2016 at 12:59 pm
http://www.scottishparliament.tv/
irish taoiseach addresses holyrood
erin gu brath
Ruby replies
I was initially confused by your link but I figured it out.
http://tinyurl.com/j22yk7w
Robert Kerr,
Badges,put a note on OT and ask Briandtt if he has anything suitable.
Motherwell link? Chic, I posted this on previous link.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/the-origin-of-iceland-s-incredible-viking-war-chant-motherwell-1.2702816?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Decide for yourself.
Ta Tinto
Chic, 😎 .
From Der Spiegel
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/brexit-so-kann-schottland-in-der-eu-bleiben-a-1100321.html
Theoretically, there are two ways in which Scotland could escape the Proposed referendum on United Kingdom membership of the European Union. The backgrounds in the overview.
How could Scotland remain in the EU?
It’s a complicated question, experts assess different. First of all, Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and is thus approximately a status as a German State. When independence referendum in 2014, around 55 per cent of Scots had voted for the whereabouts in the UK .
Sturgeon could invoke the Scotland Act 1998, which sets out the powers of the Scottish Parliament. There indeed is that Foreign Affairs are actually governed from London. But according to Article 29, it is reserved Edinburgh to implement EU legislation. If this passage is not changed, Scotland could continue to take EU law, even if the whole of the UK is no longer part of the Union and adopted different laws.
Scotland could keep a small “light” -EU membership and be geared more to Brussels than to London. The direct impact, however, would be significant: That about freedom of travel by EU citizens then within the United Kingdom – between Scotland and England – ending, seems hardly feasible. Dispute would programmed.
How could this occur in practice?
Such a thing has never happened before, so say all the experts, it is moving on shaky ground. It’s political convention, that it must have the consent of the Scottish Parliament to change the Scotland Act. But ultimately, the British government could overrule Edinburgh. Parliament in Westminster, where the governing conservatives won a majority, is the supreme legislative power and has a right of final decision held.
But such a decision would not be a formality, but a massive intervention in the sovereignty of the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish newspaper ‘The Herald’ is also borne in mind that the vast majority of MPs in Westminster itself for an EU whereabouts. The referendum was also for Parliament anyway not binding but is only a recommendation.
To prevent the Scots seek another independence referendum, according to the newspaper London could refrain from Scotland require the withdrawal from the EU. John Curtice, a political scientist at the University of Strathclyde, which holds theoretically possible, but also highly unrealistic.
And if all that does not work?
The second option would be another referendum on independence . As an independent state Scotland could be a new member of the EU. Theoretically the Parliament in London actually agree a Scottish referendum. Before the first Scottish referendum Premier Cameron had this power of decision in the so-called “referendum Agreement” transferred however to the Scottish Parliament. As this decision would turn in another Scottish-up, is open.
In the Scottish Parliament Sturgeon currently lacks two seats for an absolute majority. However, it is likely that supporters would find in the other groups.
How does it go from here?
Robert Ford, a political scientist from the University of Manchester, says the Scottish Government will try to instigate so much trouble as possible with the Conservatives in Westminster. “Because then the consent for independence among Scots will continue to rise.”
A new survey, already nearly 60 percent are in favor of the separation of the UK.
@ Nana says at 12:45 pm …. ”Money talks.”
http://www.cityam.com/244386/snp-has-met-top-city-lobbyist-seeks-establish-edinburgh?
WoW. England having to import more than it exports, unlike Scotland. If they lose control over their financial services, in particular being out of the EU, they’re finished. What’s left for them?
Hi Robert Kerr.
Here are three of the ‘crossed flags’ designs we do currently.
https://sites.google.com/site/webgaffer/home/badge-designs/UN-Saltire-black-red-crop.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1OXQ0sQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1UdIYY0.jpg
Only problem is that Pete, who actually makes the badges (I just print off the artworks) is no affie weel and will be in hospital till the weekend so I don’t know if he has any stocks.
Ooops, well it is sehr rustig, though it seems German newspapers are much easier to read than when I was there – half the Germans couldn’t read them either (overgrown adjectives and nouns).
Help! This news is all happening so fast, if I doze off we might be independent before I wake up and I’ll have missed it all. Curses.
Hilfe!
Mein Luftkissenfahrzeug ist voller Aale!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s22PZRXAIY
There were two songs that were never off the radio when I was in Würzburg during the summer of 1968.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmQ2CxrhNgA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqOUIPN52B8
The German version of Leapy Lee’s “Kleine Pfeile” was heavily pushed as well but I can’t find the German version on YouTube. Strangely enough, “Beat Club”, I understand, was a German TV programme but they didn’t use the German version either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctdulpy4NH8
That wasn’t a great one I linked to. I was trying to remember one a few years back which went down a storm in Germany – taking the p out of themselves. It might come back to me some time.